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Red Sox vs. Astros 2021 ALCS Gameday Thread
redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 17, 2021 11:14:38 GMT -5
If this is true then are you implying Devers is gone when he reaches FA? Lindor got 10yr/$341m from the Mets. If THAT is what it takes to sign Devers, I wish him well. I don’t want anything to do with a contract that long. I don’t think I would go more than 7 years for ANY player, honestly. If that's the case then you'd never sign a premiere free agent because if Raffy stays healthy and viable defensively at 3b, 10 years 340 million is in the neighborhood of what it would take but given that he's reaching free agency at an earlier age it could take 11 or even 12 years at that annual value to retain him.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 17, 2021 11:16:24 GMT -5
Even though he's close with AC, having dealt with Hurricane Maria together in 2017, Correa will sign with HOU. They have a lot of money coming off the books and already have Bregman and Altuve locked up through 2024, which is a pretty sizeable window, considering they've been in the ALCS five years in a row already and have cheap young studs like Alvarez and Tucker already contributing. No reason to think they won't keep him. There will be a lot of Correa to MFYs talk (they need a SS, so obviously they'll get the biggest name on the market, right?) but they simply can't afford him.
If the Yankees WERE to sign a Correa, I don’t see how they would be able to resign Judge after next season given what they are already paying Cole and Stanton. They definitely could if they decide to go over the luxury tax, but current ownership has not shown a willingness to do so. P.S. I like Seager more than Correa. I was reading, from Joel Sherman perhaps, that Seager is a more likely target for the Yankees than Correa, a LH bat that can shift to 3b when Anthony Volpe is ready to take over SS for them.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Oct 17, 2021 11:26:01 GMT -5
Just watched the replay of Luis Garcia's last pitch several times and there's no way you can convince me it wasn't a phony injury. The report was "right knee discomfort" and he did not in any way favor his right leg or any other part of his body after that pitch. He threw his hands up after the 4-pitch walk as if to say "I got nothing here, I have no idea where it's going."
He did not look to the dugout or indicate that he was injured. He clearly didn't tell anyone in the dugout between the first and second innings that he was hurt because they would've at least started someone warming in the bullpen. The trainer and manager didn't come out until after Garcia was already talking to Maldonado and Correa for almost a minute. Then in the mound conversation he was clearly doing a lot more listening than talking. They didn't even have him try a practice pitch. It was pretty much the opposite of what you often see -- the manager and trainer leaping out of the dugout immediately after a pitch before anyone else in the stadium knows what's going on because they saw something bad in the delivery.
Baker had no one warming up -- which was surprising in itself because Garcia already looked bad in the first inning -- so faking an injury to give someone as much time as they needed was exactly what the doctor ordered. Once that's the play, why not bring in a guy who needs literally 20 minutes to warm up to slow the Sox momentum and also make Eovaldi wait through an artificial rain delay?
Obviously, it didn't stop the Sox from rolling but now the Astros have cover to replace Garcia on the roster if that's what they decide to do -- it's completely up to them, now that the fake injury ploy worked. At the very least, there should be a rule in the playoffs that if a team replaces a guy due to injury, the other team has the option of replacing someone at their discretion. That might curtail some of this chicanery.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Oct 17, 2021 11:28:49 GMT -5
How is offering ERod a year a waste of time? That’s like the first thing that happens in free agency before anyone makes big decisions. This isn’t the NFL where everyone signs the first few days. Oh I don’t mean not make the QO; I think they will definitely do that. But I don’t think he would accept that and I think he will have multi-year offers, probably 4 years. So apart from the QO compensation, I think a one-year offer is a waste of time. Sorry not to be clear.
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Post by vokuhila on Oct 17, 2021 11:34:23 GMT -5
Unless they are predicated on acquiring someone like Matz or Thor, I would QO Erod, as well. With the CBA in limbo, who knows what will happen with Free Agents? And, at least by Fangraphs, ERod was worth $30M in this, one of his worst years. Bloom's all about value and that seems like value if they think his arm is sound. If Fangraphs is saying that Erod, and his 4.74ERA over 157 innings, is worth $30m, perhaps we need to use a new system for evaluating a player’s worth. Jesus, not this discussion again...please stop judging pitchers based on ERA...this isn't the 1950ies. All this was discussed in The Rotation in 2022@mods: maybe it's time for an offseason thread? We are going very off topic here
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Oct 17, 2021 11:35:11 GMT -5
Lindor got 10yr/$341m from the Mets. If THAT is what it takes to sign Devers, I wish him well. I don’t want anything to do with a contract that long. I don’t think I would go more than 7 years for ANY player, honestly. If that's the case then you'd never sign a premiere free agent because if Raffy stays healthy and viable defensively at 3b, 10 years 340 million is in the neighborhood of what it would take but given that he's reaching free agency at an earlier age it could take 11 or even 12 years at that annual value to retain him. I love Raffy as much as anyone but Nolan Arenado got 9/$275m and he's both a great hitter and a defensive star (8 GGs in 9 years). Raffy is a real risk to move to DH and that's not DH money. Raffy has his moments in the field, both good and bad, and so far hasn't been able to show that he's a lock to stay at 3B for the next 10 years. He should still make a lot of money, though. He's only 24 and should be able to hit for at least 10 more years.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Oct 17, 2021 11:36:31 GMT -5
If Fangraphs is saying that Erod, and his 4.74ERA over 157 innings, is worth $30m, perhaps we need to use a new system for evaluating a player’s worth. Jesus, not this discussion again...please stop judging pitchers based on ERA...this isn't the 1950ies. All this was discussed in The Rotation in 2022@mods: maybe it's time for an offseason thread? We are going very off topic hereWell, they don't play again for another 36 hours...
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 17, 2021 11:36:31 GMT -5
How is offering ERod a year a waste of time? That’s like the first thing that happens in free agency before anyone makes big decisions. This isn’t the NFL where everyone signs the first few days. Oh I don’t mean not make the QO; I think they will definitely do that. But I don’t think he would accept that and I think he will have multi-year offers, probably 4 years. So apart from the QO compensation, I think a one-year offer is a waste of time. Sorry not to be clear. Oh yeah I agree with that. No worries.
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Post by jbuttah on Oct 17, 2021 11:38:02 GMT -5
Lindor got 10yr/$341m from the Mets. If THAT is what it takes to sign Devers, I wish him well. I don’t want anything to do with a contract that long. I don’t think I would go more than 7 years for ANY player, honestly. If that's the case then you'd never sign a premiere free agent because if Raffy stays healthy and viable defensively at 3b, 10 years 340 million is in the neighborhood of what it would take but given that he's reaching free agency at an earlier age it could take 11 or even 12 years at that annual value to retain him. IMO, if they sign Devers it'll be as an extension that buys out some of his FA years. I don't believe they'd (Bloom) would sign him to a Lindor like contract when he's a FA.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 17, 2021 11:41:10 GMT -5
Maybe the idea with Correa is they sign him, keep both for a year and let Xander walk. As tough as that would be to see happen given all Xander has done for this franchise it could make baseball sense if Correa projects to stick at short longer. He is also younger.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 17, 2021 11:42:00 GMT -5
Just watched the replay of Luis Garcia's last pitch several times and there's no way you can convince me it wasn't a phony injury. The report was "right knee discomfort" and he did not in any way favor his right leg or any other part of his body after that pitch. He threw his hands up after the 4-pitch walk as if to say "I got nothing here, I have no idea where it's going." He did not look to the dugout or indicate that he was injured. He clearly didn't tell anyone in the dugout between the first and second innings that he was hurt because they would've at least started someone warming in the bullpen. The trainer and manager didn't come out until after Garcia was already talking to Maldonado and Correa for almost a minute. Then in the mound conversation he was clearly doing a lot more listening than talking. They didn't even have him try a practice pitch. It was pretty much the opposite of what you often see -- the manager and trainer leaping out of the dugout immediately after a pitch before anyone else in the stadium knows what's going on because they saw something bad in the delivery. Baker had no one warming up -- which was surprising in itself because Garcia already looked bad in the first inning -- so faking an injury to give someone as much time as they needed was exactly what the doctor ordered. Once that's the play, why not bring in a guy who needs literally 20 minutes to warm up to slow the Sox momentum and also make Eovaldi wait through an artificial rain delay? Obviously, it didn't stop the Sox from rolling but now the Astros have cover to replace Garcia on the roster if that's what they decide to do -- it's completely up to them, now that the fake injury ploy worked. At the very least, there should be a rule in the playoffs that if a team replaces a guy due to injury, the other team has the option of replacing someone at their discretion. That might curtail some of this chicanery. Everything you're describing here is completely consistent with the reporting: Garcia was having an issue he hadn't shared with coaches; it was the catcher who noticed something was off. You don't need a special explanation for why Baker didn't have someone warming up at the start of the second inning. Spending 15 minutes to "slow the Sox' momentum" is just a weird idea; and if the grand payoff of all this was to make Eovaldi rest a bit longer in the dugout, it is an awfully elaborate ruse for a pretty speculative and minimal benefit.
And if that was the ploy, it was incredibly stupid! Odorizzi did not look thrilled about having to come into the game, then he warmed up awkwardly on the field with all eyes on him, then he sucked hard in that inning and gave up a grand slam. You could argue it was the big mistake of the game: why didn't Baker just bring in a regular reliever who could get ready quickly to finish the 2nd, then have Odorizzi to start the third in a more familiar situation?
Meanwhile, as the mlb article I linked to above points out, if the Astros remove Garcia from the roster for the ALCS, he's out for the World Series too. There is absolutely no way in hell that's an outcome they want, as thin as their pitching is, just so they can add Peter Solomon to the roster.
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Post by vokuhila on Oct 17, 2021 11:43:56 GMT -5
Jesus, not this discussion again...please stop judging pitchers based on ERA...this isn't the 1950ies. All this was discussed in The Rotation in 2022@mods: maybe it's time for an offseason thread? We are going very off topic hereWell, they don't play again for another 36 hours... I'm not against discussion the off season, far form it actually. I'm just suggesting to move it to a new thread
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2021 11:47:48 GMT -5
If the Yankees WERE to sign a Correa, I don’t see how they would be able to resign Judge after next season given what they are already paying Cole and Stanton. They definitely could if they decide to go over the luxury tax, but current ownership has not shown a willingness to do so. P.S. I like Seager more than Correa. I was reading, from Joel Sherman perhaps, that Seager is a more likely target for the Yankees than Correa, a LH bat that can shift to 3b when Anthony Volpe is ready to take over SS for them. I read that too not sure it was Joel Sherman but they where talking about is swing is made for Yankee Stadium. He just can't stay healthy.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 17, 2021 11:52:27 GMT -5
Maybe the idea with Correa is they sign him, keep both for a year and let Xander walk. As tough as that would be to see happen given all Xander has done for this franchise it could make baseball sense if Correa projects to stick at short longer. He is also younger. Correa is the better defender and has a great bat but he can't stay on the field. If you are going to break the bank for a player I would put a lot of weight on LT health. None of his injuries really lead me to think they will crop up again but it is a question.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 17, 2021 11:54:48 GMT -5
Well, they don't play again for another 36 hours... I'm not against discussion the off season, far form it actually. I'm just suggesting to move it to a new thread It is a bit funny how people decided to re-start every one of this site's long-running debates in the last page of this thread all of a sudden.
As for game 3... Boy, is the pressure on Urquidy or what? He pretty much has to give them length, I think, regardless of how he pitches. And the pressure is on their offense as well - they might be feeling they have to try to win games 10-8 to have a chance these next few games.
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Post by julyanmorley on Oct 17, 2021 11:57:35 GMT -5
On the hitting side, the Red Sox can reasonably stand pat at any position, and also not struggle to fit in any free agent (3B wouldn't work, but there's no interesting 3B).
Kinda feels pointless to speculate on specific names. Chaim's just gonna sign whoever is underpriced.
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Post by GyIantosca on Oct 17, 2021 11:57:56 GMT -5
Listen the Astros use any advantage they can. Just because the manager is gone doesn’t matter , this goes from the top down.
The pitcher in the 1st game. We saw him earlier in the season he was unhittable. This was before the league woke up about that spider tak. I watched him he would go to his hat on strike 2. That pitch he threw Ted Williams couldn’t hit with the movement on it. That’s why it will feel so good to send these aholes home.
They think there royalty with one title.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 17, 2021 12:04:43 GMT -5
In the moment I was angry about the Garcia/Oddorizi situation and thought the Stros were cheating also. But think about them now without both McCullers and Garcia, they are screwed.
I think the Sox bats are going to continue to rake. Sox are in great position to win and move on.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 17, 2021 12:08:46 GMT -5
... I have a suspicion that Boston will try to sign him to play 2nd. I'm not a fan as with any Astros player you have to wonder how good they really are without cheating in some way. I would hate if Boston let all of their pending FAs go just to sign him. The results with Marwin, Springer and Cole have been mixed at best without some form of cheating assisting them. While Correa had a very similar offensive profile to Bogaerts, his defense was worth almost three wins by BR. Why would he agree to play second? Why would any team want him to when he's so valuable at the most important position? That is how good he is.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Oct 17, 2021 12:12:52 GMT -5
Maybe the idea with Correa is they sign him, keep both for a year and let Xander walk. As tough as that would be to see happen given all Xander has done for this franchise it could make baseball sense if Correa projects to stick at short longer. He is also younger. Correa is the better defender and has a great bat but he can't stay on the field. If you are going to break the bank for a player I would put a lot of weight on LT health. None of his injuries really lead me to think they will crop up again but it is a question. I want nothing to do with Carlos Correa, dude is a prick, he's Manny Machado v2. I like to be able to root for my team's players and if we were to sign Correa I could never root for him, I'd just be hoping everyone in the majors plunked him every at bat until he retired. Let Houston keep him.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 17, 2021 12:18:57 GMT -5
With Gaybar Torres sucking so bad at SS, I don't see how the Yankees don't make a major push for Correa. I can't see them spending the cash for Rizzo.
Always a fun follow when they are in panic mode.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 17, 2021 12:25:21 GMT -5
... I have a suspicion that Boston will try to sign him to play 2nd. I'm not a fan as with any Astros player you have to wonder how good they really are without cheating in some way. I would hate if Boston let all of their pending FAs go just to sign him. The results with Marwin, Springer and Cole have been mixed at best without some form of cheating assisting them. While Correa had a very similar offensive profile to Bogaerts, his defense was worth almost three wins by BR. Why would he agree to play second? Why would any team want him to when he's so valuable at the most important position? That is how good he is. The similarities between Bogaerts and Jeter - and I sort of hate to say this - but the similarities are eerie. They have almost the exact same fWAR through age 28. Also almost exactly the same wRC+. Also similar range-based defensive limitations. And if the Red Sox signed a superior defensive SS who they moved off of position because their franchise SS didn't want to move, well...
(To be clear, Bogaerts is a good and honest man, and Derek Jeter was a narcissistic phony; personal character has nothing to do with this comparison.)
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Oct 17, 2021 12:30:51 GMT -5
With Gaybar Torres sucking so bad at SS, I don't see how the Yankees don't make a major push for Correa. I can't see them spending the cash for Rizzo. Always a fun follow when they are in panic mode. They have 2 really high end SS prospects and I think they’d go after Seager first (and they’d slide him to 3B when Peraza or Volpe are ready)
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Post by vokuhila on Oct 17, 2021 12:50:49 GMT -5
On the hitting side, the Red Sox can reasonably stand pat at any position, and also not struggle to fit in any free agent (3B wouldn't work, but there's no interesting 3B). Kinda feels pointless to speculate on specific names. Chaim's just gonna sign whoever is underpriced. "Standing pat" always makes me nervous. A lot of players had very good years, Kiké for example had a career year. Just banking on them to do it again seems like poor planing. 2B is the obvious choice for an upgrade. Defensively Arroyo is a natural there, but he has been overproducing this year (.332 wOBA vs .298 xwOBA) and there is no reason to think his personal "cloud of doom" will just disappear. Move him to a utility IF role and sign a 2B. Not necessarily a superstar, an "above average" would be enough or maybe another buy low candidate. The "simple" off season plan would be: -mid rotation starter -overhaul bulpen -sort out DH -extend Devers -2B
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Post by benzinger on Oct 17, 2021 12:59:43 GMT -5
Lindor got 10yr/$341m from the Mets. If THAT is what it takes to sign Devers, I wish him well. I don’t want anything to do with a contract that long. I don’t think I would go more than 7 years for ANY player, honestly. If that's the case then you'd never sign a premiere free agent because if Raffy stays healthy and viable defensively at 3b, 10 years 340 million is in the neighborhood of what it would take but given that he's reaching free agency at an earlier age it could take 11 or even 12 years at that annual value to retain him. I’m sure he can/will get that kind of money, but I hope it’s not from the Sox. How many contracts in excess of 7 years ever work out for the signing team? It’s probably not a very long list.
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