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Red Sox vs. Rays 2021 ALDS Gameday Thread
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Oct 10, 2021 22:02:32 GMT -5
And the Rays can't complain TOO much about that call because that would've only been one run for them.
EDIT: ... and it was 2-run dong for Vazquez
Especially since Pivetta struck out the guy after Keiermayer. Like you said the Rays could have made the play moot if the next batter (Zunino) delievered a single - 2 runs. It's not as if the play gave the Red Sox an out they shouldn't have gotten. Pivetta still had to get out of it. I get it the Rays were on the receiving end of some bad luck, but that's baseball. We've all seen things over the years where a play happens and a team makes out because of a "by rule" situation. Also, like you mentioned, Patino gave it up - walking Renfroe after being ahead in the count, and then surrendereing a homer to someone how hasn't hit one since.....?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 10, 2021 22:03:17 GMT -5
Bob Montgomery on line 3 to state his case. EDIT: Just checked and Jimmie Foxx caught 42 games for the Sox...
I'd take Gedman all day, every day. There were a couple of old time players who belong on the list too. When I was a kid, the other kids were trying to imitate Ted Williams (from the right side). I always tried to imitate Sammy White catching. Yes the same Sammy White as the bowling alley at the rotary in Boston (If it's still there). I'd take White over Gedman and Vazquez. Montgomery was a backup. ADD: For me Pudge Tek White Vazquez Gedman That's about it. The entire plethora of catchers after White were awful. Russ Nixon, Bob Tillman, Hayward Sullivan, et al. That really sucked because those were the Yogi, Howard, Blanchard years for the Yankees. For a couple of years, the Yankees carried 3 catchers that were all better than anything the Sox had. Like everything else Yankees though, that was last millennium.
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Post by benzinger on Oct 10, 2021 22:11:12 GMT -5
who do you start tomorrow? ERod? Perez? Erod for the start. Hopefully he can give you at least 4. Perez might be in the mix tomorrow, if only because he’s rested. Ottavino due to get some work, too. Taylor, Robles & Whitlock probably can all give you an inning if they have the lead after 6. Better question: who starts for TB?? I think Patino was the plan, but that’s out the window now. They really burned through just about the whole roster today. Will be interesting watching them piece it together tomorrow.
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Post by foreverred9 on Oct 10, 2021 22:11:14 GMT -5
Think of the homer that went off of Canseco's head. If it didn't bounce off him, it wouldn't have been a homer. Same here, except it also hit the ground and wasn't intentionally knocked out of play.
That is exactly the scenario i was thinking of and why i don' think this was an incorrect call. besides if the runner hadn't touched 3rd is it fair to assume he was going to score. i know runners get extra bases when balls go into dugouts and such, but that is on throwing errors. this was just a weird bounce off a player in the field of play. The rule states that if it bounces inadvertently off a player it's two bases from where the player was at the pitch, but if the player controlled the ball and threw it out of bounds it's two bases from where the runners are.
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Post by kevfc89 on Oct 10, 2021 22:24:15 GMT -5
this is amazing
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Post by soxfansince67 on Oct 10, 2021 22:50:07 GMT -5
Red Sox, postseason, facing the exalted NY and Tampa staffs
team batting .325, 51 hits in 4 games, 10 HR, 26 RBI.
Let's keep the offense rolling - they have awoken!
Kiké 9-19 Xander 6-16 Kyle 6-16 Alex V 7-19 Arroyo 5-16 JD 5-11
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 10, 2021 22:57:40 GMT -5
Thanks to a kind friend, I got to watch the game after all. And what a game it was!!
Eovaldi was great although I wouldn't have minded seeing him go longer. The problem is when you go with too many relievers one of them is bound to have a bad day. Perhaps Cora is saving him for a relief appearance in Game 5 and that's why he pulled him early?
I wasn't overly thrilled with Cora, as much as I like him, particularly in the 8th inning. I can't for the life of me figure why he had Robles face Arozarena with 2 outs and the tying run on 3rd when he could have a) gone to Whitlock or b) simply walked him to face Kiermeier. I get that you don't want to put the go ahead run on base and Kiermier is a lefty, but still, you can't let Arozarena beat you. The difference on offense between the two is huge. That was a mistake facing him.
The other issue isn't from this game but rather from pitching Pivetta longer in Game 1 than was necessary. Now after his heroics, Pivetta has over 140 pitches in a 4 day stretch, which is too many. I hope it doesn't wipe him out should they advance. I would think he's not available the rest of the series. I did appreciate Cora not turning to Perez in the 12th inning when I thought he might.
That 13th was crazy. The Red Sox caught a similar break to the break they got in Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS when Tony Clark's ground rule double would have broke a 4-4 tie in the 9th but even though Sierra would have scored, the ball bounced into the stands for a ground rule double. That one was obvious. This one....I had no idea. I mean what would have stopped Renfroe from using his hands as a tennis racket and batting the ball over the wall once it bounced rather than trying to field it? Obviously the ball hitting him on the ricochet off the wall was unintentional but if it didn't hit off him it would have stayed in play and scored the go-ahead run. So it's like he got rewarded for his having the ball accidentally hit him. Strange rule. Kind of the baseball version of the tuck rule?
The Rays got screwed out of a run although the umps got it right based on the rules in the books, so I was really glad that Christian Vazquez hit a 2 run HR. The lasting memory might be that wacky play and I'm sure people will forget, but the Sox would have won the game anyways when Vazquez hit a 2 run shot. I think he would have hit it either way? I mean, the Rays must have been deflated when they didn't score. So maybe that showed up in the bottom half of the inning? We'll never know for sure.
All I do know was that was one helluva huge HR by Vazquez. Something about Sox catchers walking off games in extra innings. (Fisk HR, Salty single, and now Vazquez homer).
I hope the Sox can finish off the Rays tomorrow. I hope E-Rod can bounce back and that the pen isn't too spent. They should be fine there.
But the Rays are probably stuck starting Wacha tomorrow and will probably follow up with McHugh. Hope the Sox smash Wacha like they did in Game 6 of the 2013 World Series.
Great victory. They have the opportunity to close this out tomorrow. They can do it. They just have to make it happen.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 10, 2021 23:11:30 GMT -5
I can't imagine they start Wacha tomorrow. They can't start Patiño but he only threw 15 pitches. I would just go with an opener if I were them and then go back to McLanahan if they win Game Four.
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Post by curtisw on Oct 10, 2021 23:51:15 GMT -5
Kind of love Schwarber hamming it up there. That’s the kind of attitude winning teams have—light, loose, still having fun. Vazquez also noted this in his postgame podium interview. I can’t remember the exact quote but the gist was that this team is able to be successful because they have a lot of fun. Some probably might assume his answer was trite and a typical pro athlete non answer, but I find it to be a pretty honest assessment from an experienced ballplayer as to why the team was able to have success. On talent alone they are not the best baseball team remaining in contention for the World Series. But in baseball the “best” team does not always win, and the ability to relax, have some fun, and play loose has helped a team surmount the odds before. I’m not saying they are going to win the WS, but I think they have a shot because they are playing loose, trusting each other, having fun. In Baltimore when we were dropping the series right before the big sweep in Washington, they pressed, and were not having fun. Then they started clicking a bit, culminating in that joyous comeback in game 162. When they have gone on their best stretches this whole year, this is what they have looked like, and the bad patches in August and September were what that last series in Baltimore looked like. I definitely believe this team can do it, and if not it has been an absolute joy all year to watch them and root for them. A most welcome breath of fresh air after the disappointment of 2019, and pure awfulness of 2020. Let’s hope they can close this series out in Boston tomorrow!
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Post by soxinsf on Oct 11, 2021 1:22:08 GMT -5
If I am the Rays, I give serious consideration to starting McClanahan on three days rest. I give him three to five innings based on pitch count and circumstances if the Sox have not knocked him out on their own. I follow with Patino who only pitched one inning. If the series goes five, I have the game two starter on regular rest. I would rather bet on McClanahan for openers than Wacha.
As a Sox supporter, I am hoping for Wacha.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 11, 2021 2:17:25 GMT -5
Here is a full list of Rays pitchers who were not used in this game:
-McClanahan -Baz -Wacha -McHugh
Wacha and Baz each threw more than 2 innings on Friday. McClanahan threw 5 innings on Thursday.
Cash has a heck of a puzzle to solve...
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 11, 2021 2:35:52 GMT -5
Also, I’d be curious to test this theory, but I think strikeout-heavy, HR-dependent offenses are highly vulnerable against low-walk pitchers when they’re trailing. Basically it’s hard to manufacture rallies without multiple walks and those pitchers can take the risk in giving up a solo HR Sounds very reasonable. Those offenses also tend to feast on bad pitching and fare relatively less well in the post-season. The two things might be related. To be fair to the umpires, they should just eliminate the umpire's discretion part of ground rule doubles that the MLB Network booth kept referring to. Maybe isn't fair in cases like this, but at least there's no controversy around it. I have no idea what they were talking about with umpire's discretion, which is for obstruction / interference only, I think.
Including Chris's tweet, four folks here noted that the 2-run homer rendered the entire "ground rule" double thing moot. But neither announcer did.
I've long felt that the rule should be changed: with two outs (when the runner is always off on contact), a ball that bounces into the stands in fair territory scores the runner. (Yes, "in fair territory" leaves Tony Clark without an RBI! The intent is to not go overboard and give extra credit for a pop fly down the line, which is already a positive break for the batting team, and where the ball bouncing into the stands seems like justice restored.)
For this play, there's a sense that the fielding team should not be rewarded for accidentally knocking the ball out of play, but the 2-out rule change would cover that. Ground rule doubles with 2 outs, where the runner almost always scores, have always been a terrible bad break. The MLB network post-game talked about how the play tonight changed the momentum, but the psychological effect of the regular version of that play would have been identical.
----
Apparently no one heard Cora say that Robles was sick and actually threw up after he left the game. That he actually got two outs was to his credit, and you can't really knock him for giving it a try, even if it proved to be ill-advised.
Loved the bit about Pivetta getting Eovadi's contract ... but he's three seasons from free agency. At this moment he's not looking like a future fourth starter; more like a #3 and maybe a #2. With 3 or 4 more years from Sale, 5 years of control of Whitlock, and six of of Houck, we should be in very good shape for a while. And -- just saying -- so far, Bloom is averaging one potential top-mid rotation starter per year, acquired for almost literally nothing.
Wouldn't it be nice if CV retained his 2019-20 power stroke for the remainder of the post-season? It's basically a homer per 6 games, so that would be one for each of the next two series, if that happens.
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Post by GyIantosca on Oct 11, 2021 4:06:00 GMT -5
Listen for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to complain is a joke, with that crappy stadium they play at. Give me a break.
By the way I love this version of Pivetta. If he can wake up ERod that would be nice.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 11, 2021 4:20:35 GMT -5
If I am the Rays, I give serious consideration to starting McClanahan on three days rest. I give him three to five innings based on pitch count and circumstances if the Sox have not knocked him out on their own. I follow with Patino who only pitched one inning. If the series goes five, I have the game two starter on regular rest. I would rather bet on McClanahan for openers than Wacha. As a Sox supporter, I am hoping for Wacha. You have to win both games, right? And McClanahan, your best pitcher, is available to pitch one, correct? So why would you have him pitch on 3 days rest, something he's never done professionally and probably has never done in his life, rather than on 5 days rest, which he's done often? Baz in game 5 is not obviously better than today's expected bullpen game.
The Rays are in precisely the same situation as the Sox were in 1998, when they needed to win 2 against the Indians, and had a choice between Pete Schourek and Pedro, each on 5 days rest, or Pedro on 3 days rest followed by Schourek on 7 days. Jimy Williams understood that the goal is not to get to game 5, but to get to the ALCS. And did the former. And they would have won game 4 if Williams had kept a dominant Derek Lowe in to pitch the 8th and used Tom Gordon for the 9th, rather than sending Gordan out for a 2-inning save, something he's done just twice all year, with a 4.50 ERA. I'd forgotten about that, and I'm still pissed.
And of course the next year the Indians screwed up royally by not having any kind of long man on their post-season roster. Game 3 starter Dave Burba had to leave after 4 1-hit innings, and Mike Hargrove panicked by bringing in his game 4 starter, Jaret Wight, who promptly caughed up their 1-0 lead. Bartolo Colon, who had put up an 8 5 2 2 3 11 line in his game 1 victory, then had to pitch game 4 on 3 days rest and posted 1 6 7 7 3 1. That was the legendary 23-7 blowout which set up the legendary injured-Pedro 6 no-hit innings.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Oct 11, 2021 4:24:28 GMT -5
I don't know what the discussion is here. McClanahan in G4, Baz in G5. If Pivetta can throw 73 pitches on Thursday and pitch 4 innings YESTERDAY, McClanahan can start tomorrow and provide some innings. If the Rays win G4, the more pitchers they need to do it, the more Baz HAS to start G5. And anyway, if they trusted Baz to start G2, why would a little struggle cause them to go away from him in G5?
This whole manufactured "quandry" for the Rays assumes they don't believe in the approach they are taking to managing pitching. Remember what I said many pages ago about questioning how the Rays' approach to pitching would hold up in the playoffs, and someone, rightfully so, pointed out "well, they won 100 games and were a better team using it? Don't knock it." Now is the time for them to trust the process.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 11, 2021 4:57:11 GMT -5
Here is a full list of Rays pitchers who were not used in this game:
-McClanahan -Baz -Wacha -McHugh
Wacha and Baz each threw more than 2 innings on Friday. McClanahan threw 5 innings on Thursday.
Cash has a heck of a puzzle to solve...
No Problem
McHugh. They'll look to get 2 innings from him.
Kittredge. On no days rest, 1 inning.
Fairbanks. Ditto.
Feyereisen. He's gone 1.2 on 0 days rest, and after more pitches (18) then he threw yesterday (11), but he gave up 2 hits, 2 walks, and 2 runs. So expect an inning.
Super Side
Wacha hasn't pitched on 2 days rest since 8/28/13, and Baz has never done it, but pitching on 2 days rest is like a side session that matters. (Some guys throw on one days rest and some on two; we don't have that info for them.) You could see two innings each; if they can't complete them, then the following guys get in the mix.
Valid for a Limited Time Only?
Chargois threw 20 pitches. The last time he pitched the day after he threw that many or more was 9/23/16, but he threw one pitch and had it hit for a 2B. He did pitch the day after throwing 19 this year with the Mariners, but that was with 2 outs, and he struck out Matt Chapman looking on 8 pitches. OTOH, he has thrown 35 and 36 pitches total on consecutive days with Rays, so there's a (probably small) possibility that they would use him for a full inning rather than just with 2 outs.
Proceed with Caution?
Wisler has a career .956 OPS allowed when pitching two days in a row, versus .778 overall. This year it was 1.337 (29 PA) versus .672. His only good outing was his August 1 save against us, however. He wasn't hit as hard as it seemed yesterday, as Kiké's leadoff liner to 3B was only 87.9. Only Xander smoked him (108.6, .750).
Comes in, Handy
Fleming has never pitched in back-to-back games. But he's the only lefty in the pen, and there's a first time for everything. Likelier to finish an inning than throw a whole one, I think.
Don't Be Cruel?
Patino has never pitched two days in a row, either. They still hope he can be a starter, so there's no need to give him a "get on the horse that threw you" moment. And they've got as many as 9 guys in front of him, so why not give him a day off after losing last night?
Break Glass in Case of Emergency?
McClanahan's being saved for game 5, but you can see a scenario where there's no one left to close out a lead. As I just noted, he's never pitched on 3 days rest in his life, but again, this could be like a side session for him.
No Pitching
Robertson just threw 40 pitches, his most since 6/1/16. In fact, he hasn't thrown 40 pitches total in consecutive days since 8/25/17. In 2016, he got 6 days rest and then faced 5 batters, giving up a homer and three singles. He's not pitching in game 4, and maybe not in any game 5, either.
Rasmussen has pitched on 0 days rest three times as a reliever, but after a max of 21 pitches. He threw 31 yesterday. And as a starter, the Rays gave him extra rest.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 11, 2021 5:12:23 GMT -5
I don't know what the discussion is here. McClanahan in G4, Baz in G5. If Pivetta can throw 73 pitches on Thursday and pitch 4 innings YESTERDAY, McClanahan can start tomorrow and provide some innings. If the Rays win G4, the more pitchers they need to do it, the more Baz HAS to start G5. And anyway, if they trusted Baz to start G2, why would a little struggle cause them to go away from him in G5? This whole manufactured "quandry" for the Rays assumes they don't believe in the approach they are taking to managing pitching. Remember what I said many pages ago about questioning how the Rays' approach to pitching would hold up in the playoffs, and someone, rightfully so, pointed out "well, they won 100 games and were a better team using it? Don't knock it." Now is the time for them to trust the process. When Pivetta saved game 162, it was the equivalent of a side session, on 2 days rest. His long relief in game 1 was the equivalent of a start. He worked last night again on 2 days rest, and of course he went much longer than a side session and is almost certainly feeling it. (His "I'm OK" in his post-game was completely unconvincing, at least to me.) You won't see him again until game 4 -- either of the ALCS or the 2022 season.
You just can't throw guys on 3 days rest, a full start, without a side session, and trust you'll get good results if they've never done it before. It's a complete crap shoot. Check out what happened to Bartolo Colon in the 1999 ALDS (post above).
Cash clearly decided they weren't going to do that, before the series started. As for Baz, he's set up to pull a Pivetta tonight.
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Post by costpet on Oct 11, 2021 6:56:01 GMT -5
I'd take Gedman all day, every day. There were a couple of old time players who belong on the list too. When I was a kid, the other kids were trying to imitate Ted Williams (from the right side). I always tried to imitate Sammy White catching. Yes the same Sammy White as the bowling alley at the rotary in Boston (If it's still there). I'd take White over Gedman and Vazquez. Montgomery was a backup. ADD: For me Pudge Tek White Vazquez Gedman That's about it. The entire plethora of catchers after White were awful. Russ Nixon, Bob Tillman, Hayward Sullivan, et al. That really sucked because those were the Yogi, Howard, Blanchard years for the Yankees. For a couple of years, the Yankees carried 3 catchers that were all better than anything the Sox had. Like everything else Yankees though, that was last millennium.
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Post by greenmonster on Oct 11, 2021 7:10:23 GMT -5
Great exciting game last night. The kind of game you remember for ages and quite possibly the kind of game that captures new fans. Unfortunately for many potential new fans who might be channel surfing this game was not available because MLB chose to show it on MLB Network with limited access. This required a conscious effort to purchase and therefore was limited to existing fans.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Oct 11, 2021 7:11:57 GMT -5
So it seems like ERod is going tonight. I hope he's interested in pitching a possible close out game. How he looked first time around was brutal. Hope for a much better outing. Make the ALCS and then rest.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 11, 2021 7:18:33 GMT -5
I would be upset with the circumstances that occurred during the ground rule double with Hunter if it happened to the Sox, but the rule makes total sense to me. A throwing error in that situation is penal and deserved of extra bases.
I think if rules start to infer additional bases when the occurrence happens in the field of play, it becomes slippery slope. What if I guy pulls up lame or if he slips on the bag while running the bases. When something occurs accidentally like that one did, no team should benefit or be penalized.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Oct 11, 2021 7:58:01 GMT -5
Erod is going to come through tonight....lets have faith.
Something hit me late in the game against the Yankees. I thought we would win, I expected us to win, I didn't have the impending feeling of Doom that was ingrained into me growing up watching the Sox with the stain of the curse thinking that everything will fall apart. That's a good feeling.
Lets also hope the Sox smash tonight and they don't leave it up to the pitching.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 11, 2021 8:17:16 GMT -5
Gotta love this Schwarber guy!! I hope the Sox find a way to keep him, he certainly seems to like it here.
Him making fun of himself was really really great to see, it will be a favorite moment of mine forever and just what this team needs.
Come on Erod!!!
edit. just realized I posted this in the wrong thread, hope a moderator switches it to the game day.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 11, 2021 8:19:21 GMT -5
Hopefully we don’t see Bobby D again in game 4. He’s been terrible the entire post season and isn’t a good fielder either. I’d rather see Shaw in there if they need a defensive replacement for Schwarber.
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Post by trajanacc on Oct 11, 2021 8:19:47 GMT -5
Kind of love Schwarber hamming it up there. That’s the kind of attitude winning teams have—light, loose, still having fun. It’s funny how (some) fans interpret this type of behavior. If we are winning it’s great to see, possibly even a contributor to the team’s success. During our rough stretches in August/September, if guys were caught on camera even smiling during a game we were losing, they were excoriated for not taking the game seriously enough. I’ve always wondered how the 2011 fried chicken and beer stories would have been interpreted by fans and media if the team had won games on the field.
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