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5/6-5/8 Red Sox vs. White Sox Series Thread
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Post by greenmonster on May 8, 2022 15:36:46 GMT -5
Now watch us roll to a WS title! I know Cora was trying to lighten the mood, but I would bet something relatively significant is going to happen soon. Most likely scenario would be Dalbec getting sent down as I don't think other teams are ready to start buying just yet. Not sure if that is really that significant unless perhaps Casas is on the way up.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 8, 2022 15:42:02 GMT -5
No, it's the 2021 PS run that doesn't count. They finished second in the division. If 2020 had gone the other way, you can bet he'd be saying that that season doesn't count. Why? Maybe they’d win a title if, well, they hadn’t sucked? It is hardly reasonable to say “he hates sucking and complains about sucking but would complain if they were good” — given that my complaint is they are *not* good. Last year was *fine* — but if your idea of success is book-ending a wild card between brutal seasons, you could aim higher. You can say I dismiss the season, but you seem to hold it out as a reason the other two years aren’t so bad. Last year was better than fine. I was proud of them. They eliminated the freaking Yankees. That alone made it successful. Beating annoying TB was the icing on the cake. Out of four 90 plus win teams in a tough AL East, the Red Sox were the last team left standing. That is something...and we knew they were doing some serious overachieving and at one point it actually looked like things were lining up for a surprise championship. They knocked out Greinke and were on a hitting spree, poised to go up 3-1 in games. They haven't hit since of course. Eventually Altuve ambushed Whitlock in the 8th and Eovaldi got touched up thanks to frightful umpiring by Laz Diaz, and then the bullpen came in and killed them. Note the theme. Flagging offense and a flammable bullpen that can't hold a lead, issues that obviously needing fixing, that Bloom neglected. But the point is that last year was successful, not the ultimate success of course. It won't be up there with 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 of course, but it revived the fanbase for one fun season..it was electic at Fenway last October. I get your point. Growing up last century, the hero talk was 1967 and Pudge's Game 6 HR off the foul pole...but no championships. This century we're spoiled. 2007 almost gets forgotten because they've won so often so yeah it raises the bar we're a nice season isn't as rewarding as a championship season....and it feels strange to regard 1967 as a success, although without it, the Red Sox might have vacated Fenway and moved out of Boston. For me, 2021 is a nice season, the way I remember 1988, 1990, 1995, 1999, or 2008.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 8, 2022 15:43:54 GMT -5
That's Dalbecian. Honestly, I think Bobby needs a trip back down to AAA. I still want to give the power a chance to happen. Story deserves and will get a longer runway than Bobby. Maybe Arroyo is the new RH first baseman. Bobby goes down. Sox find an adequate RH OF somewhere, maybe Davis in the short run. Whenever Casas is ready, other adjustments can be made. At this point, Arroyo is the best hitter among the current possibilities and his defense is likely as as good as or better than Bobby and Franchy. Maybe you recall that Arroyo got injured after playing just 1 game at 1b? Hate to say it, but he's probably their best 2b at the moment.
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Post by jimed14 on May 8, 2022 15:52:32 GMT -5
This part of the game was especially exciting.
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Post by notstarboard on May 8, 2022 16:01:12 GMT -5
This part of the game was especially exciting. Harrison almost hit the ball in fair territory too. I was on the edge of my seat.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 8, 2022 16:16:25 GMT -5
Built on top of the trash dombrowski left him to clean up, Covid, and a lockout years. Make no mistake.â- part of that record is cleaning up after the last gms trash he left behind. BUT. Yes itâs looking sad right now for sure. And this off season hasnât helped. Defending bloom lol Guy traded away 2 of our young stars and a future hall of Famer for a bag of marbles Traded Mookie Betts away with 80 games left in his contract. How has Mookie Betts been with his monster contract? Over-paid. Benintendi was not a star when he was traded away. He's having a very lucky season, but good for him. Renfroe and Schwarber haven't been very good this year. Not sure who else you could mean. The offense isn't entirely Bloom's fault. Everyone other than Xander and JD are performing under their career numbers, some of which are historically bad. Did anyone think Verdugo, Story, and Kiké would be THIS bad? Devers is hitting, but he's not crushing it. Dalbec was a gamble, but I don't think anyone expects an OPS of .451 by May 8th. I'm willing to bet you roll out the same lineup next year and they're going to be highly competitive unless everyone on this team is just cooked simultaneously. I don't know who you can blame for this disaster. Bloom is an easy target, but I don't think he's primary to blame (though the Barnes contract is his fault. Even if you want to blame for Story no one ever expected this). The first place I start is with the hitting coach if I had to start somewhere. If the team was hitting to their career numbers and they were losing, then you blame Bloom I think.
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Post by dirtdog on May 8, 2022 16:18:43 GMT -5
You know I distinctly remember some of you (take a bow if it was you) posting on this very board back during the 2018 dream season that "man oh man we are going to pay for the excesses of the Dombrowski era in three or four years down the road". You could not have been more right. This feels like February and March after you put Christmas on a high interest credit card.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on May 8, 2022 16:27:57 GMT -5
I'm glad Alex is shaving the beard. It's time. Can't keep that stuff during a losing streak. Not kidding. It's not going to fix things but just a sign of pride and desperation.
Story, I'm still willing to give some benefit of the doubt given short spring, baby, new city, new position. Also I have to since we have 5.8 more seasons...
Bring up Duran and Casas and shake up the bullpen. Depth be damned, depth hasn't gotten us $#%& this year. Act desperate because it's getting late early this year. Hitting coach shakeup shouldn't be far behind.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on May 8, 2022 16:34:15 GMT -5
Meanwhile, it may not matter because the Yankees nay never lose again. Ugh.
I want to amend my “successes”: WS or *at least* the Yankees blow.
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Post by incandenza on May 8, 2022 16:38:12 GMT -5
Meanwhile, it may not matter because the Yankees nay never lose again. Ugh. I want to amend my “successes”: WS or *at least* the Yankees blow. Or the Red Sox eliminate them from the playoffs! That can never be less than a great season.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on May 8, 2022 16:42:55 GMT -5
Why? Maybe they’d win a title if, well, they hadn’t sucked? It is hardly reasonable to say “he hates sucking and complains about sucking but would complain if they were good” — given that my complaint is they are *not* good. Last year was *fine* — but if your idea of success is book-ending a wild card between brutal seasons, you could aim higher. You can say I dismiss the season, but you seem to hold it out as a reason the other two years aren’t so bad. Last year was better than fine. I was proud of them. They eliminated the freaking Yankees. That alone made it successful.
Beating annoying TB was the icing on the cake. Out of four 90 plus win teams in a tough AL East, the Red Sox were the last team left standing. That is something...and we knew they were doing some serious overachieving and at one point it actually looked like things were lining up for a surprise championship. They knocked out Greinke and were on a hitting spree, poised to go up 3-1 in games. They haven't hit since of course. Eventually Altuve ambushed Whitlock in the 8th and Eovaldi got touched up thanks to frightful umpiring by Laz Diaz, and then the bullpen came in and killed them. Note the theme. Flagging offense and a flammable bullpen that can't hold a lead, issues that obviously needing fixing, that Bloom neglected. But the point is that last year was successful, not the ultimate success of course. It won't be up there with 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 of course, but it revived the fanbase for one fun season..it was electic at Fenway last October. I get your point. Growing up last century, the hero talk was 1967 and Pudge's Game 6 HR off the foul pole...but no championships. This century we're spoiled. 2007 almost gets forgotten because they've won so often so yeah it raises the bar we're a nice season isn't as rewarding as a championship season....and it feels strange to regard 1967 as a success, although without it, the Red Sox might have vacated Fenway and moved out of Boston. For me, 2021 is a nice season, the way I remember 1988, 1990, 1995, 1999, or 2008.^This!
2021 was a great non-WS season -- maybe the best. The fact that it came out of nowhere and that the team was so clutch so often was great but eliminating both the MFYs and Rays in the same year was special. This year goes to show that almost the same cast of characters can produce very different results depending how clutch or unclutch the team is (something we saw in 2019, as well). 2008 was tough at the end, losing to Tampa and the same for 1999, although Pedro's season that year probably makes it second place for me. I'll never forget putting his 17-K game on the radio at a friend's garden party, sort of hovering close enough to the radio the whole time to be able to follow it, and alerting my buddies when he was up to about 11 Ks in the 7th. Mo's MVP year in 1995 and Wake coming out of nowhere was amazing. Riding Morgan Magic to the division title in 1988 was pretty kool but the A's were a juggernaut that year and we never had a chance. 1990 only sticks out to me because of Clemens's roid rage exit at the end. What a dope. Obviously 1978 was a killer but I did enjoy Boomer and the Crunch Bunch quite a bit in 1977, even if they didn't make the playoffs. More recently, the later Farrell years were less joyous than they should've been, even if they won the division in 2016 and 2017.
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Post by reasonabledoubt on May 8, 2022 16:47:25 GMT -5
Story deserves and will get a longer runway than Bobby. Maybe Arroyo is the new RH first baseman. Bobby goes down. Sox find an adequate RH OF somewhere, maybe Davis in the short run. Whenever Casas is ready, other adjustments can be made. At this point, Arroyo is the best hitter among the current possibilities and his defense is likely as as good as or better than Bobby and Franchy. Maybe you recall that Arroyo got injured after playing just 1 game at 1b? Hate to say it, but he's probably their best 2b at the moment. But then Cora will have no other option to play SS when Xander gets the day off...right? Weird how Marcus Semien was allowed to start 14 games at SS for Toronto last season.
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Guidas
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Post by Guidas on May 8, 2022 16:50:21 GMT -5
Ok, if the farm is rebuilt can the Sox rehire Theo or overpay Friedman and get back to playing baseball?
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Post by Underwater Johnson on May 8, 2022 16:55:43 GMT -5
I'm glad Alex is shaving the beard. It's time. Can't keep that stuff during a losing streak. Not kidding. It's not going to fix things but just a sign of pride and desperation. Story, I'm still willing to give some benefit of the doubt given short spring, baby, new city, new position. Also I have to since we have 5.8 more seasons... Bring up Duran and Casas and shake up the bullpen. Depth be damned, depth hasn't gotten us $#%& this year. Act desperate because it's getting late early this year. Hitting coach shakeup shouldn't be far behind. Duran, yes, but Casas just isn't ready yet. He's got a lot of maturity for his age but just not enough seasoning.
Wouldn't mind seeing what Fitzy can do with some big league ABs although both he and Casas need to figure out how to hit AAA LHP.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 8, 2022 17:03:57 GMT -5
Confessions of a Bloom Supporter
I like Bloom. Just philosophically, I like his approach to building the team. And I think most of his moves have been pretty smart, and often creative. But the conversation about Bloom is polarizing, with some people sort of suggesting he's not to blame at all for the team's performance, and I don't think that's quite right. To wit:
- He made the one sort of move I really loathe: he handed out a big contract to a "Proven Closer." That is almost always a bad wager; relievers are just too unpredictable. And so it has gone with Barnes. Much better, in my opinion, would have been to add two or three additional Diekman/Strahm-tier relievers rather than putting all those eggs in Barnes' basket (which he did, in retrospect, at the absolute and anomalous peak of Barnes' value).
- I, personally, went into this season feeling okay about rolling with Dalbec until Casas was ready, so it's not like I was smarter than Bloom on this one. But of course, it's his job to be smarter than me, and they needed a better backup plan than Shaw, who has been terrible for a while and cost them an incredible half a win in just 20 PAs or something. A professional baseball knower should have been able to see that Shaw was cooked.
- Why not just sign Pham or the equivalent? I'll never get that. My feeling on the Renfroe-for-JBJ trade is like a lot of people's: I liked it in isolation, but it left a gap in the team's offensive profile that he failed to fill. In particular, adding a 1B/OF type to cover at least one of Dalbec and JBJ in the event of hitting futility would have been wise.
- In general, the team has wildly underperformed any reasonable projections for offensive production, and most of that can't be laid at Bloom's feet. But there was a fair amount of downside risk with this lineup going into the season: regression to the mean for Kiké; Vazquez and JDM on the downslope of their aging curves; the aforementioned Dalbec and JBJ... And this on a team that was good-not-great in 2021 (107 wRC+) and let Schwarber and Renfroe go. Story and JBJ are great on defense, which seemed to be Bloom's priority, but boy, it sure would be nice to still have Schwarber around...
This is the kind of reasoned post that makes this site worth following. I suggest that we could use a thread just to discuss Bloom. That would take some of the discussion out of the game threads, which (understandably when the team is this lousy) contain too much frustration and repetition. I don't know that I am a supporter of Bloom as much as I am a supporter of the Bloom approach. I think his philosophy is to make player development the MLB team's primary source of talent. I hope he gets the farm system rolling and we see a lot of what Tampa did with Wander Franco. I'd love to see 2023 AL ROY Tristan Casas sign a long-term contract that makes him filthy rich, buys out some of his cost-controlled years and gives the RS a reasonably priced star through the player's prime years. I agree with some of the points you make in your post and disagree with some of the others. But more importantly, it's honest and presented in a way that inspires thought. The never-ending whine of "Bloom sucks because he traded my favorite player more than two years ago instead of paying him $35M a year and I can't get over it" is childish and annoying and does nothing to elevate the level of discussion, in my opinion. Whether I end up as a Bloom supporter, as well as a supporter of his approach, will depend on his evaluation skills and decision making. So far, I like some of what I see and question other moves. But I honestly feel the true test will come when he has some year-to-year financial flexibility. If he can create financial flexibility and a player development machine, he should have a combination that will lead to sustained success.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 8, 2022 17:16:44 GMT -5
I'm glad Alex is shaving the beard. It's time. Can't keep that stuff during a losing streak. Not kidding. It's not going to fix things but just a sign of pride and desperation. Story, I'm still willing to give some benefit of the doubt given short spring, baby, new city, new position. Also I have to since we have 5.8 more seasons... Bring up Duran and Casas and shake up the bullpen. Depth be damned, depth hasn't gotten us $#%& this year. Act desperate because it's getting late early this year. Hitting coach shakeup shouldn't be far behind. Duran, yes, but Casas just isn't ready yet. He's got a lot of maturity for his age but just not enough seasoning.
Wouldn't mind seeing what Fitzy can do with some big league ABs although both he and Casas need to figure out how to hit AAA LHP.
No on Casas. If he starts 2023 in the The Show and finishes in the top three in ROY voting, the RS would get an extra pick in the 2024 draft. It's the kind of move a team with a long-term approach should make.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 8, 2022 17:18:26 GMT -5
Last year was better than fine. I was proud of them. They eliminated the freaking Yankees. That alone made it successful.
Beating annoying TB was the icing on the cake. Out of four 90 plus win teams in a tough AL East, the Red Sox were the last team left standing. That is something...and we knew they were doing some serious overachieving and at one point it actually looked like things were lining up for a surprise championship. They knocked out Greinke and were on a hitting spree, poised to go up 3-1 in games. They haven't hit since of course. Eventually Altuve ambushed Whitlock in the 8th and Eovaldi got touched up thanks to frightful umpiring by Laz Diaz, and then the bullpen came in and killed them. Note the theme. Flagging offense and a flammable bullpen that can't hold a lead, issues that obviously needing fixing, that Bloom neglected. But the point is that last year was successful, not the ultimate success of course. It won't be up there with 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 of course, but it revived the fanbase for one fun season..it was electic at Fenway last October. I get your point. Growing up last century, the hero talk was 1967 and Pudge's Game 6 HR off the foul pole...but no championships. This century we're spoiled. 2007 almost gets forgotten because they've won so often so yeah it raises the bar we're a nice season isn't as rewarding as a championship season....and it feels strange to regard 1967 as a success, although without it, the Red Sox might have vacated Fenway and moved out of Boston. For me, 2021 is a nice season, the way I remember 1988, 1990, 1995, 1999, or 2008.^This! 2021 was a great non-WS season -- maybe the best. The fact that it came out of nowhere and that the team was so clutch so often was great but eliminating both the MFYs and Rays in the same year was special. This year goes to show that almost the same cast of characters can produce very different results depending how clutch or unclutch the team is (something we saw in 2019, as well). 2008 was tough at the end, losing to Tampa and the same for 1999, although Pedro's season that year probably makes it second place for me. I'll never forget putting his 17-K game on the radio at a friend's garden party, sort of hovering close enough to the radio the whole time to be able to follow it, and alerting my buddies when he was up to about 11 Ks in the 7th. Mo's MVP year in 1995 and Wake coming out of nowhere was amazing. Riding Morgan Magic to the division title in 1988 was pretty kool but the A's were a juggernaut that year and we never had a chance. 1990 only sticks out to me because of Clemens's roid rage exit at the end. What a dope. Obviously 1978 was a killer but I did enjoy Boomer and the Crunch Bunch quite a bit in 1977, even if they didn't make the playoffs. More recently, the later Farrell years were less joyous than they should've been, even if they won the division in 2016 and 2017.
Those seasons mentioned retained nice memories for me. I didn't mention 1986 because of the sting it still contains, but the sting is lesser these days and I can remember the crazy wins from that season, Roger's 1st 20K game, the division clincher with Boyd on the mound and the miracle comeback against the Angels and Hurst's post season greatness and how awesome Boggs and Clemens were. In 1988 I remember the Sox being 10 games behind NY, Morgan magic, winning 19 of 20, beating NYY 10-9 in a key game, watching the Sox beat NY behind Hurst with my grandfather the day before he passed away. In 1990 I remember the final 2 series highlighted by Jeff Stone's PH single off Henke in the 9th to win a game that was a microcosm of the season and Brunansky's great catch off Ozzie Guillen in the corner to save the season after Reardon almost let it slip away 1 strike from victory (sound familiar?) In 1995 I remember the Sox being shockingly great and every move Dan Duquette being a masterstroke and a fun clincher with Mo Vaughn and Clemens riding a horse. I think Pesky did as well. I also remember Wakefield's dominant start, Erik Hanson being solid, and Mo Vaughn and Jose Canseco being a strong 1-2 punch. In 1999, I remember the Sox overachieving, Nomar and Pedro's dominance and that great comeback against Cleveland, the 23 run game, and Pedro's 6 innings of no hit relief against 1000 run Cleveland offense and then him shutting down NY against Clemens in their only win against NY. The ending sucked though. 2003 was an exciting roller coaster season with the best lineup 1-9 I've ever seen the Sox put together. The ALDS is largely forgotten but what a great comeback they had against Oakland including Ortiz's clutch double against Keith Foulke and Derek Lowe's Houdini act against Oakland in the 9th inning of decisive Game 5. If only they had a manager with a brain. 2008 was frustrating because the Sox could never shake off upstart TB, but I will say that it's almost forgotten that the Sox almost pulled off one helluva comeback against TB. 7 outs away from being eliminated and down 7 runs, the Sox staged a miracle comeback and won 8-7 and even won Game 6 behind an injured Beckett. Matt Garza had the game of his life in Game 7 and outdueled Jon Lester and a rookie named David Price had his one shining post season moment....until 2018. They were so close to repeating as champs. They had a walkoff win against the Angels in the ALDS on Jed Lowrie's hit. If Lowell and Beckett had stayed healthy I think they would have beaten TB and quite possibly have gotten past Philly. These were great memories, in addition to 2021 if Sox teams that didn't win the ultimate prize but had a successful season. I didn't get to see 1967 or 1975, but those seasons looked large in Sox history.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on May 8, 2022 17:23:40 GMT -5
Confessions of a Bloom Supporter
I like Bloom. Just philosophically, I like his approach to building the team. And I think most of his moves have been pretty smart, and often creative. But the conversation about Bloom is polarizing, with some people sort of suggesting he's not to blame at all for the team's performance, and I don't think that's quite right. To wit:
- He made the one sort of move I really loathe: he handed out a big contract to a "Proven Closer." That is almost always a bad wager; relievers are just too unpredictable. And so it has gone with Barnes. Much better, in my opinion, would have been to add two or three additional Diekman/Strahm-tier relievers rather than putting all those eggs in Barnes' basket (which he did, in retrospect, at the absolute and anomalous peak of Barnes' value).
- I, personally, went into this season feeling okay about rolling with Dalbec until Casas was ready, so it's not like I was smarter than Bloom on this one. But of course, it's his job to be smarter than me, and they needed a better backup plan than Shaw, who has been terrible for a while and cost them an incredible half a win in just 20 PAs or something. A professional baseball knower should have been able to see that Shaw was cooked.
- Why not just sign Pham or the equivalent? I'll never get that. My feeling on the Renfroe-for-JBJ trade is like a lot of people's: I liked it in isolation, but it left a gap in the team's offensive profile that he failed to fill. In particular, adding a 1B/OF type to cover at least one of Dalbec and JBJ in the event of hitting futility would have been wise.
- In general, the team has wildly underperformed any reasonable projections for offensive production, and most of that can't be laid at Bloom's feet. But there was a fair amount of downside risk with this lineup going into the season: regression to the mean for Kiké; Vazquez and JDM on the downslope of their aging curves; the aforementioned Dalbec and JBJ... And this on a team that was good-not-great in 2021 (107 wRC+) and let Schwarber and Renfroe go. Story and JBJ are great on defense, which seemed to be Bloom's priority, but boy, it sure would be nice to still have Schwarber around...
This is the kind of reasoned post that makes this site worth following. I suggest that we could use a thread just to discuss Bloom. That would take some of the discussion out of the game threads, which (understandably when the team is this lousy) contain too much frustration and repetition. I don't know that I am a supporter of Bloom as much as I am a supporter of the Bloom approach. I think his philosophy is to make player development the MLB team's primary source of talent. I hope he gets the farm system rolling and we see a lot of what Tampa did with Wander Franco. I'd love to see 2023 AL ROY Tristan Casas sign a long-term contract that makes him filthy rich, buys out some of his cost-controlled years and gives the RS a reasonably priced star through the player's prime years. I agree with some of the points you make in your post and disagree with some of the others. But more importantly, it's honest and presented in a way that inspires thought. The never-ending whine of "Bloom sucks because he traded my favorite player more than two years ago instead of paying him $35M a year and I can't get over it" is childish and annoying and does nothing to elevate the level of discussion, in my opinion. Whether I end up as a Bloom supporter, as well as a supporter of his approach, will depend on his evaluation skills and decision making. So far, I like some of what I see and question other moves. But I honestly feel the true test will come when he has some year-to-year financial flexibility. If he can create financial flexibility and a player development machine, he should have a combination that will lead to sustained success. Your anti-Bloom position is a straw man. No one is complaining about Betts here. In fact, the main complaints are: A) not getting a closer B) Not getting a legit OF C) signing Story D) not moving on X and Devers None of that is whining. Those are all perfectly reasonable — and not even hindsight. A lot of people said these things during the winter. If there is any appearance of residual complaining about Mookie and Beni, say, for my part it is that each year he has let the OF get worse on paper — which really returns me to (B) — and makes me wonder what the “plan” is. This OF is close to a gut job. Where will the talent come from? That is not about those trades (very old news at this point)…. It is about the here-and-now and seasons to come. Please let Duran be 1/3 of that next OF!
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Post by benzinger on May 8, 2022 17:47:38 GMT -5
Wstanding. But the point is that last year was successful, not the ultimate success of course. It won't be up there with 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 of course, but it revived the fanbase for one fun season..it was electic at Fenway last October. I get your point. Growing up last century, the hero talk was 1967 and Pudge's Game 6 HR off the foul pole...but no championships. This century we're spoiled. 2007 almost gets forgotten because they've won so often so yeah it raises the bar we're a nice season isn't as rewarding as a championship season....and it feels strange to regard 1967 as a success, although without it, the Red Sox might have vacated Fenway and moved out of Boston. For me, 2021 is a nice season, the way I remember 1988, 1990, 1995, 1999, or 2008. This is the right analysis. None of us are as frantic as we were prior to 2004. I remember as a kid, my grandfather said to me “You can live to be my age and you still won’t see the Red Sox win the World Series.” There was such a loser mentality with the old-timers and the Boomers(and for good reason). But now they’ve won 4 Championships. Sometimes I have to stop and confirm that, yes, there are actually 4 of them! We’ve been spoiled and we’ve become spoiled, as a result. Our expectations have been raised even as the stress of being a Sox fan has dropped. I’ve said in the past that NO sports franchise is as boom and bust as the Red Sox are. It’s in their DNA. For some reason, this is a clear bust year. I’m OK with that. I didn’t think they were as good as Toronto or NYY going into the season(probably TB, too, even though I really can’t figure it out), and it’s clear that they aren’t. None of us expected them to be THIS bad, though. Since they are, they have to maximize their trade assets and load up on prospects ASAP. I would imagine something similar to what the Cubs did last year. Xander, JDM, Kikè, Eovaldi, Hill, Wacha, any relievers that are in demand etc... should be traded. They can reset the books and load up on prospects in the process. Then they have a ton of payroll flexibility in the off-season to rebuild on the fly(and a top 10 draft pick wouldn’t hurt, either). They can flip right back into contention very quickly(the way they did in 2013 and last year). I’m interested to see what Bloom comes up with.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 8, 2022 17:50:51 GMT -5
This is the kind of reasoned post that makes this site worth following. I suggest that we could use a thread just to discuss Bloom. That would take some of the discussion out of the game threads, which (understandably when the team is this lousy) contain too much frustration and repetition. I don't know that I am a supporter of Bloom as much as I am a supporter of the Bloom approach. I think his philosophy is to make player development the MLB team's primary source of talent. I hope he gets the farm system rolling and we see a lot of what Tampa did with Wander Franco. I'd love to see 2023 AL ROY Tristan Casas sign a long-term contract that makes him filthy rich, buys out some of his cost-controlled years and gives the RS a reasonably priced star through the player's prime years. I agree with some of the points you make in your post and disagree with some of the others. But more importantly, it's honest and presented in a way that inspires thought. The never-ending whine of "Bloom sucks because he traded my favorite player more than two years ago instead of paying him $35M a year and I can't get over it" is childish and annoying and does nothing to elevate the level of discussion, in my opinion. Whether I end up as a Bloom supporter, as well as a supporter of his approach, will depend on his evaluation skills and decision making. So far, I like some of what I see and question other moves. But I honestly feel the true test will come when he has some year-to-year financial flexibility. If he can create financial flexibility and a player development machine, he should have a combination that will lead to sustained success. Your anti-Bloom position is a straw man. No one is complaining about Betts here. In fact, the main complaints are: A) not getting a closer B) Not getting a legit OF C) signing Story D) not moving on X and Devers None of that is whining. Those are all perfectly reasonable — and not even hindsight. A lot of people said these things during the winter. If there is any appearance of residual complaining about Mookie and Beni, say, for my part it is that each year he has let the OF get worse on paper — which really returns me to (B) — and makes me wonder what the “plan” is. This OF is close to a gut job. Where will the talent come from? That is not about those trades (very old news at this point)…. It is about the here-and-now and seasons to come. Please let Duran be 1/3 of that next OF! How was last year's OF worse on paper than the 2020 OF? Also, the 2021 OF produced more WAR than the Killer B's (Beni, JBJ and MB) did for their teams and for tens of millions less in salary. Those numbers were posted on here several times last year. As far as not moving on X and Devers, we don't know for sure what has gone on or hasn't gone on there. From press reports (I know, but it's all we have) my impression is that the org hasn't been serious enough about re-signing X but that Raffy and his agent are being unreasonable. I'd offer X $150 million over six years - that's in line with what RS Stats suggested in a deep-dive story last year - and move on from him if he turns it down. Raffy is on pace for 3.9 B-Ref WAR, which is in line with what he produced last year. That's a good player, not a superstar. If someone else wants to give him 10 years and $300M, let them do it. And no, there is no straw man here. Your A, B, C and D above are not the reasons you are reflexively critical of Bloom and you know it. You were critical last year, too, when the team was having a good year.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on May 8, 2022 18:02:13 GMT -5
Your anti-Bloom position is a straw man. No one is complaining about Betts here. In fact, the main complaints are: A) not getting a closer B) Not getting a legit OF C) signing Story D) not moving on X and Devers None of that is whining. Those are all perfectly reasonable — and not even hindsight. A lot of people said these things during the winter. If there is any appearance of residual complaining about Mookie and Beni, say, for my part it is that each year he has let the OF get worse on paper — which really returns me to (B) — and makes me wonder what the “plan” is. This OF is close to a gut job. Where will the talent come from? That is not about those trades (very old news at this point)…. It is about the here-and-now and seasons to come. Please let Duran be 1/3 of that next OF! How was last year's OF worse on paper than the 2020 OF? Also, the 2021 OF produced more WAR than the Killer B's (Beni, JBJ and MB) did for their teams and for tens of millions less in salary. Those numbers were posted on here several times last year. As far as not moving on X and Devers, we don't know for sure what has gone on or hasn't gone on there. From press reports (I know, but it's all we have) my impression is that the org hasn't been serious enough about re-signing X but that Raffy and his agent are being unreasonable. I'd offer X $150 million over six years - that's in line with what RS Stats suggested in a deep-dive story last year - and move on from him if he turns it down. Raffy is on pace for 3.9 B-Ref WAR, which is in line with what he produced last year. That's a good player, not a superstar. If someone else wants to give him 10 years and $300M, let them do it. And no, there is no straw man here. Your A, B, C and D above are not the reasons you are reflexively critical of Bloom and you know it. You were critical last year, too, when the team was having a good year. Honestly it does seem like if you don’t start from the assumption that everything he does is great, you are not only a hater but an irrational hater. I gave props for good moves last year like Whitlock and Kiké. I was critical of obvious mistakes like Richards and Franchy (though I am not critical of trading Beni in the abstract). But I guess one should not question those things. But my main takeaway from the last 3 years is that 2 have been the two most miserable years I can think of since Bobby V. That stands out more than anything. And that this team is not even that likeable — serious charisma deficit and lots of turnover.
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 8, 2022 18:11:41 GMT -5
In any event, only Detroit is worse in the AL. Not ideal ..but "still early"
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 8, 2022 18:17:30 GMT -5
How was last year's OF worse on paper than the 2020 OF? Also, the 2021 OF produced more WAR than the Killer B's (Beni, JBJ and MB) did for their teams and for tens of millions less in salary. Those numbers were posted on here several times last year. As far as not moving on X and Devers, we don't know for sure what has gone on or hasn't gone on there. From press reports (I know, but it's all we have) my impression is that the org hasn't been serious enough about re-signing X but that Raffy and his agent are being unreasonable. I'd offer X $150 million over six years - that's in line with what RS Stats suggested in a deep-dive story last year - and move on from him if he turns it down. Raffy is on pace for 3.9 B-Ref WAR, which is in line with what he produced last year. That's a good player, not a superstar. If someone else wants to give him 10 years and $300M, let them do it. And no, there is no straw man here. Your A, B, C and D above are not the reasons you are reflexively critical of Bloom and you know it. You were critical last year, too, when the team was having a good year. Honestly it does seem like if you don’t start from the assumption that everything he does is great, you are not only a hater but an irrational hater. I gave props for good moves last year like Whitlock and Kiké. I was critical of obvious mistakes like Richards and Franchy (though I am not critical of trading Beni in the abstract). But I guess one should not question those things. But my main takeaway from the last 3 years is that 2 have been the two most miserable years I can think of since Bobby V. That stands out more than anything. And that this team is not even that likeable — serious charisma deficit and lots of turnover. I don't at all feel that we should assume everything he does is great. I've said on this board - in this thread, in fact - that the team's crap performance this year (and calling it crap is probably an insult to crap) is on him, among others. I've been critical of some moves and remain critical of some of them. I wish he could have gotten a P (Josiah Gray) in the MB trade, instead of Downs, even if it meant subsidizing more of Price's salary. If the Myers/Campuasano trade was ever a possibility, I wish he had finished it. I still don't like the return in the Beni trade. I've been critical of other moves he has made but then had to eat crow when they worked out. The KKH signing would be at the top of the list. I liked the concept of taking on JBJ's salary for a prospect but was unimpressed by the prospect, Alex Binelas. Now the kid is mashing with a 1.000 OPS, so I might be wrong on that one too. I hope I am. And in all fairness, praising the Whitlock and KKH acquisitions aren't great evidence that you're even-handed when judging CB. Getting GW was an outright pantsing of the MFY. And no matter how KKH's 2022 turns out, that low-cost acquisition was great based just on his 2021.
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Post by taiwansox on May 8, 2022 18:33:27 GMT -5
Negotiating with them is a pain. I want nothing to do with those idiots after they tried to low ball us during the Mookie deal. They are 3-25 in their last 28 playoff games and act like they’re in some weird sort of position of strength when we talk to them. No, they’ve made their bed. Now lie in it. Do not help these guys. Do you remember when we were trying to trade for Johan Santana and they wanted, Ellsbury, Lester, and Lowrie and ended up getting the Mets’ package haha. They were flexible though and might have accepted Ellsbury, Buchholz, and Lowrie…those guys are idiots
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Post by soxinsf on May 8, 2022 19:08:00 GMT -5
I'm glad Alex is shaving the beard. It's time. Can't keep that stuff during a losing streak. Not kidding. It's not going to fix things but just a sign of pride and desperation. Story, I'm still willing to give some benefit of the doubt given short spring, baby, new city, new position. Also I have to since we have 5.8 more seasons... Bring up Duran and Casas and shake up the bullpen. Depth be damned, depth hasn't gotten us $#%& this year. Act desperate because it's getting late early this year. Hitting coach shakeup shouldn't be far behind. Duran, yes, but Casas just isn't ready yet. He's got a lot of maturity for his age but just not enough seasoning.
Wouldn't mind seeing what Fitzy can do with some big league ABs although both he and Casas need to figure out how to hit AAA LHP.
If Bobby goes down, as he surely will if he does not get his act together very soon and Arroyo inherits 1B, then the Sox bring up a utility guy, and maybe replace Franchy at the same time. Fitzy and Duran would be my first choices. Arauz, Y Sanchez and Downs are all possibilities. The Sox are not short on alternatives not named Casas.
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