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8/10-8/12 Red Sox vs. Rays Thread
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Post by station13 on Aug 11, 2021 8:51:17 GMT -5
Barnes has just been so bad lately Without those sticky stuff, he can't snap off a successful curveball.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 11, 2021 9:04:15 GMT -5
People know they are still 15 games above .500 right? I’m as pissed off as anybody after last night but the rhetoric im seeing online is kind of hilarious I understand the need to stay positive but being positive just for the sake of being positive works like being negative just for the sake of being negative. The Sox were 23 games over .500 just a dozen games ago, and no they won't stay at a pace of 2-10 the rest of the year, but the first issue is that a team that had a nice margin at the top of the AL East has now very likely blown the ability to finish first and avoid the coin toss game. I'd say that if the Rays win one of the next two games, that the Sox' shot at winning the East is about over. Honestly, when you compare the two teams side-by-side, not on paper necessarily but in the field, TB is the better team. So we're looking at a team that we hope can play the coin toss game, preferrably at Fenway. At this point, that seems like the more achievable task, but they've put themselves in a position where huge leads over NY and Toronto and a sizeable lead over Oakland have dwindled and what was a certain playoff spot is now a sweat it out proposition that made go the way of 2011 (and yeah, I know had their been two wild card spots that year the Sox would have made the post-season), as the Sox are one of four teams vying for two spots and you can now make arguments either way as to whether or not they make it. That's what the frustration is. At this point, given what we've been seeing, I wouldn't be surprised if Tampa sweeps this series, too. Maybe the Sox get Sale back and get their act together against Baltimore and play better from there on, although with another 6 games left to go against a better Tampa team and a concern about regression to mean against the Yankees, who when not playing head-to-head against the Sox, have been a more successful team, the road to the playoffs won't be easy. It'll get better, but I would think Toronto will eventually play to its talent level on a more consistent basis and that will leave one spot among Oakland, NY, and the Sox. Cross your fingers. And the way they look, unless things change dramatically, even making the playoffs, it's hard to see how they stack up against TB, Houston, or the ChiSox or even if they can win the coin toss game. Just a short while ago, the Sox looked like an overachiever that could surprise. Now it looks drastically different, which is a tough pill to take.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 11, 2021 9:29:26 GMT -5
Barnes has just been so bad lately If he wants to reach out to me, I've figured out a couple ways for pitchers to use sticky stuff and not get caught. Also, bonus third method pro tip: Not seeing these umps checking the catcher's mitts.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,648
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Post by cdj on Aug 11, 2021 9:46:44 GMT -5
People know they are still 15 games above .500 right? I’m as pissed off as anybody after last night but the rhetoric im seeing online is kind of hilarious It's not about that record - the record today in isolation. It's about trends, how they've been playing - how they've been losing - and what the players are doing recently. The rhetoric is appropriate for what's been going on the last dozen games. The rhetoric I’m seeing online is that bloom is terrible at his job and that they’ll have a losing record by the end of the year, I don’t think that’s necessarily “appropriate” I totally understand frustration and they are playing like crap at the worst possible times. I just think it goes way overboard sometimes
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Post by greenmonster on Aug 11, 2021 9:47:49 GMT -5
Just my opinion but I think alot of pitchers have made adjustments with their stick stuff (most likely not Barnes). Umpires were/are checking hat, glove, belt. Might be my imagination but seems like pitchers are fiddling with their hair and their back pockets more than before.
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Post by patford on Aug 11, 2021 10:53:10 GMT -5
I love on the podcast how Chris mentions the Sox have been streaky and maybe the day off will kick-start the team against the Rays and Ian says nothing and there is a telling moment of dead air.
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Post by greenmonster on Aug 11, 2021 11:12:01 GMT -5
I love on the podcast how Chris mentions the Sox have been streaky and maybe the day off will kick-start the team against the Rays and Ian says nothing and there is a telling moment of dead air. I didn't see last nights game but saw a reference (in this thread) about a possible confrontation between JDM and Barnes. Has there been anything more come out about this? I might be reading to much into things..... About a week or so ago, Cora made some public comments (presumably in response to the teams perception of the FO support at the trade deadline) "It doesn't matter who believes in you, these are the dog days of August, you just have to find a way to play harder". A few days after that, Bogaerts responded with "Apparently, we have to play harder". Now possible words between JDM and Barnes.... Seems like there could be some behind the scenes clubhouse drama
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Post by incandenza on Aug 11, 2021 11:57:44 GMT -5
I think the Barnes diagnoses are overestimating the effect of the sticky stuff ban and underestimating the effect of Cora bringing him into every single 3-run game in the 9th inning when the team had like a 97% win expectancy since April.
It is maybe not a coincidence that his recent collapse started with his being brought into 3 games in 2 days (and now 4 consecutive games).
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 11, 2021 12:27:34 GMT -5
I think the Barnes diagnoses are overestimating the effect of the sticky stuff ban and underestimating the effect of Cora bringing him into every single 3-run game in the 9th inning when the team had like a 97% win expectancy since April. It is maybe not a coincidence that his recent collapse started with his being brought into 3 games in 2 days (and now 4 consecutive games).
Agreed. Barnes has a pattern of good starts (although not as dominating as this season's) and a pattern of declining at the end. If Cora were Joe Torre we'd say that Barnes was getting Proctored (in honor of the overuse of Scott Proctor by Torre). I don't place blame on all Cora. This is where some legit bullpen help at the deadline could have helped. It's also symptomatic of how many close games the Sox have played this year. Blowout wins are few and are between and for a long while the Sox, even when they lost, were in every game. So I do buy the overuse as more of an issue than the spin thing, but the weird thing is that Barnes DID have a long all-star break in a way. There was a lot of concern here that his pitching in the all-star game would deprive him of 3 days off and that the Thursday game afterwards would hinder his rest as well, but instead that game got canceled, and the Sox had a bunch of games where he wasn't needed and he did get about a five or six day break, so in a way that refutes the point of overwork, but I still think that the totality of the workload, even with the little vacation, has played a part. I don't know which Barnes we see the rest of the way. I remember Chapman pitching lights out and then suddenly imploding and he is still shaky as hell. I don't know how well Barnes recovers from this for the duration of this season. Wouldn't be shocked to see him dominate the first half of next season.
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Post by patford on Aug 11, 2021 14:15:23 GMT -5
I think the Barnes diagnoses are overestimating the effect of the sticky stuff ban and underestimating the effect of Cora bringing him into every single 3-run game in the 9th inning when the team had like a 97% win expectancy since April. It is maybe not a coincidence that his recent collapse started with his being brought into 3 games in 2 days (and now 4 consecutive games).
Agreed. Barnes has a pattern of good starts (although not as dominating as this season's) and a pattern of declining at the end. If Cora were Joe Torre we'd say that Barnes was getting Proctored (in honor of the overuse of Scott Proctor by Torre). I don't place blame on all Cora. This is where some legit bullpen help at the deadline could have helped. It's also symptomatic of how many close games the Sox have played this year. Blowout wins are few and are between and for a long while the Sox, even when they lost, were in every game. So I do buy the overuse as more of an issue than the spin thing, but the weird thing is that Barnes DID have a long all-star break in a way. There was a lot of concern here that his pitching in the all-star game would deprive him of 3 days off and that the Thursday game afterwards would hinder his rest as well, but instead that game got canceled, and the Sox had a bunch of games where he wasn't needed and he did get about a five or six day break, so in a way that refutes the point of overwork, but I still think that the totality of the workload, even with the little vacation, has played a part. I don't know which Barnes we see the rest of the way. I remember Chapman pitching lights out and then suddenly imploding and he is still shaky as hell. I don't know how well Barnes recovers from this for the duration of this season. Wouldn't be shocked to see him dominate the first half of next season. The people blaming Cora are the same people blaming Cora for leaving starters in too long. People just wildly striking out in all directions. The Sox aren't good. They never were. It's a bridge year.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 11, 2021 14:21:01 GMT -5
Agreed. Barnes has a pattern of good starts (although not as dominating as this season's) and a pattern of declining at the end. If Cora were Joe Torre we'd say that Barnes was getting Proctored (in honor of the overuse of Scott Proctor by Torre). I don't place blame on all Cora. This is where some legit bullpen help at the deadline could have helped. It's also symptomatic of how many close games the Sox have played this year. Blowout wins are few and are between and for a long while the Sox, even when they lost, were in every game. So I do buy the overuse as more of an issue than the spin thing, but the weird thing is that Barnes DID have a long all-star break in a way. There was a lot of concern here that his pitching in the all-star game would deprive him of 3 days off and that the Thursday game afterwards would hinder his rest as well, but instead that game got canceled, and the Sox had a bunch of games where he wasn't needed and he did get about a five or six day break, so in a way that refutes the point of overwork, but I still think that the totality of the workload, even with the little vacation, has played a part. I don't know which Barnes we see the rest of the way. I remember Chapman pitching lights out and then suddenly imploding and he is still shaky as hell. I don't know how well Barnes recovers from this for the duration of this season. Wouldn't be shocked to see him dominate the first half of next season. The people blaming Cora are the same people blaming Cora for leaving starters in too long. People just wildly striking out in all directions. The Sox aren't good. They never were. It's a bridge year. Are you sure these are the same people? Are you sure this is what they're doing?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 11, 2021 14:35:57 GMT -5
Agreed. Barnes has a pattern of good starts (although not as dominating as this season's) and a pattern of declining at the end. If Cora were Joe Torre we'd say that Barnes was getting Proctored (in honor of the overuse of Scott Proctor by Torre). I don't place blame on all Cora. This is where some legit bullpen help at the deadline could have helped. It's also symptomatic of how many close games the Sox have played this year. Blowout wins are few and are between and for a long while the Sox, even when they lost, were in every game. So I do buy the overuse as more of an issue than the spin thing, but the weird thing is that Barnes DID have a long all-star break in a way. There was a lot of concern here that his pitching in the all-star game would deprive him of 3 days off and that the Thursday game afterwards would hinder his rest as well, but instead that game got canceled, and the Sox had a bunch of games where he wasn't needed and he did get about a five or six day break, so in a way that refutes the point of overwork, but I still think that the totality of the workload, even with the little vacation, has played a part. I don't know which Barnes we see the rest of the way. I remember Chapman pitching lights out and then suddenly imploding and he is still shaky as hell. I don't know how well Barnes recovers from this for the duration of this season. Wouldn't be shocked to see him dominate the first half of next season. The people blaming Cora are the same people blaming Cora for leaving starters in too long. People just wildly striking out in all directions. The Sox aren't good. They never were. It's a bridge year. I'm not blaming Cora, much, anyways. Maybe 20%? When the Sox are constantly playing close games and in position to win them, of course you go to Barnes, and it's not like he was pitching 3 or 4 days in a row or 7 of 8. I think Cora tried to protect him as much as he could. I am quite tired of starters unable to last six innings consistently, but that's more a baseball problem than a Red Sox issue, and the short season from last year added to the problem. As an aside, I think it's crazy how they groom starters to throw 100 MPH for about five innings. They don't even pitch anymore and pitching to contact is certainly frowned upon. And they can never face a lineup the 3rd time around because the numbers don't like it. I know the game evolves, but on some level it feels like it's gone too far. Pitchers used to be conditioned to pitch 115 - 120 pitches consistently and could get 7 innings out of it. This generation of starters aren't used to facing a lineup for the 3rd time around so they do post lousy numbers when forced to do so. I wish we saw starters being groomed to pitch 7, but they're not not, so of course they're going to struggle. I don't have an answer for it. I think that's part of what Theo Epstein is trying to dig into. But it in turns creates a situation where bullpen workloads are so heavy and what's happening now with Barnes is what I believe to be a ripple effect of all the relievers being overworked. Taylor is forced into the 5th and 6th inning instead of being in the 7th or 8th so Ottavino has to take the 8th and isn't available to be a 9th inning guy often enough when Barnes really does need a breather. It takes at least 4 relievers to get through a win making it tougher for the high leverage relievers to stay fresh. I think that's more responsible for what ultimately happens with Barnes, more than a Cora thing. I'd love to see starters go 7, but I understand why Cora is yanking them early. I've seen a number of times where the starter looks good and I think he can easily go 7 and then suddenly he loses it between pitches 60 - 80 and all of the sudden he's out after 5.1 IP. That's kind of what happened to E-Rod. I thought he'd easily go 7, but he started to run out of gas. 30 years ago he would have kept on pitching and made it through 7 without getting torched.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 11, 2021 14:38:30 GMT -5
On another note, an idea seems to have taken root that this team was somehow never good and only did well this season by playing above their level or through sheer luck. (It's a version of the "search for their true soul" line of analysis that always drives me nuts; their record in August is not somehow a deeper revelation of their essence than was their record in June.)
But it was never that mysterious. They didn't really stand out superlatively, but if you every checked the team stats around the league, their offense was about 4th or 5th best in the AL, and their starting rotation was about 4th or 5th best in the AL, and their defense was about 4th or 5th best, and their bullpen was even a little better than that. They were just generally good across the board, without major weaknesses (other than the bottom of the batting order, which were made up for by the strength at the heart of the order).
At least, that was the case for most of the season. Now their offense is 8th in the AL by wRC+ (though down only a few points from where they had been; there are a lot of teams around that level) and the starters are 8th by ERA (but 4th by FIP). So they've fallen off a little in those categories, though the rotation has already been overhauled and hopefully the offense is getting it together too.
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Post by aznpopsical on Aug 11, 2021 14:43:30 GMT -5
like if you're a fan of bloom's way of building a team
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Post by manfred on Aug 11, 2021 14:47:41 GMT -5
like if you're a fan of bloom's way of building a team I’ll let you know how I feel when he does it.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 11, 2021 16:20:51 GMT -5
like if you're a fan of bloom's way of building a team Dude, you liked your own post? really? I mean, that's allowed, but...
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Post by fanofredsox on Aug 11, 2021 16:36:08 GMT -5
Josh Fleming LHP 9-5, 4.12 ERA, 57 SO Nathan Eovaldi RHP 9-7, 4.07 ERA, 124 SO
TB Lineup
B Lowe (L) 2B J Choi (L) 1B N Cruz (R) DH A Meadows (L) LF W Franco (S) SS R Arozarena (R) RF J Wendle (L) 3B B Phillips (L) CF F Mejía (S) C
Bos Lineup
K Hernández (R) 2B H Renfroe (R) RF X Bogaerts (R) SS R Devers (L) 3B J Martinez (R) DH K Plawecki (R) C M Gonzalez (S) LF B Dalbec (R) 1B J Duran (L) CF
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 11, 2021 16:43:33 GMT -5
Guaranteed win tonight ! Thank you !!
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Post by incandenza on Aug 11, 2021 16:53:53 GMT -5
Marwin, eh? Does Verdugo *really* need to spend this much time with his newborn child? I mean, it's not like the kid's gonna remember...
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Post by blizzards39 on Aug 11, 2021 16:56:58 GMT -5
Marwin, eh? Does Verdugo *really* need to spend this much time with his newborn child? I mean, it's not like the kid's gonna remember... Pretty sure he is nicked and fatigued. This was a defacto 4 day DL stint. Xander needs a kid to. And JD twins
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Post by blizzards39 on Aug 11, 2021 17:12:50 GMT -5
Guaranteed win tonight ! Thank you !! As the infamous Robert Sink once said. “Tonight is the night of nights”
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Post by tizzle on Aug 11, 2021 17:15:39 GMT -5
Vazquez on bereavement list. Don't know details, but condolences.
More selfishly, that unfortunately means Cora didn't necessarily choose to start playing Plawecki more.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 11, 2021 18:04:28 GMT -5
Well, the games have gone from must-see TV to something akin to an evolving horror flick. Hopefully the ghost-hunters make their appearance at some point.
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cutz
Veteran
Posts: 2,325
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Post by cutz on Aug 11, 2021 18:05:42 GMT -5
Think our Sox can do something different tonight?
Like WIN?
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Post by manfred on Aug 11, 2021 18:06:56 GMT -5
Richards is mad about going to the bullpen? Has he not watched the Sox when Garrett Richards pitches?
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