SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by incandenza on Oct 16, 2022 11:56:52 GMT -5
The real measure of a team is the regular season. Baseball tournaments are extremely fun though, and they're more fun the more important you think they are. I wish there were some button to push that would elevate the prestige of having the best record in the regular season or something like that. As it is, we play 162 regular season games, and then 40% of the teams go into the playoffs, and then a champion is decided among those 40% by short playoff series in the sport that has the highest degree of random variance of any of the major sports. And then all anyone will remember is who the winner of that random-ass tournament is; if you have a phenomenal regular season like the Dodgers and then lose in the tournament, that's interpreted as failing that much worse. The playoffs are fun. It's just that the concept of "champion" has been thoroughly unmoored from the concept of "best team."
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Oct 16, 2022 11:59:31 GMT -5
My curmudgeonly opinion is that the Phillies are a pretty mediocre team and the new playoff system getting them into the NLCS instead of an actual quality team is not very good for baseball. The bright side is that everything the Phillies do well makes Joe Girardi look more and more incompetent. And this is another reason I don't root for the underdogs. The NLCS should be a showcase for two of BB's best teams going head to head. Instead, it's the 87-win Phillies playing the 89-win Pads. The Phillies finished in third place 14 games behind the Braves. The Pads finished 22 games behind the LAD. Can anyone plausibly argue that this system isn't a total sham when it comes picking a legitimate champion? Our order of preference in any given year should be: 1. Red Sox, Red Sox and Red Sox 2. Blocking the MFY 3. A credible champion that doesn't make the sport look like a joke
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Oct 16, 2022 12:04:56 GMT -5
Rather than my reference to the 1940s and 1950s, let me reference a more recent, more beloved playoff tournament.
In 2004, the two best teams in the American League were pretty clearly the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox, who had met in the previous year's ALCS>. They had the best records, best pythag records, best players, most history.
-Under the current scenario, the 98-win Red Sox have to play a first-round series against a 91-win Athletics squad that had seen its depth depleted some from previous years but could still throw Hudson, Mulder, and Zito in a short series, and also had a recent history of having led in series through three games. -If, IF, the Red Sox get through that Oakland series, the Division Series round match has them playing the Yankees, because they are the four seed and the Yankees are the one seed. As I recall, while the Red Sox won a best-of-seven series against the 2004 Yankees, they'd not have won that series were it a best of five. -Seemed okay to me for the game of baseball and the TV folks that the same teams got to play in the ALCS for two years in a row. Almost like having the best teams again made the stakes feel higher. -I'm sure fans of the 89-win Texas Rangers would've enjoyed the current system. Does that outweigh the benefits of the previous set-up?
Explain to me what is better about the new system.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 16, 2022 12:14:35 GMT -5
Rather than my reference to the 1940s and 1950s, let me reference a more recent, more beloved playoff tournament. In 2004, the two best teams in the American League were pretty clearly the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox, who had met in the previous year's ALCS>. They had the best records, best pythag records, best players, most history. -Under the current scenario, the 98-win Red Sox have to play a first-round series against a 91-win Athletics squad that had seen its depth depleted some from previous years but could still throw Hudson, Mulder, and Zito in a short series, and also had a recent history of having led in series through three games. -If, IF, the Red Sox get through that Oakland series, the Division Series round match has them playing the Yankees, because they are the four seed and the Yankees are the one seed. As I recall, while the Red Sox won a best-of-seven series against the 2004 Yankees, they'd not have won that series were it a best of five. -Seemed okay to me for the game of baseball and the TV folks that the same teams got to play in the ALCS for two years in a row. Almost like having the best teams again made the stakes feel higher. Explain to me what is better about the new system. Revenues.
|
|
|
Post by xdmo on Oct 16, 2022 12:26:10 GMT -5
Cole with the season on the line has potential to be extra delicious. Hopefully he comes up clutch again.
|
|
|
Post by gregblossersbelly on Oct 16, 2022 12:31:24 GMT -5
Potential Yankee Elimination Day! Can’t believe they thought Schiraldi could close out the game😂
|
|
|
Post by xdmo on Oct 16, 2022 12:36:12 GMT -5
The real measure of a team is the regular season. Baseball tournaments are extremely fun though, and they're more fun the more important you think they are. The Red Sox model of having a great manager (maybe except for 2013). Great top of the rotation (Pedro, Schilling, Becket, Lester, Price, Sale). Great lineups (too many to list). Great closer (Papelbon, Foulke, Koji, maybe not 2018 lol). You tend to beat the randomness of the playoffs with all these elements. Having a great manager is really key. Every decision now 5 times greater. Maybe this new format is a complete changer. Not sure, we'll have to see more years down the line, rather than one year of results. For all those complaining about the best team not winning, the Astros are still kicking the total crap out of everyone. I pretty much think they're going to win the whole thing again, and be shocked at this point if it doesn't happen after what happened last night.
|
|
|
Post by Underwater Johnson on Oct 16, 2022 12:59:57 GMT -5
I bet the 5th and 7th best teams' fans would disagree. I mean this in a constructive way... so what? Spreading out championship trophies amongst teams of varying quality in order to make those fans feel good isn't really a goal of sporting competition. And, while I have nothing else to back this up, it doesn't seem to me like it would be a great business model. The best basketball and football teams playing at or near the end every year builds up a lot more excitement, it feels like a bigger deal when a team breaks through, and when a big upset does happen it feels like a big upset. The best team in the league not making it to the conference finals year after year doesn't feel like a feature to me. I bet we would have shouted the same thing if the 1949-51 Red Sox could've gotten and gone on a run Instead of a playoff system that could've given them a chance to beat a better team, they could've made the available moves to become the better team. www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/36622/george-digby-and-willie-mays-the-one-who-got-away----- Now, I'm not saying that we need to go back to a no-playoffs, best AL Team vs. best NL Team format. But the 12th best of 30 teams having essentially the same chance to win a World Series as the 5th? I dunno, that's a pretty big dropoff to me. Using the mid-century Yankees, who simply bought all the best players, as an example of what baseball should strive to be seems disingenuous to me. Also, as long as you brought it up, who were the great Black stars on those teams?
Baseball and other sports have since recognized that they are a form of entertainment (something made crystal clear during covid, when they were the first thing to get cancelled) and they now recognize that engaging with the fans of all the teams, not just the successful teams that are built based on sabrmetrics, is important to the game's growth and revenues. This is why they strive for parity and to keep it interesting for as many fan bases as possible.
This is the purpose of the multiple wild cards -- not so that an 88-win team can undeservedly win it all, like the 2021 Braves, but so that more teams are in the race at the end of the season and it's exciting for the most people possible. I enjoy that excitement and so do the scads of fans of teams scrambling for WC spots who buy tickets to September games when they would have otherwise stayed home.
After that, if you're a 111-win team and you can't beat an 89-win team in a 5-game series (a team that you beat in six 3-game series during the regular season), I'm sorry, that's on you and your manager and your players. Do better, LAD.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Oct 16, 2022 13:06:52 GMT -5
Maybe they can give a regular season champion.
But either way, the postseason has been fun so far. The Mariners played well, but the result was as it should be. The Phils get to redeem a slow start and underachieving players. The Padres show that getting stars at the deadline might matter more than a slow start.
No system is perfect, and a champion is always a tournament champion.
And it is hard to complain about the system but also cheer for the Sox to get the second WC. If last season is a “success,” then it is so under these rules… which could result in a Phillies title. Doubt it, but could.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Oct 16, 2022 13:18:59 GMT -5
Maybe they can give a regular season champion. But either way, the postseason has been fun so far. The Mariners played well, but the result was as it should be. The Phils get to redeem a slow start and underachieving players. The Padres show that getting stars at the deadline might matter more than a slow start. No system is perfect, and a champion is always a tournament champion. And it is hard to complain about the system but also cheer for the Sox to get the second WC. If last season is a “success,” then it is so under these rules… which could result in a Phillies title. Doubt it, but could. You're basically doing the "yet you participate in society" meme. The system is the system, and it incentivizes teams to go for 90 wins rather than 105 wins, and to get the 2nd seed rather than the 1st, and to get the 6th seed rather than the 5th, and it cheapens the value of a 162 game season, and all around it is very flawed. It's fair to complain about it. But it's the system we have, and under a similar system (that wasn't *as* bad) the Red Sox had a great run last year, and the Phillies are on a nice run this year, and winning the second wild card with an 88 win season gives you a shot at the championship so it makes sense to cheer for that.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Oct 16, 2022 13:29:09 GMT -5
Maybe they can give a regular season champion. But either way, the postseason has been fun so far. The Mariners played well, but the result was as it should be. The Phils get to redeem a slow start and underachieving players. The Padres show that getting stars at the deadline might matter more than a slow start. No system is perfect, and a champion is always a tournament champion. And it is hard to complain about the system but also cheer for the Sox to get the second WC. If last season is a “success,” then it is so under these rules… which could result in a Phillies title. Doubt it, but could. You're basically doing the "yet you participate in society" meme. The system is the system, and it incentivizes teams to go for 90 wins rather than 105 wins, and to get the 2nd seed rather than the 1st, and to get the 6th seed rather than the 5th, and it cheapens the value of a 162 game season, and all around it is very flawed. It's fair to complain about it. But it's the system we have, and under a similar system (that wasn't *as* bad) the Red Sox had a great run last year, and the Phillies are on a nice run this year, and winning the second wild card with an 88 win season gives you a shot at the championship so it makes sense to cheer for that. Not just be in the system but actually cheer it. If we want to say it is a bad system, we should discount the Sox season last year as part of that. I have no problem saying a team that goes through 3 teams has earned a title. If, for example, the Phils were to beat the Braves, Padres, and Astros (bismillah), I applaud them.
|
|
|
Post by congusgambler33 on Oct 16, 2022 14:08:34 GMT -5
the best deal the Padres made was getting Bob Melvin as their manager.
|
|
|
Post by benzinger on Oct 16, 2022 14:15:42 GMT -5
This system isn’t perfect but it’s definitely gotten better over the years. It’s set up to reward the teams that had the best regular seasons with a bye in the first round and homefield advantage in the Divisonal round. On paper, that is what a team should want. In practice, the teams with byes have mostly looked pretty flat after 5-6 days off at the end of the season.
But we are also looking for the teams that are playing the best in October. The Yankees, for example, were the best team from April-June and then really morphed into an average ballclub the rest of the way. The Dodgers didn’t play a really important game for 2-3 months and then couldn’t flip the switch when they needed to. Meanwhile, desperate teams like Philly & SD are peaking at the right time. That’s what really matters the most. It’s like saying the Dodgers had an “A” all semester and then flunked the final exam. We are in Finals now. Time to show how you do under real pressure.
|
|
|
Post by congusgambler33 on Oct 16, 2022 14:16:13 GMT -5
I don't think that the powers that be expected the NL finals to be 2 wild card teams..Who knew?
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 16, 2022 14:17:59 GMT -5
I hated the wild card when it came out as I felt it devalued 1st place.
I eventually came around to the thought of how artificial finishing first can be in an ultra weak division.
I mean they went from 2 seven team divisions to 3 five team divisions where you're only beating out 4 other teams rather than 6 or 7.
I didnt like that the wild card was pretty much on equal footing with the division winner.
Which is why I liked the new wrinkle of 2 wild cards and a one game playoff, the game teams wanted to avoid.
But this format now is ridiculous. Too many teams. They don't adjust seedings to determine the next round.
The purist in me would prefer another expansion to bring the total to 32 teams and go back to a 4 division 8 team setup and have only a LCS and a World Series.
It's not going to happen.
In my scenario, they could add 4 wild cards per league and have them do a coin toss playoff game to determine two winners and then be on the road in a division series against the division winner in a best of 5, but with a wrinkle that the division winner is awarded an automatic victory, so that the division winner only needs 2 wins to advance while the wild card entry needs 3 wins to advance.
I know that'll tick people off but I'd like to see the division winners, teams who beat out 7 other teams get big advantages that are earned from the regular season than everything just being a big postseason tournament crapshoot.
|
|
|
Post by xdmo on Oct 16, 2022 15:11:52 GMT -5
Cleveland won without having to use their closer in Clase. He might be good for 2 innings tonight. Maybe more.
Hopefully this doesn't jinx things, but Clase might be the best closer in MLB. He's given up 5 HOMERUNS. Yes 5 in 140+ innings pitched the past 2 seasons. That's almost impossible. His WHIP is incredible, too. Just doesn't give up base runners.
Hopefully the Guardians have the lead after 7 innings tonight.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 16, 2022 15:13:42 GMT -5
Cleveland won without having to use their closer in Clase. He might be good for 2 innings tonight. Maybe more. Hopefully this doesn't jinx things, but Clase might be the best closer in MLB. He's given up 5 HOMERUNS. Yes 5 in 140+ innings pitched the past 2 seasons. That's almost impossible. His WHIP is incredible, too. Just doesn't give up base runners. Hopefully the Guardians have the lead after 7 innings tonight. I'd prefer the Guardians have the lead after 9 innings tonight.
|
|
|
Post by xdmo on Oct 16, 2022 15:14:42 GMT -5
Cleveland won without having to use their closer in Clase. He might be good for 2 innings tonight. Maybe more. Hopefully this doesn't jinx things, but Clase might be the best closer in MLB. He's given up 5 HOMERUNS. Yes 5 in 140+ innings pitched the past 2 seasons. That's almost impossible. His WHIP is incredible, too. Just doesn't give up base runners. Hopefully the Guardians have the lead after 7 innings tonight. I'd prefer the Guardians have the lead after 9 innings tonight. Ha, yeah definitely. Wouldn't surprise me to see Tito go to Clase with 2 outs in the 7th inning. I remember him doing that with Papelbon in 2007, but prime Papelbon was a beast in himself.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 16, 2022 15:38:38 GMT -5
I'd prefer the Guardians have the lead after 9 innings tonight. Ha, yeah definitely. Wouldn't surprise me to see Tito go to Clase with 2 outs in the 7th inning. I remember him doing that with Papelbon in 2007, but prime Papelbon was a beast in himself. I don't remember Tito bringing in Papelbon in the 7th in 2007. At least a couple of times Papelbon came in during the 8th - I remember him doing so in World Series Game 3 and he got the last 5 outs in clinching Game 4 of the World Series. Francona did bring in Foulke during the 7th inning during Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS and he pitched 2.1 innings and got them to extra innings and then in Game 5 of the ALCS Foulke came in with 2 outs in the 8th and got 4 outs which got them to extra innings. Francona also used Foulke for 2 innings in Game 1 of the 2004 World Series.
|
|
|
Post by xdmo on Oct 16, 2022 16:06:27 GMT -5
Ha, yeah definitely. Wouldn't surprise me to see Tito go to Clase with 2 outs in the 7th inning. I remember him doing that with Papelbon in 2007, but prime Papelbon was a beast in himself. I don't remember Tito bringing in Papelbon in the 7th in 2007. At least a couple of times Papelbon came in during the 8th - I remember him doing so in World Series Game 3 and he got the last 5 outs in clinching Game 4 of the World Series. Francona did bring in Foulke during the 7th inning during Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS and he pitched 2.1 innings and got them to extra innings and then in Game 5 of the ALCS Foulke came in with 2 outs in the 8th and got 4 outs which got them to extra innings. Francona also used Foulke for 2 innings in Game 1 of the 2004 World Series. Ohh you're right, he did bring in Okajima for 2 and a third in game 2 of the world series. He used Papelbon everyday in the last three games over a inning. Tito was way ahead of his time bringing in his best relievers for multi-innings. That's now the trend everyone is doing and what Whitlock has been successful at to this point.
|
|
|
Post by Papi's Gift on Oct 16, 2022 16:49:20 GMT -5
I hated the wild card when it came out as I felt it devalued 1st place. I eventually came around to the thought of how artificial finishing first can be in an ultra weak division. I mean they went from 2 seven team divisions to 3 five team divisions where you're only beating out 4 other teams rather than 6 or 7. I didnt like that the wild card was pretty much on equal footing with the division winner. Which is why I liked the new wrinkle of 2 wild cards and a one game playoff, the game teams wanted to avoid. But this format now is ridiculous. Too many teams. They don't adjust seedings to determine the next round. The purist in me would prefer another expansion to bring the total to 32 teams and go back to a 4 division 8 team setup and have only a LCS and a World Series. It's not going to happen. In my scenario, they could add 4 wild cards per league and have them do a coin toss playoff game to determine two winners and then be on the road in a division series against the division winner in a best of 5, but with a wrinkle that the division winner is awarded an automatic victory, so that the division winner only needs 2 wins to advance while the wild card entry needs 3 wins to advance. I know that'll tick people off but I'd like to see the division winners, teams who beat out 7 other teams get big advantages that are earned from the regular season than everything just being a big postseason tournament crapshoot.
|
|
|
Post by Papi's Gift on Oct 16, 2022 16:53:34 GMT -5
For what it's worth, this is what Japan does for its "Climax Series", their version of the LCS. (Whatever you think of the format, I'd say we should definitely not adopt the name.) This cut and paste from Wikipedia explains it: "Both leagues play a regular season, after which the top three teams in each league compete against one another in a two-stage playoff. In the First Stage, the teams that finish the regular season with the second- and third-best records play one another in a best-of-three series. The winners of these three-game series advance to the Final Stage to face each league's regular-season champion in a six-game series, which the regular-season champion starts with a one-game advantage. The winners of each league's Final Stage series compete against one another in that year's Japan Series.
|
|
|
Post by Underwater Johnson on Oct 16, 2022 18:02:44 GMT -5
Maybe they can give a regular season champion.But either way, the postseason has been fun so far. The Mariners played well, but the result was as it should be. The Phils get to redeem a slow start and underachieving players. The Padres show that getting stars at the deadline might matter more than a slow start. No system is perfect, and a champion is always a tournament champion. And it is hard to complain about the system but also cheer for the Sox to get the second WC. If last season is a “success,” then it is so under these rules… which could result in a Phillies title. Doubt it, but could. Hockey has the President's Trophy, which is awarded to the regular season points leader. Seems like small consolation -- and it is compared to the Stanley Cup -- but it is what it is and people do refer to it when talking about past Bruins teams that won it but not the Cup.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Oct 16, 2022 18:37:11 GMT -5
Maybe the Bader trade wasn’t so crazy?
I’ve seen enough. On to game five.
|
|
|
Post by kevfc89 on Oct 16, 2022 18:37:11 GMT -5
Quantrill has a hard time missing bats, bad matchup against this Yankees lineup
|
|
|