sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Dec 2, 2021 0:48:06 GMT -5
So...when do we re-acquire David Price?
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Post by taiwansox on Dec 2, 2021 0:51:11 GMT -5
You're talking worse than dreadful and the Sox only play half their games in Fenway. He really isn’t worse than dreadful out there. He’s below average to bad. Not a butcher. Bat more than makes up for it Yeah it’s not like he’s Hanley out there
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Post by manfred on Dec 2, 2021 0:52:38 GMT -5
Jackie's CBT number is a lot lower than what the Red Sox will actually pay him. Sox are paying an awful lot of money for these two prospects. Henry deserves some credit here from the crew that thinks the Red Sox won't spend money anymore. This feels a little like Hudson Potts and Jeisson Rosario v2. I’m not at all convinced on the value proposition. If we were taking on JBJ’s salary plus the prospects in exchange for cash or a PTBNL (someone mentioned the Ottavino trade), I’d feel better about it. It is weird. I love JBJ but he was possibly the worst player in baseball last year. So this is a huge step down offensively. I can only assume this means at least one more OF move. Still — I agree that this doesn’t look like a huge return. It just seems… unnecessary. And I am pretty tired of moves that weaken the current roster to deepen the system.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Dec 2, 2021 0:56:32 GMT -5
I like this if we sign Suzuki I like it if we sign Schwarber! Bloom sounded sincere in wanting to re-sign Schwarber, because his production (HR, BB, attitude...), the only way was to trade Renfroe. 1) Verdugo to RF 2) Schwarber to LF 3) Hernandez to 2B 4) JBJ to CF This also adds Schwarber and JBJ as LHH to the batting order, and it improves the defense. JBJ will not be in the lineup against left handed pitchers as Hernandez will be in CF against LHPs. This trade makes sense if the next move is re-signing Schwarber. The Red Sox sold high on Renfroe and bought low on JBJ (buying prospects in the process).
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Post by tyler3 on Dec 2, 2021 1:14:55 GMT -5
Kiké was a really really good CF last year. He will be the CF. The Red Sox are temporarily going over the CBT this year so complaining about the money doesnât make sense. It comes down to this, would you rather have Verdugo, Kiké, Renfroe, and mystery 4th outfielderâ¦. Or Verdugo, Kiké, mystery Outfielder, JBJ as 4th outfielder, and 2 good prospects? We are going to have to wait and see to really have it out but Iâm already leaning towards the latter.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Dec 2, 2021 1:17:15 GMT -5
I love all this. We all missed the boat on what moves were going to be made except for Rich Hill and Hunter Renfroe being traded. Nobody saw Wacha being signed or Paxton being signed and a trade for JBJ and 2 prospects. We did a great job of speculation and come up with all these possiblilities to of where everyone is going to be positioned. This is going to be an interesting puzzle for us all to figure out. I have no clue on where they are going with this and am anxious to hear what Bloom has to say about these moves. My personal feeling is that Arroyo was a very good 2nd baseman if he wasn't injured so much. He had some very important hits in critical times. Maybe they feel the same way. I can't see giving Semien a 7 year deal or Seager a 10 year deal for this team when they have prospects coming up to look at.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 2, 2021 1:34:24 GMT -5
I know Schwarber is defensively challenged, to put it kindly, but consider...this is the lineup if the season started tomorrow:
RF Hernandez 3B Devers SS Bogaerts DH Martinez LF Verdugo 1B Dalbec C Vazquez CF Bradley 2B Arroyo
This is one very flimsly lineup. I'm sorry. It just is.
Now try it with Schwarber:
2B Hernandez (CF against lefties) LF Schwarber SS Bogaerts 3B Devers DH Martinez RF Verdugo 1B Dalbec C Vazquez CF Bradley (Arroyo plays 2b against lefties)
The Sox really need Schwarber's LH power bat in the lineup. They can always defense for him late in games employing both JBJ and Hernandez in the OF and Arroyo (or even Iglesias if they bring him back) at 2b.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 2, 2021 1:40:31 GMT -5
I do hope the Sox find a way to make JBJ just a defensive replacement. His BA has been declining since 2016. In 2020 he batted .283 in the short sample size season but if you add in his putrid 2021 season and combine it with 2020, you get an average just above .200, which is a drop from his .225 season from 2019 but more in line with his gradual drops each season.
The prospects the Sox got are nice prospects but I don't know that they're worth adding all that payroll on in JBJ and downgrading the lineup drastically from Renfroe to JBJ.
I mean Binelas has a nice power bat but his hit tool is kind of a question as is his defensive position. It's not like he's going to knock Casas off of 1b and I don't know that he can handle 3b - I'd rather see X or Devers extended.
Hamilton looks more like a utility player in the majors, one with great speed who takes his walks, but doesn't have a particularly good hit tool, so I can see that role for him.
It just seems like a lot of trouble to go through to get a future utility man and a prospect with power and not a lot else.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 2, 2021 1:48:16 GMT -5
I don’t imagine Hamilton is ready! He’s played 33 games at AA, and his numbers were fair there. That would be a massive jump. He wouldn't be the first to jump from AA to the majors. I don't imagine it will be until at least the midway point of the season, but it could happen, especially if we're desperate enough for help there. Honestly could see him getting promoted over Jeter Downs at this point lmao. If his glove and speed are as advertised, I could see a player with those tools as a stopgap in 2022 for when Arroyo gets hurt, probably moreso than Downs.
Hamilton's ceiling is probably limited to UT or maybe 2nd division regular 2B down the road but with speed and defense, you can sit on a big league bench.
EDIT: Didn't realize Hamilton is a LHH. Decent splits vs. RHP in his first year of pro ball (although SSS). Could be worse. Had a big AFL.
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Post by jimmydugan on Dec 2, 2021 2:04:45 GMT -5
I like it if we sign Schwarber! Bloom sounded sincere in wanting to re-sign Schwarber, because his production (HR, BB, attitude...), the only way was to trade Renfroe. 1) Verdugo to RF 2) Schwarber to LF 3) Hernandez to 2B 4) JBJ to CF This also adds Schwarber and JBJ as LHH to the batting order, and it improves the defense. JBJ will not be in the lineup against left handed pitchers as Hernandez will be in CF against LHPs. This trade makes sense if the next move is re-signing Schwarber. The Red Sox sold high on Renfroe and bought low on JBJ (buying prospects in the process). - Agreed with all of this except Hernandez to CF.
- JBJ as a 4OF means that they can add a big bat almost anywhere in the OF/right side of IF.
I'd like to see Iggy sign for a cheap 1+ club option to help man 2B/SS, serve as a defensive replacement/ pinch runner/ rare PH appearance if a contact oriented RHB makes sense and they don't want to burn the backup C.
- I'm also in on Schwarber. But I've got a feeling that he signs for more guaranteed $ than the Sox are comfortable with and sign a Brad Miller type guy (xwOBA over last 3 years of .377 puts him in top 100 over that span). Suzuki is a good fit too. I bet FSG would like to promote him.
- Then scour for bullpen arms. Assemble a solid pen for the next few years.
- My money is on the Sox winning 85-90 games but not getting too far next year due to the strength of the division.
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Post by kman22 on Dec 2, 2021 2:30:23 GMT -5
Feels like this clears a path to potentially sign Suzuki to play RF and Schwarber to play 1B (full spring training to get up to speed there). Leaves you with bench of Plawecki, Dalbec, JBJ, and someone to fill the middle IF bench role (Iglesias?).
Feels like a little bit more defensive flexibility
Kiké Schwarber Bogaerts Devers JDM Suzuki Verdugo Vazquez Arroyo
Probably an endless number of other scenarios, but lineup wise, I think this would be my realistic(?) preference.
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Post by bosoxnation on Dec 2, 2021 2:36:40 GMT -5
This makes a ton of sense, if we sign Schwarber. That moves Kiké to 2nd and makes our defense way better. E-Rod news came out saying he wanted a good defense yesterday and Bloom took that to heart. lol
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Dec 2, 2021 2:57:01 GMT -5
Jackie's CBT number is a lot lower than what the Red Sox will actually pay him. Sox are paying an awful lot of money for these two prospects. Henry deserves some credit here from the crew that thinks the Red Sox won't spend money anymore. The question isn't whether Henry will spend money. The question was and has always been if Henry is willing to pay for a top 10 player in the league. Still, this trade is all about Chaim. He better be right about these prospects. He just got himself into a messy contract when he didn't need to. This makes 0 sense. Financially, if you're committing X amount of money to the team, it doesn't matter whether or not you allocate it across multiple contracts or on one superstar. So if the Sox aren't buying these superstars maybe you need to reevaluate your own expectations and come to the realization that it could be a strategy thing instead of just assuming there are particular contracts that ownership has reservations about giving out. They're not infallible by any means but they do know what they're doing more often than not.
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Post by baseball3 on Dec 2, 2021 3:25:19 GMT -5
The question isn't whether Henry will spend money. The question was and has always been if Henry is willing to pay for a top 10 player in the league. Still, this trade is all about Chaim. He better be right about these prospects. He just got himself into a messy contract when he didn't need to. This makes 0 sense. Financially, if you're committing X amount of money to the team, it doesn't matter whether or not you allocate it across multiple contracts or on one superstar. So if the Sox aren't buying these superstars maybe you need to reevaluate your own expectations and come to the realization that it could be a strategy thing instead of just assuming there are particular contracts that ownership has reservations about giving out. They're not infallible by any means but they do know what they're doing more often than not. I mean, they stick to their own strategy for sure. I don't need to reevaluate anything. The Boston Red Sox are a franchise that should buy at least one top 10-15 player in the league. That's really not that high of a expectation. I still hope for them to sign Correa, even if it means a full-time RF JBJ.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 2, 2021 3:33:36 GMT -5
This makes a ton of sense, if we sign Schwarber. That moves Kiké to 2nd and makes our defense way better. E-Rod news came out saying he wanted a good defense yesterday and Bloom took that to heart. lol Agree the defensive upgrade in OF and IF. Shame on ERod pointing fingers at two of supposed best pals in Bogaerts & Devers, plus Arroyo. Not much wrong with an OF of Verdugo, Kiké, Renfroe, though I suspect it will be even better going forward. Pulling for Schwarber AND Suzuki. In for a penny erc. Also, surprisingly good prospect haul with JBJ. As someone said earlier, I like the direction where this ship is heading. Complaints are futile. We actually are having our breaths taken away this season. And Chaim is not done yet. Feels refreshing.
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Post by bosoxnation on Dec 2, 2021 3:38:44 GMT -5
The question isn't whether Henry will spend money. The question was and has always been if Henry is willing to pay for a top 10 player in the league. Still, this trade is all about Chaim. He better be right about these prospects. He just got himself into a messy contract when he didn't need to. This makes 0 sense. Financially, if you're committing X amount of money to the team, it doesn't matter whether or not you allocate it across multiple contracts or on one superstar. So if the Sox aren't buying these superstars maybe you need to reevaluate your own expectations and come to the realization that it could be a strategy thing instead of just assuming there are particular contracts that ownership has reservations about giving out. They're not infallible by any means but they do know what they're doing more often than not. Bloom just traded a 1 year deal for a 1 year deal and got 2 prospects along the way while making our defense better. If you’re not a JBJ fan then please get off the site 😂. Just kidding but I like the move. Build the farm baby!
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 2, 2021 4:12:25 GMT -5
12 million AAV for a possible platoon player. 10 million AAV for a guy who might pitch 60 innings. 7 million for a guy who has figured out the magic potion to turn his career around. That is 15% of your payroll and 3 spots on the (likely ??) 26 man roster.
And nobody looks at these moves with any trepidation ? Don't people remember how awful it was watching JBJ swing at pitches ?
Well....Bloom definitely appears to play 3D chess. Gameday thread could be more volatile that it already is when the inevitable underperformance occurs. LOL.
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Post by bosoxnation on Dec 2, 2021 4:24:02 GMT -5
12 million AAV for a possible platoon player. 10 million AAV for a guy who might pitch 60 innings. 7 million for a guy who has figured out the magic potion to turn his career around. That is 15% of your payroll and 3 spots on the (likely ??) 26 man roster. And nobody looks at these moves with any trepidation ? Don't people remember how awful it was watching JBJ swing at pitches ? Well....Bloom definitely appears to play 3D chess. Gameday thread could be more volatile that it already is when the inevitable underperformance occurs. LOL. 1 year prove it deals aren’t scary. 10 years 30 million per is scary to me.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 2, 2021 5:08:58 GMT -5
12 million AAV for a possible platoon player. 10 million AAV for a guy who might pitch 60 innings. 7 million for a guy who has figured out the magic potion to turn his career around. That is 15% of your payroll and 3 spots on the (likely ??) 26 man roster. And nobody looks at these moves with any trepidation ? Don't people remember how awful it was watching JBJ swing at pitches ? Well....Bloom definitely appears to play 3D chess. Gameday thread could be more volatile that it already is when the inevitable underperformance occurs. LOL. 1 year prove it deals aren’t scary. 10 years 30 million per is scary to me. This is kind of non-responsive. Those are the numbers. Not making them up. It is a lot of money for guys who are not considered peak performers / performance risks at this point. ERod and Hunter would cost around 22 milion this year (14 + 8 projected for Hunter), thereby freeing up 8 million for Schwarber or whomever the extra roster spot can afford and a better assurance of productivity. Tangentially and apologies if this comes off as snarky. that is because you have bought into the owner driven, GM economics major figurin', player salary suppression notion that teams cant afford those contracts. That may be true for some teams, but if I had access to the Sox books, I would almost guarantee that they would turn a profit on a 250 million dollar payroll, maybe even more. The problem is the owners have put in a system that penalizes such activity, basically because they can't get along amongst themselves.
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Post by baseball3 on Dec 2, 2021 5:29:10 GMT -5
Last thought and don't mean to start things. This trade is just confusing.
You got the worst player in the league offensively (last season and he's another year older in his 30's) for a productive good RF short term. That makes you worse (you just made the ALCS).
The trade is about the prospects. Let's focus on that. Alex Binelas is the one Bloom (probably) wanted the most. His bat looks like it could be as impactful as any bat in the minor leagues soon. He doesn't have a position. Highly risky if he can't find a position. His value will always be tied to his bat.
The Sox spent around 10 million dollars and didn't even get a top 10 prospect or a 50 FV prospect. Just bonkers. The Sox evaluation should get the benefit of the doubt, but yikes.
I have loved Bloom's work so far, too. The Paxton, Hill, Wacha signings were reasonable. His 2020 rebuilding year was perfect. Last year he was great retooling while competing.
This is the first move he's legitimately had me scratching my head a bit here.
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Post by alan on Dec 2, 2021 6:01:22 GMT -5
Last thought and don't mean to start things. This trade is just confusing. You got the worst player in the league offensively (last season and he's another year older in his 30's) for a productive good RF short term. That makes you worse (you just made the ALCS). The trade is about the prospects. Let's focus on that. Alex Binelas is the one Bloom (probably) wanted the most. His bat looks like it could be as impactful as any bat in the minor leagues soon. He doesn't have a position. Highly risky if he can't find a position. His value will always be tied to his bat. The Sox spent around 10 million dollars and didn't even get a top 10 prospect or a 50 FV prospect. Just bonkers. The Sox evaluation should get the benefit of the doubt, but yikes. I have loved Bloom's work so far, too. The Paxton, Hill, Wacha signings were reasonable. His 2020 rebuilding year was perfect. Last year he was great retooling while competing. This is the first move he's legitimately had me scratching my head a bit here. I'm willing to bet my money that Bloom is going to sign another outfielder along side Schwarber, gotta wait after the lockout for that to happen tho. Seiya Suzuki would be the dream
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 2, 2021 6:04:41 GMT -5
Guys, JBJ did not just displace Kiké as the team's starting CFer. This is this year's Ottavino - an overpriced contract Bloom takes on to buy prospects. JBJ is the 4th outfielder. I think it means they're probably adding Schwarber to replace Renfroe (with Verdugo to RF), but it could be someone else. This move makes zero sense for a contender. The Sox making this move as a last place team I totally get. But you just traded one your best hitters and elite outfielder for someone who plays elite defense and hit .163 last year. Unless they're trying to stack Boras clients to make Xander feel good this is a mistake for 2022.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Dec 2, 2021 6:05:50 GMT -5
This trade doesn't make any sense from either a talent level or a financial perspective. Giving up Renfroe for a 4th OF and two middling prospects makes the team weaker. The financial impact is even worse with JBJ due $24 million over the next 2 years. WTF.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Dec 2, 2021 6:08:36 GMT -5
To me this trade, along with recent spending on rotation depth, means we are going to blow past whatever CBT figure there is in the new deal. In the expired system, we would blow past the first but not the second limit.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Dec 2, 2021 6:09:38 GMT -5
Team isn't going quietly into the night I guess. What a strange lockout deadline trade. Grade: incomplete.
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