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Post by tizzle on Dec 26, 2022 20:11:25 GMT -5
I have a plan to woo and wed Margo Robbie. You can debate the merits of my eating of DoubleStuf Oreos and watching TV, but it would be dumb to say it's not a plan. Better spell her name right! Then I think you have a real chance. I did. It was autocorrected.
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Post by julyanmorley on Dec 26, 2022 20:13:17 GMT -5
If you're still mad about them staying over the luxury tax, I think you are seriously overestimating the impact of their one comp pick being pushed back from #80 to #140. The only other effect is that John Henry spent some extra cash.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 20:24:46 GMT -5
This “they had no plan at the deadline” stuff is nonsense. They had a plan- to try to make some low cost, easy upgrades and get some guys back from injury to push for the playoffs. It ended up not working out. You can debate the merits of their decision and that is certainly valid. It does not mean they didn’t have a plan. I have a plan to woo and wed Margot Robbie. You can debate the merits of my eating of DoubleStuf Oreos and watching TV, but it would be dumb to say it's not a plan. Even at 20% they’re much more likely to make the playoffs than you were to even meet Margot Robbie! I’m not saying I agree with what they did- if I had my way they’d go under- but those of us posting on Sox prospects forum tend to view things differently than the majority of Sox fans who would’ve thrown a fit if they punted on even a relatively small chance at the playoffs. Plus I’m sure ownership wanted to keep the stadium full for as long as possible. I think we’re also overstating the impact of them not going under.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 20:31:00 GMT -5
It didn’t? Fairly certain they were already over heading into trade season. Hosmer was free, McGuire is cheaper than Vazquez, they dumped Diekman and added Pham It’s a silly little false narrative. You can disagree with their plan but to say they didn’t have one is wrong. All they had to do was dump JD for literally anything, and they get under. They stopped selling when the team got pissed about Vazquez and pivoted to buying. They were longshots at the deadline and buying made no sense. If it was a "plan," there was no thought at all, and it was shotgunned. Much like the offseason. Lost me when you stated “ They stopped selling when the team got pissed about Vazquez and pivoted to buying” as if it were fact Radio quality silliness They were never sellers. They sold off a piece that wasn’t in their long term plans and was a meh player (and ended up getting a guy that was better than him for the rest of the year). They were always pretty clear about trying to improve the team at the deadline
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 26, 2022 20:38:32 GMT -5
I have a plan to woo and wed Margot Robbie. You can debate the merits of my eating of DoubleStuf Oreos and watching TV, but it would be dumb to say it's not a plan. Even at 20% they’re much more likely to make the playoffs than you were to even meet Margot Robbie! I’m not saying I agree with what they did- if I had my way they’d go under- but those of us posting on Sox prospects forum tend to view things differently than the majority of Sox fans who would’ve thrown a fit if they punted on even a relatively small chance at the playoffs. Plus I’m sure ownership wanted to keep the stadium full for as long as possible. I think we’re also overstating the impact of them not going under. The stadium didn't stay full. Fans got the sense it was a sinking ship and you could see it with the empty seats and the lower viewership NESN numbers. Now if the Sox break the cycle of going over for a couple of seasons and then ducking under for a season, then other than screwing themselves out of a higher round pick for X (and perhaps Eovaldi as well), no harm, no foul. But I don't see the Sox breaking that cycle, so it meant that they needed to reset this year or would have to next year. Which hurts their chances in years where that extra spending could be a difference maker. It certainly wasn't going to be in July of 2022. That was obvious. So I do think that was a miss right there. Fans are fans. But I think for the most part a lot of them have a good sense if they have a team that's possibly going somewhere versus one that really isn't. I don't think you have to be some major baseball mathematician to have that kind of a sense. I'm trying to think of seasons where I thought they weren't going to go somewhere in July of that season and they did or the other way around. In 2011 I thought they were at last a Wild Card team. I didn't see them choking that badly until they started to and others were saying it was impossible for them to blow it. In 2004 I wasn't really believing that much in the team although I knew they had a good shot at the wild card. I think that A-Rod/Tek brawl game woke them up and got my attention that the team was done slumbering (and yes I know it took 2 weeks before they caught fire but something felt different that day). But for the most part there is usually an indication with the Red Sox which direction they're going in by time they hit the end of July. In 1991 I'll admit I didn't have any sense the Sox had a chance. Yet after being 50-58, at some point in mid-August they got red hot and went 31-19 and were within 1 strike of beating the Yankees to move into 1st place....and then collapsed and wound up 7 games out and as dead as they looked prior to that shocking August/early to mid Sept run.
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Post by tizzle on Dec 26, 2022 20:39:50 GMT -5
I have a plan to woo and wed Margot Robbie. You can debate the merits of my eating of DoubleStuf Oreos and watching TV, but it would be dumb to say it's not a plan. Even at 20% they’re much more likely to make the playoffs than you were to even meet Margot Robbie! I’m not saying I agree with what they did- if I had my way they’d go under- but those of us posting on Sox prospects forum tend to view things differently than the majority of Sox fans who would’ve thrown a fit if they punted on even a relatively small chance at the playoffs. Plus I’m sure ownership wanted to keep the stadium full for as long as possible. I think we’re also overstating the impact of them not going under. If they were really trying to win with that mediocre team, then make some real upgrades. They didn't. They were just acting like they were trying to compete. They weren't.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 26, 2022 20:40:42 GMT -5
All they had to do was dump JD for literally anything, and they get under. They stopped selling when the team got pissed about Vazquez and pivoted to buying. They were longshots at the deadline and buying made no sense. If it was a "plan," there was no thought at all, and it was shotgunned. Much like the offseason. Lost me when you stated “ They stopped selling when the team got pissed about Vazquez and pivoted to buying” as if it were fact Radio quality silliness They were never sellers. They sold off a piece that wasn’t in their long term plans and was a meh player (and ended up getting a guy that was better than him for the rest of the year). They were always pretty clear about trying to improve the team at the deadline You have a narrative and won't deviate. I don't even think that was on sports radio. The quotes from the players made them seem broken. Why stop at Vazquez? It's just a weird piece to stop with. They could have gotten something for Eovaldi and JD. It was also never clear that they were buying. Everyone expected them to sell. Selling off a clubhouse leader and a crappy middle reliever is a very crappy plan. They ended up staying over the tax and it cost them big time.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 20:50:48 GMT -5
Even at 20% they’re much more likely to make the playoffs than you were to even meet Margot Robbie! I’m not saying I agree with what they did- if I had my way they’d go under- but those of us posting on Sox prospects forum tend to view things differently than the majority of Sox fans who would’ve thrown a fit if they punted on even a relatively small chance at the playoffs. Plus I’m sure ownership wanted to keep the stadium full for as long as possible. I think we’re also overstating the impact of them not going under. If they were really trying to win with that mediocre team, then make some real upgrades. They didn't. They were just acting like they were trying to compete. They weren't. They wanted to try and upgrade without impacting the future. And honestly Hosmer and Pham were significant improvements over what they had trotted out prior, even if they’re meh I certainly didn’t want them to go all in last year on that team and as stated prior I would’ve preferred to see them sell. You think ownership is punting on a 20% chance at playoff revenue though? No chance
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 20:52:19 GMT -5
Lost me when you stated “ They stopped selling when the team got pissed about Vazquez and pivoted to buying” as if it were fact Radio quality silliness They were never sellers. They sold off a piece that wasn’t in their long term plans and was a meh player (and ended up getting a guy that was better than him for the rest of the year). They were always pretty clear about trying to improve the team at the deadline You have a narrative and won't deviate. I don't even think that was on sports radio. The quotes from the players made them seem broken. Why stop at Vazquez? It's just a weird piece to stop with. They could have gotten something for Eovaldi and JD. It was also never clear that they were buying. Everyone expected them to sell. Selling off a clubhouse leader and a crappy middle reliever is a very crappy plan. They ended up staying over the tax and it cost them big time. My narrative is that the front office actually knew what they wanted to do. Yours is that this front office- which clearly does not care about being unpopular- cared about being unpopular for a split second and did a complete 180 on their plans in one day. Hmmmmm I wonder which is more likely
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 26, 2022 20:56:22 GMT -5
You have a narrative and won't deviate. I don't even think that was on sports radio. The quotes from the players made them seem broken. Why stop at Vazquez? It's just a weird piece to stop with. They could have gotten something for Eovaldi and JD. It was also never clear that they were buying. Everyone expected them to sell. Selling off a clubhouse leader and a crappy middle reliever is a very crappy plan. They ended up staying over the tax and it cost them big time. My narrative is that the front office actually knew what they wanted to do. Yours is that this front office- which clearly does not care about being unpopular- cared about being unpopular and did a complete 180 on their plans in one day. Hmmmmm I wonder which is more likely But did they? I think you're giving them more credit than warranted. I don't think they had any idea how to execute this "plan". If they honestly put any thought or effort into their "plan," they would have gotten under the tax instead of making deals around the margins. And yes, I think the teams reaction to Vazquez being dealt gave Bloom pause. What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 20:59:50 GMT -5
My narrative is that the front office actually knew what they wanted to do. Yours is that this front office- which clearly does not care about being unpopular- cared about being unpopular and did a complete 180 on their plans in one day. Hmmmmm I wonder which is more likely But did they? I think you're giving them more credit than warranted. I don't think they had any idea how to execute this "plan". If they honestly put any thought or effort into their "plan," they would have gotten under the tax instead of making deals around the margins. And yes, I think the teams reaction to Vazquez being dealt gave Bloom pause. What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck. 2 games from the WS a year ago? You see this is the kind of radio quality silliness I was referring to. It’s over the top nonsense.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 26, 2022 21:00:33 GMT -5
But did they? I think you're giving them more credit than warranted. I don't think they had any idea how to execute this "plan". If they honestly put any thought or effort into their "plan," they would have gotten under the tax instead of making deals around the margins. And yes, I think the teams reaction to Vazquez being dealt gave Bloom pause. What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck. 2 games from the WS a year ago? 2 last place finishes in 3 years. That 2021 team also over performed. Don't get me wrong, fun team. But they had no business being there. Everything you disagree with...radio silliness. Yes, Bloom did a fantastic job at the deadline. Ownership is great. All is right with the Sox!
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 21:02:03 GMT -5
2 games from the WS a year ago? 2 last place finishes in 3 years. Listen I’m not the silly person who said “What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck.” WHEN THEY WERE TWO GAMES AWAY FROM THE WS A MERE YEAR AGO 😂😂😂. Apparently that’s absolutely nothing for you. 2020 is a BS year btw- imagine crying over that season and counting it as worth anything? Couldn’t be me.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 26, 2022 21:03:15 GMT -5
2 last place finishes in 3 years. Listen I’m not the silly person who said “What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck.” WHEN THEY WERE TWO GAMES AWAY FROM THE WS A MERE YEAR AGO 😂😂😂 They aren't a trainwreck?! What's the rotation and lineup this year? 200 million dollars bought that.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 21:04:51 GMT -5
Listen I’m not the silly person who said “What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck.” WHEN THEY WERE TWO GAMES AWAY FROM THE WS A MERE YEAR AGO 😂😂😂 They aren't a trainwreck?! What's the rotation and lineup this year? I don’t view it as a train wreck and I don’t view it as complete seeing as it’s December All I’m saying is be reasonable and stop with the silly hyperbole
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 26, 2022 21:08:03 GMT -5
They aren't a trainwreck?! What's the rotation and lineup this year? I don’t view it as a train wreck and I don’t view it as complete seeing as it’s December All I’m saying is be reasonable and stop with the silly hyperbole What do you call it then? The rotation has an ace that can't stay healthy, a number 2 that also can't stay healthy, then a couple of guys that could be okay. Pen is great. Lineup looks putrid. No hyperbole here. It's really a trainwreck situation. They also happened to lose their 2nd best player and have yet to replace him. It's not a big deal, though. Like I said before, in Bloom and ownership we trust.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 21:11:00 GMT -5
I don’t view it as a train wreck and I don’t view it as complete seeing as it’s December All I’m saying is be reasonable and stop with the silly hyperbole What do you call it then? The rotation has an ace that can't stay healthy, a number 2 that also can't stay healthy, then a couple of guys that could be okay. Pen is great. Lineup looks putrid. No hyperbole here. Its really a trainwreck situation. Probably like an 80 win team as currently constituted. Certainly not a train wreck imo I just think it’s BS when you spew the stuff you have- namely that they’ve done nothing since they’ve taken over (when they almost went to the WS) and that they changed their entire deadline plans on a whim because they had their feefee’s hurt about being unpopular (something that’s clearly never bothered them before given some of the tough, unpopular decisions they’ve had to make). That is what I’ve been talking about. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 26, 2022 21:19:47 GMT -5
What do you call it then? The rotation has an ace that can't stay healthy, a number 2 that also can't stay healthy, then a couple of guys that could be okay. Pen is great. Lineup looks putrid. No hyperbole here. Its really a trainwreck situation. Probably like an 80 win team as currently constituted. Certainly not a train wreck imo I just think it’s BS when you spew the stuff you have- namely that they’ve done nothing since they’ve taken over (when they almost went to the WS) and that they changed their entire deadline plans on a whim because they had their feefee’s hurt about being unpopular (something that’s clearly never bothered them before given some of the tough, unpopular decisions they’ve had to make). That is what I’ve been talking about. Nothing more, nothing less. They got insanely lucky in 2021. That doesn't mean we didn't enjoy the ride, but let's at least acknowledge that. Getting Schwarber was a great move but no one expected Bobby Dalbec to be Barry Bonds in the 2nd half either. I give Bloom credit for getting Schwarber though. Did they get unlucky last year? Sure. The front office hasn't done anything really with the major league roster to give them universal trust on every move they make. This offseason has been awful. Last offseason wasn't great until they got Story at a "discount" but even then we all speculated what it meant. I mean we'll see, maybe they have their starters pitch 5 innings and the pen wins a ton of games. You're saying an 80 win team. I don't disagree. Look at 2018-2019 and tell me if you expected this team to crater as bad as they did last year? This is a mediocre team that should be investing in stars and using minor leaguers to fill in the gaps.
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Post by foreverred9 on Dec 26, 2022 22:15:19 GMT -5
2 last place finishes in 3 years. Listen I’m not the silly person who said “What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck.” WHEN THEY WERE TWO GAMES AWAY FROM THE WS A MERE YEAR AGO 😂😂😂. Apparently that’s absolutely nothing for you. Both of these arguments are exaggerated views of the underlying performance of the team. 2021 overperformed in the playoffs, 2022 underperformed. Both of you are looking at only one side of the balance sheet when making your argument. If they hit that bad stretch in the ALDS against Tampa rather than in the ALCS (or night against NYY), we'd be all over that 2021 team for collapsing after July 1st. But also calling them a "last-place team" last year, while factual, dismisses how badly injuries hurt them. To me the true value of the 2021-22 era was a 50th-75th percentile team, one good enough to make the playoffs and compete but not in the upper elite of the league. 2023 feels like it's in the same echelon. My opinion is that's not good enough for FSG to manage the Red Sox, assuming they want to maintain their status as a top-tier franchise (i.e. the make the champions league level equivalent in the Premier league).
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 22:37:30 GMT -5
Listen I’m not the silly person who said “What have you seen in the last 3 years that would let you give this organization anything close to the benefit of the doubt on anything? They're a trainwreck.” WHEN THEY WERE TWO GAMES AWAY FROM THE WS A MERE YEAR AGO 😂😂😂. Apparently that’s absolutely nothing for you. Both of these arguments are exaggerated views of the underlying performance of the team. 2021 overperformed in the playoffs, 2022 underperformed. Both of you are looking at only one side of the balance sheet when making your argument. If they hit that bad stretch in the ALDS against Tampa rather than in the ALCS (or night against NYY), we'd be all over that 2021 team for collapsing after July 1st. But also calling them a "last-place team" last year, while factual, dismisses how badly injuries hurt them. To me the true value of the 2021-22 era was a 50th-75th percentile team, one good enough to make the playoffs and compete but not in the upper elite of the league. 2023 feels like it's in the same echelon. My opinion is that's not good enough for FSG to manage the Red Sox, assuming they want to maintain their status as a top-tier franchise (i.e. the make the champions league level equivalent in the Premier league). I’m just saying that they haven’t been an abomination for 3 years like he wanted to claim, nothing more and nothing less. They’ve done some good.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 26, 2022 22:52:41 GMT -5
The trades they made at the 2022 deadline certainly made the team incrementally better at positions of need but even if you liked their chances, it was hardly a "we're going for it!" deadline. The Achilles heel of the team (more like the torn Achilles tendon) was the bullpen and they did nothing for the bullpen at the deadline (unless you count the inning that McGuire pitched in Toronto -- 3.11 FIP!).
News flash! Relief pitchers are unreasonably expensive at the deadline! But if you're really going for it, shouldn't you address the team's most obvious need? If you're not willing to pay that price, then you should really reconsider going for it.
And if they were counting on all or even most of their injured pitchers coming back to make important contributions (what's the big-league corollary to TNSTAAPP?) or counting on the team's success in 2021 to carry over to the last two months of 2022 (when they had only one winning month out of four in the interim), I question the logic in that.
The bottom line is they were a .500 team that made some moves around the edges, held onto a bunch of expiring contracts, and wound up 50 cents over the CBT. Not a great deadline.
If they had done all of those things except for the last one, then fine, you tried a finesse play and it was a long shot anyway. But blowing the CBT reset under those circumstances was inexcusable.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 26, 2022 22:59:48 GMT -5
If they were really trying to win with that mediocre team, then make some real upgrades. They didn't. They were just acting like they were trying to compete. They weren't. They wanted to try and upgrade without impacting the future. And honestly Hosmer and Pham were significant improvements over what they had trotted out prior, even if they’re meh I certainly didn’t want them to go all in last year on that team and as stated prior I would’ve preferred to see them sell. You think ownership is punting on a 20% chance at playoff revenue though? No chance But that’s the point. Pham and hosmer were huge upgrades. Every weakness we had last year was a glaring weakness to the par average or fans before the 1st game started in 2022
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 26, 2022 23:00:54 GMT -5
If you're still mad about them staying over the luxury tax, I think you are seriously overestimating the impact of their one comp pick being pushed back from #80 to #140. The only other effect is that John Henry spent some extra cash. Last year, the pool money associated with that drop would've been more than $400k.
In practical terms, that's a little less than how much they used to entice young Brooks Brannon to skip college.
It's hardly rounding error...
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 26, 2022 23:05:40 GMT -5
If you're still mad about them staying over the luxury tax, I think you are seriously overestimating the impact of their one comp pick being pushed back from #80 to #140. The only other effect is that John Henry spent some extra cash. No it never smart to be stupid. They not only didn’t get potential assets via trade but also worsened their comp picks. In a season where we had absolutely no shot. That is never a good thing.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 26, 2022 23:10:41 GMT -5
If you're still mad about them staying over the luxury tax, I think you are seriously overestimating the impact of their one comp pick being pushed back from #80 to #140. The only other effect is that John Henry spent some extra cash. Last year, the pool money associated with that drop would've been more than $400k.
In practical terms, that's a little less than how much they used to entice young Brooks Brannon to skip college.
It's hardly rounding error...
So less than what netted the 28th ranked prospect in the system? It’s not nothing but it’s hardly anything to get in a tizzy about. Seems like they’ll reset this year anyway
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