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9/6-9/8 Red Sox vs. Rays Thread
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Post by patford on Sept 7, 2021 8:47:42 GMT -5
I have to say that the Iglesias signing is the first Bl, that's way worse than 16 errors are the only reason.oom move that I didn't even want to wait to see. He does not belong here and I have no idea what Bloom has in mind. -21 DRS. Good grief that's way worse than it being a factor of his 16 errors alone. Mr' Bobbles tonight. They have nothing to lose by signing him. He can be DFA as soon as Bogaerts is back. Teams often have good luck by picking up former players. Shaw has had a couple of moments.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 7, 2021 8:57:21 GMT -5
I have to say that the Iglesias signing is the first Bl, that's way worse than 16 errors are the only reason.oom move that I didn't even want to wait to see. He does not belong here and I have no idea what Bloom has in mind. -21 DRS. Good grief that's way worse than it being a factor of his 16 errors alone. Mr' Bobbles tonight. They have nothing to lose by signing him. He can be DFA as soon as Bogaerts is back. Teams often have good luck by picking up former players. Shaw has had a couple of moments. Maybe the Sox can bring back Jake Peavy to take a start, too, while they're at it.
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Sept 7, 2021 10:49:16 GMT -5
I hope what I say isn't too unpopular. I didn't come across any postgame comments about yesterday's performance from Chris Sale. Everyone points to Verdugo's unfortunate error in the 4th - and that certainly was the turning point. And I'm not defending Verdugo. However Chris had Cruz 0-2 and could not put him away leading to Cruz hitting the ball to Verdugo 5 pitches later (only Sale's 75th pitch, 19th of the inning). Similarly in the first inning, Chris had Cruz 0-2 before leaving the ball up and Cruz cracked it for a sharp single to right to drive in TB's first run. Maybe Cruz hits Sale - I didn't look to see the history. I guess my point is, it was obvious Chris didn't have his best stuff - and the Rays benefited from some weak contact for sure. He had runners on except for the 2nd inning - he battled into the 4th where having thrown 5 pitches to the first 2 hitters, and was 1 out away from a clean 4th. I'm sure he felt staked to a 7-1 lead, he needed to shut down the Rays and at least get through 5. But Chris is our ace! I am spoiled where I expect him to succeed - where I don't have that feeling if it is E-Rod, Nate, Pivetta, Houck, Richards, Perez in a similar spot. I get it he is still coming back from TJ. But we really needed a better performance from him yesterday too! The stakes were high, and he needed to be better. Again not absolving the mistakes everyone else made - many of those were egregious. Just think Chris's inability to get it done yesterday is flying under the radar. I'm sure he feels the same. Love Chris Sale - no one else I'd rather go to war with!
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Post by manfred on Sept 7, 2021 10:56:46 GMT -5
I hope what I say isn't too unpopular. I didn't come across any postgame comments about yesterday's performance from Chris Sale. Everyone points to Verdugo's unfortunate error in the 4th - and that certainly was the turning point. And I'm not defending Verdugo. However Chris had Cruz 0-2 and could not put him away leading to Cruz hitting the ball to Verdugo 5 pitches later (only Sale's 75th pitch, 19th of the inning). Similarly in the first inning, Chris had Cruz 0-2 before leaving the ball up and Cruz cracked it for a sharp single to right to drive in TB's first run. Maybe Cruz hits Sale - I didn't look to see the history. I guess my point is, it was obvious Chris didn't have his best stuff - and the Rays benefited from some weak contact for sure. He had runners on except for the 2nd inning - he battled into the 4th where having thrown 5 pitches to the first 2 hitters, and was 1 out away from a clean 4th. I'm sure he felt staked to a 7-1 lead, he needed to shut down the Rays and at least get through 5. But Chris is our ace! I am spoiled where I expect him to succeed - where I don't have that feeling if it is E-Rod, Nate, Pivetta, Houck, Richards, Perez in a similar spot. I get it he is still coming back from TJ. But we really needed a better performance from him yesterday too! The stakes were high, and he needed to be better. Again not absolving the mistakes everyone else made - many of those were egregious. Just think Chris's inability to get it done yesterday is flying under the radar. I'm sure he feels the same. Love Chris Sale - no one else I'd rather go to war with! His results were poor. But… his luck was worse. And he seemed to be sitting around 95. For a guy just coming back from TJ, he looked good to me. His slider lacked bite, perhaps. But big picture, I feel like this bodes well for next year. Sale looks like he will be elite again, which was never guaranteed. Sure, if he struck more guys out, they likely win. But a pitcher should be able to pitch to weak contact and win, too. I put him pretty low on my goat list.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 7, 2021 11:36:48 GMT -5
I hope what I say isn't too unpopular. I didn't come across any postgame comments about yesterday's performance from Chris Sale. Everyone points to Verdugo's unfortunate error in the 4th - and that certainly was the turning point. And I'm not defending Verdugo. However Chris had Cruz 0-2 and could not put him away leading to Cruz hitting the ball to Verdugo 5 pitches later (only Sale's 75th pitch, 19th of the inning). Similarly in the first inning, Chris had Cruz 0-2 before leaving the ball up and Cruz cracked it for a sharp single to right to drive in TB's first run. Maybe Cruz hits Sale - I didn't look to see the history. I guess my point is, it was obvious Chris didn't have his best stuff - and the Rays benefited from some weak contact for sure. He had runners on except for the 2nd inning - he battled into the 4th where having thrown 5 pitches to the first 2 hitters, and was 1 out away from a clean 4th. I'm sure he felt staked to a 7-1 lead, he needed to shut down the Rays and at least get through 5. But Chris is our ace! I am spoiled where I expect him to succeed - where I don't have that feeling if it is E-Rod, Nate, Pivetta, Houck, Richards, Perez in a similar spot. I get it he is still coming back from TJ. But we really needed a better performance from him yesterday too! The stakes were high, and he needed to be better. Again not absolving the mistakes everyone else made - many of those were egregious. Just think Chris's inability to get it done yesterday is flying under the radar. I'm sure he feels the same. Love Chris Sale - no one else I'd rather go to war with! I just don't know how you can be upset with Sale's performance at all. He didn't have his best stuff, and yet was still good enough to hold a good offense to what should have been 1 run despite being dinked to death with terrible BABIP luck. His ERA/FIP/xFIP line for the game was 2.45/0.71/3.62.
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Sept 7, 2021 13:12:44 GMT -5
I hope what I say isn't too unpopular. I didn't come across any postgame comments about yesterday's performance from Chris Sale. Everyone points to Verdugo's unfortunate error in the 4th - and that certainly was the turning point. And I'm not defending Verdugo. However Chris had Cruz 0-2 and could not put him away leading to Cruz hitting the ball to Verdugo 5 pitches later (only Sale's 75th pitch, 19th of the inning). Similarly in the first inning, Chris had Cruz 0-2 before leaving the ball up and Cruz cracked it for a sharp single to right to drive in TB's first run. Maybe Cruz hits Sale - I didn't look to see the history. I guess my point is, it was obvious Chris didn't have his best stuff - and the Rays benefited from some weak contact for sure. He had runners on except for the 2nd inning - he battled into the 4th where having thrown 5 pitches to the first 2 hitters, and was 1 out away from a clean 4th. I'm sure he felt staked to a 7-1 lead, he needed to shut down the Rays and at least get through 5. But Chris is our ace! I am spoiled where I expect him to succeed - where I don't have that feeling if it is E-Rod, Nate, Pivetta, Houck, Richards, Perez in a similar spot. I get it he is still coming back from TJ. But we really needed a better performance from him yesterday too! The stakes were high, and he needed to be better. Again not absolving the mistakes everyone else made - many of those were egregious. Just think Chris's inability to get it done yesterday is flying under the radar. I'm sure he feels the same. Love Chris Sale - no one else I'd rather go to war with! I just don't know how you can be upset with Sale's performance at all. He didn't have his best stuff, and yet was still good enough to hold a good offense to what should have been 1 run despite being dinked to death with terrible BABIP luck. His ERA/FIP/xFIP line for the game was 2.45/0.71/3.62. But it wasn't a great performance. Do you think Sale thought his performance was up to his standards? I bet he thought he should have been better in certain points in the game. I'm guessing today he thinks he should have fanned Cruz (up 0-2, then 5 pitches) before the fly ball to Verdugo. And that's one of main reasons I love the guy. Idk, maybe then tip your hat to N.Cruz? He had a big day. Frustrating - he hadn't been doing much for them before this.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 7, 2021 13:14:22 GMT -5
I have to say that the Iglesias signing is the first Bl, that's way worse than 16 errors are the only reason.oom move that I didn't even want to wait to see. He does not belong here and I have no idea what Bloom has in mind. -21 DRS. Good grief that's way worse than it being a factor of his 16 errors alone. Mr' Bobbles tonight. They have nothing to lose by signing him. He can be DFA as soon as Bogaerts is back. Teams often have good luck by picking up former players. Shaw has had a couple of moments. Yeah it strikes me as them being THAT desperate for a functional shortstop that they were willing to sign him for even a week just to shore up the defense. If he'd been healthy at the time the COVID guys all went on the IL, I bet Downs would've been up, his brutal offensive performance be damned. Wouldn't surprise me if they crunched numbers and found that his defense was slumping early or something but that he's recovered. Just a guess though.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 7, 2021 13:18:18 GMT -5
Just checked the standings and yesterday's loss only counted as one loss. Phew! Sox are 4-0-1 in their last five series and still have a chance to win this one. Their GG-caliber CF (the one who leads the team in WAR, not the one batting .150 in Milw.) should be back tonight. Their best 2B and unofficial team captain should both be right behind him. LFG.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 7, 2021 13:31:31 GMT -5
I just don't know how you can be upset with Sale's performance at all. He didn't have his best stuff, and yet was still good enough to hold a good offense to what should have been 1 run despite being dinked to death with terrible BABIP luck. His ERA/FIP/xFIP line for the game was 2.45/0.71/3.62. But it wasn't a great performance. Do you think Sale thought his performance was up to his standards? I bet he thought he should have been better in certain points in the game. I'm guessing today he thinks he should have fanned Cruz (up 0-2, then 5 pitches) before the fly ball to Verdugo. And that's one of main reasons I love the guy. Idk, maybe then tip your hat to N.Cruz? He had a big day. Frustrating - he hadn't been doing much for them before this. Ask yourself how you would have felt about Sale's performance if Verdugo had made the very easy play he should have made, in a game the Red Sox would have gone on to win 9-4 or whatever. Would you have been disappointed? Would you have even mentioned it? Or would the story have been that Sale showed his ace mettle by giving up only weak contact and getting out of a jam when he had to?
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Post by vokuhila on Sept 7, 2021 13:56:32 GMT -5
They have nothing to lose by signing him. He can be DFA as soon as Bogaerts is back. Teams often have good luck by picking up former players. Shaw has had a couple of moments. Yeah it strikes me as them being THAT desperate for a functional shortstop that they were willing to sign him for even a week just to shore up the defense. If he'd been healthy at the time the COVID guys all went on the IL, I bet Downs would've been up, his brutal offensive performance be damned. Wouldn't surprise me if they crunched numbers and found that his defense was slumping early or something but that he's recovered. Just a guess though. DRS and UZR hate Iglesias (-22 and -8.7UZR/150 respectively) statcast has him at pretty much average (-1 OAA). That's still a far cry from his magician days, but maybe not as bad as we think. Once the COVID IL guys return it will be like watching The Purge...maybe they pull the old switcheroo and turn Danny Santana into Jose Iglesias...
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 7, 2021 13:59:58 GMT -5
I am fine with Sale. I am not fine with our defense. We aren't doing the details well this year - defense, baserunning, etc. That, and not bringing in runners in scoring position. It was a team effort of a loss, but I put Sale at the lower end of responsibility.
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Sept 7, 2021 14:15:19 GMT -5
But it wasn't a great performance. Do you think Sale thought his performance was up to his standards? I bet he thought he should have been better in certain points in the game. I'm guessing today he thinks he should have fanned Cruz (up 0-2, then 5 pitches) before the fly ball to Verdugo. And that's one of main reasons I love the guy. Idk, maybe then tip your hat to N.Cruz? He had a big day. Frustrating - he hadn't been doing much for them before this. Ask yourself how you would have felt about Sale's performance if Verdugo had made the very easy play he should have made, in a game the Red Sox would have gone on to win 9-4 or whatever. Would you have been disappointed? Would you have even mentioned it? Or would the story have been that Sale showed his ace mettle by giving up only weak contact and getting out of a jam when he had to? You can do what ifs you want to but it's meaningless, because I can counter that Sale and the defense could have coughed it up in the 5th(!). Yeah maybe he gives up a few more dribblers in the infield, then a mishandle by an infielder, then Boom a shot over the bleacher seats. So what. Look at it this way. Cole is going in the Bronx tonight against the surging Jays. If you are a Yankees fan, what are your expectations? You expect Cole to get big outs in big spots, in a big game for them right? If he doesn't - doesn't he deserve SOME scrutiny? He's your ace!
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Post by incandenza on Sept 7, 2021 14:39:13 GMT -5
Ask yourself how you would have felt about Sale's performance if Verdugo had made the very easy play he should have made, in a game the Red Sox would have gone on to win 9-4 or whatever. Would you have been disappointed? Would you have even mentioned it? Or would the story have been that Sale showed his ace mettle by giving up only weak contact and getting out of a jam when he had to? You can do what ifs you want to but it's meaningless, because I can counter that Sale and the defense could have coughed it up in the 5th(!). Yeah maybe he gives up a few more dribblers in the infield, then a mishandle by an infielder, then Boom a shot over the bleacher seats. So what. Look at it this way. Cole is going in the Bronx tonight against the surging Jays. If you are a Yankees fan, what are your expectations? You expect Cole to get big outs in big spots, in a big game for them right? If he doesn't - doesn't he deserve SOME scrutiny? He's your ace! I would agree with you that if Sale had pitched worse (by giving up a long homer rather than a botched easy flyout), then he would have been deserving of a more negative assessment. But what's the point in that? I cited FIP/xFIP and BABIP to provide the clearest read on the quality of his performance. If you want to be old school look at his ERA - only 1 earned run! 6 Ks and 1 BB in 5 innings!
"He's an ACE!" 'Ace' is not a metaphysical category; it's not like he's failed to live up to his unique purpose on earth as an ACE. He's just a really good pitcher doing the best he can, and all in all he did his job very well yesterday. "He's supposed to get it done in big spots." He got it done as much as he was capable of and Verdugo let him down. Meanwhile, the Yankees have gone 14-11 in games Cole has started. Apparently he hasn't been coming up big for them with regularity - does that mean he's not an "ace"?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 7, 2021 14:43:10 GMT -5
I think if warranted, "Sale should've pitched better because he's Sale" can have merit.
I think "Sale should have struck Cruz out instead of giving up a long fly ball" is pretty nitpicky and a shade unrealistic.
Keep in mind it was his first start on 4 days' rest since July 25, back when he was still on a pretty low pitch count.
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Post by patford on Sept 7, 2021 15:55:33 GMT -5
I think if warranted, "Sale should've pitched better because he's Sale" can have merit. I think "Sale should have struck Cruz out instead of giving up a long fly ball" is pretty nitpicky and a shade unrealistic. Keep in mind it was his first start on 4 days' rest since July 25, back when he was still on a pretty low pitch count. I'd completely missed that. Pitching him on 4 days rest was a mistake. They need to bring him along with kid gloves.
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Sept 7, 2021 15:57:20 GMT -5
You can do what ifs you want to but it's meaningless, because I can counter that Sale and the defense could have coughed it up in the 5th(!). Yeah maybe he gives up a few more dribblers in the infield, then a mishandle by an infielder, then Boom a shot over the bleacher seats. So what. Look at it this way. Cole is going in the Bronx tonight against the surging Jays. If you are a Yankees fan, what are your expectations? You expect Cole to get big outs in big spots, in a big game for them right? If he doesn't - doesn't he deserve SOME scrutiny? He's your ace! I would agree with you that if Sale had pitched worse (by giving up a long homer rather than a botched easy flyout), then he would have been deserving of a more negative assessment. But what's the point in that? I cited FIP/xFIP and BABIP to provide the clearest read on the quality of his performance. If you want to be old school look at his ERA - only 1 earned run! 6 Ks and 1 BB in 5 innings!
"He's an ACE!" 'Ace' is not a metaphysical category; it's not like he's failed to live up to his unique purpose on earth as an ACE. He's just a really good pitcher doing the best he can, and all in all he did his job very well yesterday. "He's supposed to get it done in big spots." He got it done as much as he was capable of and Verdugo let him down. Meanwhile, the Yankees have gone 14-11 in games Cole has started. Apparently he hasn't been coming up big for them with regularity - does that mean he's not an "ace"?
To be more accurate he only pitched 3.2 innings - not 5, 10 hits (granted maybe half didn't reach the outfield). Whatever. I'd like to wind it up here. I accept that I am in the minority; perhaps the only - I had a feeling that was going to be the case anyway. If you go back, my point wasn't that Sale was the reason they lost. That was a team loss if there ever was one. But Sale was among the starting 9 (or 10) out there yesterday. Yet I'm not hearing even a little shade being cast his way. Funny thing is, I think Chris Sale would agree with me - that he could have and should have done better. I think it's OK to sometimes be critical of our favorites. That's all. Peace.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 7, 2021 16:03:34 GMT -5
I would agree with you that if Sale had pitched worse (by giving up a long homer rather than a botched easy flyout), then he would have been deserving of a more negative assessment. But what's the point in that? I cited FIP/xFIP and BABIP to provide the clearest read on the quality of his performance. If you want to be old school look at his ERA - only 1 earned run! 6 Ks and 1 BB in 5 innings! "He's an ACE!" 'Ace' is not a metaphysical category; it's not like he's failed to live up to his unique purpose on earth as an ACE. He's just a really good pitcher doing the best he can, and all in all he did his job very well yesterday. "He's supposed to get it done in big spots." He got it done as much as he was capable of and Verdugo let him down. Meanwhile, the Yankees have gone 14-11 in games Cole has started. Apparently he hasn't been coming up big for them with regularity - does that mean he's not an "ace"?
To be more accurate he only pitched 3.2 innings - not 5, 10 hits (granted maybe half didn't reach the outfield). Whatever. I'd like to wind it up here. I accept that I am in the minority; perhaps the only - I had a feeling that was going to be the case anyway. If you go back, my point wasn't that Sale was the reason they lost. That was a team loss if there ever was one. But Sale was among the starting 9 (or 10) out there yesterday. Yet I'm not hearing even a little shade being cast his way. Funny thing is, I think Chris Sale would agree with me - that he could have and should have done better. I think it's OK to sometimes be critical of our favorites. That's all. Peace. I get your point and I do think that Sale would agree with you. He only got 11 outs. He was hurt by BABIP and rotten defense that cut his outing short. I mean if Verdugo catches that ball there's a reasonable chance he gets through the 5th. I think things snowballed on him. He needed that out and the breather to get in the dugout and it got botched. He wasn't very good yesterday but not as bad as it wound up being. He was not ace-like yesterday to put it accurately. Still he pitched well enough to give them an effective five and dive performance that should have left the Sox up by a lot or runs but with a bullpen needing to cover at least four innings. I would say on the list of culprits in yesterdays' Bad News Bears performance, I would say there are about 10 other guys more responsible than Sale for blowing yesterday's game. BTW, you're not the only person watching that felt the game was slipping away yesterday. The lead did feel like it was gone after that Bad News Bear play in the 4th. Don't think that makes you a negative Nancy. More it was prescient. Sometimes we're right about stuff and sometimes we're wrong, but when the team plays poorly like it did yesterday the result wasn't shocking. I didn't see much of the game yesterday but I saw the Sox needlessly give away a run yesterday when Motter dropped JDM's throw and when given another chance to get out of it, the Sox gave up the 2 out run, which was an inning after the Sox failed to capitalize on a rally. So when the Sox hit a HR and gave that HR back right away, I didn't feel that lead would hold. And when the Sox failed to win in the last of the 9th, it wasn't hard to guess that it wasn't going to work out in the 10th. When they're going good they find a way to win those games but when they play poorly you kind of expect they'll lose, and that's what they were doing yesterday, playing poor fundamental baseball.
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Sept 7, 2021 16:40:37 GMT -5
Kiké's return (in CF) is a godsend!
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Post by incandenza on Sept 7, 2021 17:04:59 GMT -5
Kiké's return (in CF) is a godsend! Oh for it to have come one day sooner...
BTW, I stand by comment above about yesterday's loss being basically a case of bad luck more than some failure, moral or otherwise, on the part of the team. But if the metric for "worst loss of the season" is "number of times I've been briefly put in a sour mood simply be recalling a game in the 24 hours after it ended," then yesterday's was definitely the worst loss of the season.
So: time for a palate cleanser! That's the nice thing about baseball - tomorrow is always another day.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,648
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Post by cdj on Sept 7, 2021 17:15:37 GMT -5
We’re our middle infield away from the ideal lineup
Hernandez 8 Schwarber 3 Martinez DH Devers 5 Renfroe 9 Verdugo 7 Vazquez 2 Iglesias 6 Arauz 4
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,648
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Post by cdj on Sept 7, 2021 18:20:20 GMT -5
We already doing this blue?
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 7, 2021 18:26:17 GMT -5
really fast 1st, both pitchers on.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 7, 2021 18:32:49 GMT -5
Eddie without the crispness of the first. Wow.
really need a DP here.
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Post by jmei on Sept 7, 2021 18:35:58 GMT -5
Inexcusably bad defensive play from Renfroe. Just can’t play with that kind of attitude given where they are in the standings.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 7, 2021 18:36:08 GMT -5
another mental error. An ERod implosion.
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