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8/6-8/8 Red Sox @ Blue Jays Thread
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 9:17:28 GMT -5
What a mess the past 10 games have caused. At the rate they're going the Yankees and Jay's might be ahead of the Sox by next weekend. The starting pitching is a disaster right now. Robles and Davis aren't any good either. I basically said this when Bloom punted at the deadline to preserve prospects (other than Casas and Duran) who might not be ready for 3-5 years. If ever. I was roundly ridiculed: I’d personally rather have Schwarber for Aldo than Bryant for Aldo/Yorke I would too, if Schwarber was ready to go and if you could tell me he'll be the same guy after a hammy injury that's had him out since July 4. Hell, by August 15 this team could be 3-5 games out.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 7, 2021 9:25:28 GMT -5
we got some rough seas boys. Batten down the hatches and wait for the storm to pass.
Make sure your cellphones are secure. We don't need any others falling to the bottom of the ocean.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 7, 2021 9:50:31 GMT -5
What a mess the past 10 games have caused. At the rate they're going the Yankees and Jay's might be ahead of the Sox by next weekend. The starting pitching is a disaster right now. Robles and Davis aren't any good either. I basically said this when Bloom punted at the deadline to preserve prospects (other than Casas and Duran) who might not be ready for 3-5 years. If ever. I was roundly ridiculed: I would too, if Schwarber was ready to go and if you could tell me he'll be the same guy after a hammy injury that's had him out since July 4. Hell, by August 15 this team could be 3-5 games out. I would protect more than Casas and Duran. I have about 6 - 8 guys I would hang onto. Mayer isn't going anywhere. I'd hang onto Yorke and I would also hang onto Blaze Jordan (I know others would disagree on that one). I'd try to hang onto Bello and Winkelman and would have to think on Groome. Jimenez might be the other one I would try to hang onto although he'd be the bottom of the list. Everybody else is expendable, but it has to make sense. I mean if Peter Gammons is right and the Twins wanted either Kutter Crawford or some other prospect at his level for freaking Hansel Robles, then what were the other teams asking for in trades for players that aren't disasters like him? I think given where the Sox are, to sustain long-term, they needed to hang onto their top 8 - 10 guys (they're may be some really young talent that they're sky high on that I don't know as much about admittedly), but the question then comes about the level beyond that. Obviously you don't waste that on the Hansel Roble's of the world. If Bloom was holding back on parting with those players in deals for players who could have helped because he wanted to maintain depth or stay under the luxury tax, I'd be annoyed with that. It's also very possible that those players flat out weren't in demand and that a team like the Yankees who were parting with talents in that tier for them, that those talents were more highly regarded within the industry....so in other words if Kutter Crawford, Winckowski, Jeisson Rosario, etc. aren't enough to get a viable reliever or a better option at 1b than Dalbec, then Bloom has work to do to make the farm system more robust so that their mid-level prospects do become more attractive. In 2018, they gave up Jalen Beeks, Ty Buttrey, and Santiago Espinal, mid level talents that wouldn't nor shouldn't bankrupt a system. Of course this doesn't get to the heart of the problem they're facing now. All of their starters have hit the skids at roughly the same time and their best hitters really aren't hitting. What trade(s) fix that? All they can do is hope that replacing Richards and Perez with Sale and Houck work, that the return of Brasier to the pen, and the return of Schwarber and Arroyo help the lineup, and that JDM and company get out of their funk, because if the Big 3 on offense can't figure it out and Eovaldi, E-Rod, Pivetta keep getting torched too often, then it doesn't matter what trade would have gotten made. At this point the problems go beyond not making the trade to address 1b directly and the pitching. That may have started the mental letdown perhaps, but the issues are bigger than that. It's the stuff that some of us worried about but were told to stop being negative, etc. The pitching has come crashing back to earth and the offense carried by the big 3 is no longer being carried by anybody anymore. Can't win that way. This skid will end at some point, but how big a hole will they dig themselves? Will they have frittered away a 9.5 game lead over NY and an even bigger lead over Toronto? Will they be behind NY, Toronto, and Oakland, needing to pass two of those teams? Have they already been in first place for the last time this season? Teams have good stretches and bad stretches all the time but this one is absolutely killing this team and threatening to unravel everything great they have built up this season. I wasn't expecting a contender this season, but frittering away a playoff spot like this would be damn disappointing. And if they do, you watch, Henry and company will open up their wallets. I don't think losing like in that manner and taking the hit of not improving the team beyond an injured Schwarber and the fans' backlash to it, fair or not, would sit well with them.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 9:51:21 GMT -5
Anyone have any numbers on how far under the luxury tax this team will be in the offseason? They need pitching bad. I'm assuming it does depend on if JD opts in or not. Plus you need to think about using those savings to extend Devers and X. I don't want to see Perez or Richards pitch another game with this team. I don't think the lack of spending for high end talent is on Bloom at all. This is all ownership not wanting to go over the tax. The Sox have to adjust to the future of never going over the tax in order to contend. It can be done and we see it with the Rays but its just going to take a little longer than just going out there and blowing away Max Scherzer with money in the offseason. I just hope that this doesn't become an issue when they have to pony up for Devers and Xander. Prediction: If they don’t extend Devers this off season, he’s going to free agency. Put yourself in his and his agent’s position and look at the recent market. Why wouldn’t he ride it out for a Mookie/Tatis-like stupid money offer, or even better to the highest bidder, especially immediately post-CBA agreement when traditionally purse-strings get loosened by owners. Personally, I thought they might’ve blown this last off-season, but with the Covid nonsense throwing everything out of whack, they might’ve gotten a mulligan. He’s about to get generational money in Arb. If he wants gansta bucks, he’ll go to free agency unless Boston comes up with a cool $375M. IMHO.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 10:04:14 GMT -5
I basically said this when Bloom punted at the deadline to preserve prospects (other than Casas and Duran) who might not be ready for 3-5 years. If ever. I was roundly ridiculed: I would protect more than Casas and Duran. I have about 6 - 8 guys I would hang onto. Mayer isn't going anywhere. I'd hang onto Yorke and I would also hang onto Blaze Jordan (I know others would disagree on that one). I'd try to hang onto Bello and Winkelman and would have to think on Groome. Jimenez might be the other one I would try to hang onto although he'd be the bottom of the list. Everybody else is expendable, but it has to make sense. I mean if Peter Gammons is right and the Twins wanted either Kutter Crawford or some other prospect at his level for freaking Hansel Robles, then what were the other teams asking for in trades for players that aren't disasters like him? I think given where the Sox are, to sustain long-term, they needed to hang onto their top 8 - 10 guys (they're may be some really young talent that they're sky high on that I don't know as much about admittedly), but the question then comes about the level beyond that. Obviously you don't waste that on the Hansel Roble's of the world. If Bloom was holding back on parting with those players in deals for players who could have helped because he wanted to maintain depth or stay under the luxury tax, I'd be annoyed with that. It's also very possible that those players flat out weren't in demand and that a team like the Yankees who were parting with talents in that tier for them, that those talents were more highly regarded within the industry....so in other words if Kutter Crawford, Winckowski, Jeisson Rosario, etc. aren't enough to get a viable reliever or a better option at 1b than Dalbec, then Bloom has work to do to make the farm system more robust so that their mid-level prospects do become more attractive. In 2018, they gave up Jalen Beeks, Ty Buttrey, and Santiago Espinal, mid level talents that wouldn't nor shouldn't bankrupt a system. Of course this doesn't get to the heart of the problem they're facing now. All of their starters have hit the skids at roughly the same time and their best hitters really aren't hitting. What trade(s) fix that? All they can do is hope that replacing Richards and Perez with Sale and Houck work, that the return of Brasier to the pen, and the return of Schwarber and Arroyo help the lineup, and that JDM and company get out of their funk, because if the Big 3 on offense can't figure it out and Eovaldi, E-Rod, Pivetta keep getting torched too often, then it doesn't matter what trade would have gotten made. At this point the problems go beyond not making the trade to address 1b directly and the pitching. That may have started the mental letdown perhaps, but the issues are bigger than that. It's the stuff that some of us worried about but were told to stop being negative, etc. The pitching has come crashing back to earth and the offense carried by the big 3 is no longer being carried by anybody anymore. Can't win that way. My current binkies - excluding the MLB club, because Houck, Whitlock, Xander, Devers, Verdugo, Barnes and Sale aren’t going anywhere - are Casas, Duran, Mayer (I didn’t include him because he can’r be traded for a year) and Groome. There’s a couple others I like - Bello, Seabold and Ort - but it depends who you can get back and who you have to give. We don’t know that. What we do know is this team got virtually no immediate help at the deadline and was in first place. Now they’re dropping like a rock. Meanwhile, NYY, TB and TOR all got help and are essentially streaking. I get building for the future, but unless they retain Xander and Devers, I don’r see a “core” that can carry them back into first anytime in the next 3 years. We can all dream, but the truth is, the GM got no effective help for a team that was headed for a Division title, and now may not even make the Wild Card. In most corporate environments, that’s a firing offense. Bloom has rope and Henry’s confidence for now, but he still doesn’t have the horses on the farm. And I contend this ownership won’t sit for another 3 years of sub-standard returns, especially if it affect revenues. Then again, there are several people here who didn't like the prospect haul given for Sale, and I can only imagine the outcry if we were all here for the Pedro deal (Carl Pavano and Tony Armas!? Are they crazy!?!").
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 7, 2021 10:13:16 GMT -5
I would protect more than Casas and Duran. I have about 6 - 8 guys I would hang onto. Mayer isn't going anywhere. I'd hang onto Yorke and I would also hang onto Blaze Jordan (I know others would disagree on that one). I'd try to hang onto Bello and Winkelman and would have to think on Groome. Jimenez might be the other one I would try to hang onto although he'd be the bottom of the list. Everybody else is expendable, but it has to make sense. I mean if Peter Gammons is right and the Twins wanted either Kutter Crawford or some other prospect at his level for freaking Hansel Robles, then what were the other teams asking for in trades for players that aren't disasters like him? I think given where the Sox are, to sustain long-term, they needed to hang onto their top 8 - 10 guys (they're may be some really young talent that they're sky high on that I don't know as much about admittedly), but the question then comes about the level beyond that. Obviously you don't waste that on the Hansel Roble's of the world. If Bloom was holding back on parting with those players in deals for players who could have helped because he wanted to maintain depth or stay under the luxury tax, I'd be annoyed with that. It's also very possible that those players flat out weren't in demand and that a team like the Yankees who were parting with talents in that tier for them, that those talents were more highly regarded within the industry....so in other words if Kutter Crawford, Winckowski, Jeisson Rosario, etc. aren't enough to get a viable reliever or a better option at 1b than Dalbec, then Bloom has work to do to make the farm system more robust so that their mid-level prospects do become more attractive. In 2018, they gave up Jalen Beeks, Ty Buttrey, and Santiago Espinal, mid level talents that wouldn't nor shouldn't bankrupt a system. Of course this doesn't get to the heart of the problem they're facing now. All of their starters have hit the skids at roughly the same time and their best hitters really aren't hitting. What trade(s) fix that? All they can do is hope that replacing Richards and Perez with Sale and Houck work, that the return of Brasier to the pen, and the return of Schwarber and Arroyo help the lineup, and that JDM and company get out of their funk, because if the Big 3 on offense can't figure it out and Eovaldi, E-Rod, Pivetta keep getting torched too often, then it doesn't matter what trade would have gotten made. At this point the problems go beyond not making the trade to address 1b directly and the pitching. That may have started the mental letdown perhaps, but the issues are bigger than that. It's the stuff that some of us worried about but were told to stop being negative, etc. The pitching has come crashing back to earth and the offense carried by the big 3 is no longer being carried by anybody anymore. Can't win that way. My current binkies - excluding the MLB club, because Houck, Whitlock, Xander, Devers, Verdugo, Barnes and Sale aren’t going anywhere - are Casas, Duran, Mayer (I didn’t include him because he can’r be traded for a year) and Groome. There’s a couple others I like - Bello, Seabold and Ort - but it depends who you can get back and who you have to give. We don’t know that. What we do know is this team got virtually no immediate help at the deadline and was in first place. Now they’re dropping like a rock. Meanwhile, NYY, TB and TOR all got help and are essentially streaking. I get building for the future, but unless they retain Xander and Devers, I don’r see a “core” that can carry them back into first anytime in the next 3 years. We can all dream, but the truth is, the GM got no effective help for a team that was headed for a Division title, and now may not even make the Wild Card. In most corporate environments, that’s a firing offense. Bloom has rope and Henry’s confidence for now, but he still doesn’t have the horses on the farm. And I contend this ownership won’t sit for another 3 years of sub-standard returns, especially if it affect revenues. Then again, there are several people here who didn't like the prospect haul given for Sale, and I can only imagine the outcry if we were all here for the Pedro deal (Carl Pavano and Tony Armas!? Are they crazy!?!"). I get what you're saying - and I forgot to add Seabold to the list of guys I'd hang onto - I would have tried Ort before David or Robles - that's for sure. But that doesn't address the fact that all five of their starters have been getting bombed the past couple of weeks. How do trades address that? Trades don't stop Eovaldi or E-Rod from struggling or fix the problems of JDM, who is stranding guys left and right, or X, who hasn't had the power since his wrist seemingly became an issue.
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Post by kjkramer on Aug 7, 2021 10:38:20 GMT -5
Hopefully we get rolling today. I am all for a Sale, Pivetta, Houck, Whitlock, Eovaldi rotation the rest of the way with the rest in the pen for long relief. Zero reason not to flip roles and let Whitlock and Houck start NOW. They can at least be starters. Erod can be long relief and Richard's and Martin mob up or follow Houck/Whitlock if needed. I am done.
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Post by kjkramer on Aug 7, 2021 10:39:46 GMT -5
the decline of JD before our eyes. Yep. Very very obvious
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 10:45:35 GMT -5
My current binkies - excluding the MLB club, because Houck, Whitlock, Xander, Devers, Verdugo, Barnes and Sale aren’t going anywhere - are Casas, Duran, Mayer (I didn’t include him because he can’r be traded for a year) and Groome. There’s a couple others I like - Bello, Seabold and Ort - but it depends who you can get back and who you have to give. We don’t know that. What we do know is this team got virtually no immediate help at the deadline and was in first place. Now they’re dropping like a rock. Meanwhile, NYY, TB and TOR all got help and are essentially streaking. I get building for the future, but unless they retain Xander and Devers, I don’r see a “core” that can carry them back into first anytime in the next 3 years. We can all dream, but the truth is, the GM got no effective help for a team that was headed for a Division title, and now may not even make the Wild Card. In most corporate environments, that’s a firing offense. Bloom has rope and Henry’s confidence for now, but he still doesn’t have the horses on the farm. And I contend this ownership won’t sit for another 3 years of sub-standard returns, especially if it affect revenues. Then again, there are several people here who didn't like the prospect haul given for Sale, and I can only imagine the outcry if we were all here for the Pedro deal (Carl Pavano and Tony Armas!? Are they crazy!?!"). I get what you're saying - and I forgot to add Seabold to the list of guys I'd hang onto - I would have tried Ort before David or Robles - that's for sure. But that doesn't address the fact that all five of their starters have been getting bombed the past couple of weeks. How do trades address that? Trades don't stop Eovaldi or E-Rod from struggling or fix the problems of JDM, who is stranding guys left and right, or X, who hasn't had the power since his wrist seemingly became an issue. Putting Bryant or Rizzo behind JDM might result in more fastballs and less urgency, the latter not just for him, but the rest of the team. As for starters, I didn't want Turner, and wouldn't have given up Casas in a Berrios deal. But Berrios or Scherzer immediately deletes one of Perez or Richards, Houck deletes the other and then Sale shows up next week. Remember, in that clubhouse, these guys know how rare first place is. They don't give a rip about some guys in A or AA who cannot help them right now. Sure, it's on that clubhouse right now, but when the organization says to them, "Yeah, you're on your own in the thick of it for another 15-20 days." Meanwhile, they have eyes. They see everyone else got better. That send a message, too. Bloom had first place in his hands. And he lost the initiative. If I could see a Division-winning core in the near future, I wouldn't mind so much, but I can't. Everyone else seems to be on board, which is fine too. I can't want for the Sox to win the Division next year and have such a great core it will go on for the next three or four years and every one here tell me I was wrong. I actually would love that, but I zero belief it's in the cards.
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Post by greenmonster on Aug 7, 2021 11:03:28 GMT -5
So if I am following things correctly, all the guys who were critical to hang onto at the trade deadline are now candidates to trade in the off-season?
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 7, 2021 11:27:33 GMT -5
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Post by kjkramer on Aug 7, 2021 11:38:15 GMT -5
No loss the way he is playing. He is no longer feared by opposing pitchers
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 12:00:45 GMT -5
So if I am following things correctly, all the guys who were critical to hang onto at the trade deadline are now candidates to trade in the off-season? No, they will all be clutched tightly by Bloom.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 7, 2021 12:05:20 GMT -5
Connor Wong? Are they going to put Plawecki at first?
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Post by manfred on Aug 7, 2021 12:05:29 GMT -5
Ok, confession. I’m trying to be cool, but if the Sox don’t at least split today, I might begin to panic. I’m not proud of that, but here we are.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 7, 2021 12:06:26 GMT -5
Even if JD is entering his decline we’re only on the hook one more year. The Yankees still have a million years left on the Stanton contract.
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Post by jmei on Aug 7, 2021 12:06:56 GMT -5
Please move on from the trade deadline discussion. It has come up on the gameday thread every damn day for more than a week now. There is nothing new to add and it clutters up the thread.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 7, 2021 12:12:43 GMT -5
Ok, confession. I’m trying to be cool, but if the Sox don’t at least split today, I might begin to panic. I’m not proud of that, but here we are. We really need to win both actually with Richards on the hill tomorrow.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 7, 2021 12:20:58 GMT -5
Ok, confession. I’m trying to be cool, but if the Sox don’t at least split today, I might begin to panic. I’m not proud of that, but here we are. That’s exactly where I’m at
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 7, 2021 12:25:37 GMT -5
Hernandez 8 Verdugo 7 Bogaerts 6 Devers 5 Renfroe 9 Plawecki 2 Vazquez DH Dalbec 3 Arauz 4
Against Robbie Ray, tough on lefties
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,940
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 7, 2021 12:26:33 GMT -5
Anyone have any numbers on how far under the luxury tax this team will be in the offseason? They need pitching bad. I'm assuming it does depend on if JD opts in or not. Plus you need to think about using those savings to extend Devers and X. I don't want to see Perez or Richards pitch another game with this team. I don't think the lack of spending for high end talent is on Bloom at all. This is all ownership not wanting to go over the tax. The Sox have to adjust to the future of never going over the tax in order to contend. It can be done and we see it with the Rays but its just going to take a little longer than just going out there and blowing away Max Scherzer with money in the offseason. I just hope that this doesn't become an issue when they have to pony up for Devers and Xander. Prediction: If they don’t extend Devers this off season, he’s going to free agency. Put yourself in his and his agent’s position and look at the recent market. Why wouldn’t he ride it out for a Mookie/Tatis-like stupid money offer, or even better to the highest bidder, especially immediately post-CBA agreement when traditionally purse-strings get loosened by owners. Personally, I thought they might’ve blown this last off-season, but with the Covid nonsense throwing everything out of whack, they might’ve gotten a mulligan. He’s about to get generational money in Arb. If he wants gansta bucks, he’ll go to free agency unless Boston comes up with a cool $375M. IMHO. According to Fangraphs ( www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/payroll/red-sox), the RS have an estimated $136.2M in commitments against the LT threshold for 2022. But that doesn't include the raises for arb guys - mainly Devers. It's also important to note that we don't what the threshold will be - or if there even will be one - in 2022. It depends on the new CBA. I haven't looked at the FG estimates in a few weeks, but I see they now have us above the 2021 threshold of $210M. That's a big issue and a significant mistake by CB, if true.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 12:28:08 GMT -5
Ok, confession. I’m trying to be cool, but if the Sox don’t at least split today, I might begin to panic. I’m not proud of that, but here we are. That’s exactly where I’m at
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 7, 2021 12:29:09 GMT -5
That’s exactly where I’m at Honestly that could be me if I owned a sick leather jacket, I would be convinced
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 12:45:12 GMT -5
Prediction: If they don’t extend Devers this off season, he’s going to free agency. Put yourself in his and his agent’s position and look at the recent market. Why wouldn’t he ride it out for a Mookie/Tatis-like stupid money offer, or even better to the highest bidder, especially immediately post-CBA agreement when traditionally purse-strings get loosened by owners. Personally, I thought they might’ve blown this last off-season, but with the Covid nonsense throwing everything out of whack, they might’ve gotten a mulligan. He’s about to get generational money in Arb. If he wants gansta bucks, he’ll go to free agency unless Boston comes up with a cool $375M. IMHO. According to Fangraphs ( www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/payroll/red-sox), the RS have an estimated $136.2M in commitments against the LT threshold for 2022. But that doesn't include the raises for arb guys - mainly Devers. It's also important to note that we don't what the threshold will be - or if there even will be one - in 2022. It depends on the new CBA. I haven't looked at the FG estimates in a few weeks, but I see they now have us above the 2021 threshold of $210M. That's a big issue and a significant mistake by CB, if true. So I guess Noah Sydergaard and Jon Gray are not going to be options. I was all gunned up for Thor, too, now that he's had his arm bionically adjusted.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 7, 2021 12:46:00 GMT -5
Honestly that could be me if I owned a sick leather jacket, I would be convinced Could be a fashion que from the (baseball) gods, sir!
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