SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
4/10-4/13 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
|
Post by dirtdog on Apr 11, 2023 20:15:48 GMT -5
This thread is one page away from talking about Bagwell for Andersen and the sale of RuthThis and Tony C worst days in Red Sox history.
|
|
|
Post by wOBA Fett on Apr 11, 2023 20:16:28 GMT -5
I'd rather have Whitlock pitching 6 innings over 6 days in high leverage situations than once every 5. Gives you a chance to win 2+ games when he pitches instead of 1 best case every 5. He was elite at that role too. Yes very good as a reliever. If he can be that good as a starter we have an ace. An elite starter is worth more than an elite reliever. I don't know that he can be elite or good but I am willing to give him a chance to fail. What I saw last year didn't inspire confidence but he pitched hurt so you have to take that into account. His injury history as a starter is also part of my concern.
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Apr 11, 2023 20:16:54 GMT -5
Just perfect. The Kiké 0fer continues. How long can they endure this?
|
|
|
Post by taiwansox on Apr 11, 2023 20:16:56 GMT -5
Why Kiké leadoff when heâs ice cold?
|
|
|
Post by orion09 on Apr 11, 2023 20:19:29 GMT -5
Biggest question of the night is if Whitlock is a starter or not. I’ve been pretty vocal about having him as a reliever mainly because I didn’t believe in his slider, but the biggest issue is how much his fastball plays down as a starter. I’ve always liked Houck more as a starter even with his 3rd time through the order issues. For Houck, I’d use a lefty opener and have him come in after. Houck with a more consistent splitter will be lethal. Whitlock is a 1.5 WAR reliever but really better than that since he’ll replace our worst relievers who are below replacement. Do we reasonably think he’ll be a 2 WAR starter when he hasn’t done it for an extended stretch above Double-A? Soxfansince67 is right in that you have to give Whitlock more of a chance to see what he can do, but my gut feeling agrees with you. Whitlock’s stuff has consistently played down as a starter, while Houck has largely had the same stuff either way. If Houck can develop the cutter and splitter I think he can stick as a starter. Whitlock could stick as a starter too, but once he’s fully healthy and built-up, I think you need his stuff to look sharper than it has - otherwise he’s better off pitching 6 innings a week in relief, where we know the velocity plays up and the changeup has more depth.
|
|
briam
Veteran
Posts: 1,180
|
Post by briam on Apr 11, 2023 20:19:36 GMT -5
The more errors than hits stat for Kiké holding steady.
|
|
|
Post by terriblehondo on Apr 11, 2023 20:20:38 GMT -5
Yes very good as a reliever. If he can be that good as a starter we have an ace. An elite starter is worth more than an elite reliever. I don't know that he can be elite or good but I am willing to give him a chance to fail. What I saw last year didn't inspire confidence but he pitched hurt so you have to take that into account. His injury history as a starter is also part of my concern. Probably a very legitimate concern.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 11, 2023 20:22:11 GMT -5
Portland squad looking good. For a prospect site we have 4 minor league games going on right now and we didnt even hit page 2 of that thread yet our MLB team thats getting smoked is getting all the posts. Weird. i wouldn't read to much of that. that is kind of how the site operates. Everyone checks in on the kids. The game thread gets the most posts and when things go badly, it becomes a smorgasbord of what went / is wrong. It can get kind of interesting to be honest. LOL. Can't make to much out of an individual game or series during the year. Long way to go.
|
|
|
Post by rico6 on Apr 11, 2023 20:22:19 GMT -5
"It's going to be awesome" ~Chaim Bloom Maybe he momentarily forgot which team he was working for. Or, maybe he was thinking about the trade deadline and a top 10 pick in next years draft.
|
|
|
Post by orion09 on Apr 11, 2023 20:23:42 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by taiwansox on Apr 11, 2023 20:24:34 GMT -5
Yes very good as a reliever. If he can be that good as a starter we have an ace. An elite starter is worth more than an elite reliever. I don't know that he can be elite or good but I am willing to give him a chance to fail. What I saw last year didn't inspire confidence but he pitched hurt so you have to take that into account. His injury history as a starter is also part of my concern. Yeah thereâs really nothing in his track record to indicate elite starter. We should wait to judge him as a starter, but there are other starting options at the moment. If anything either you have him as a reliever and sign Kluber or you donât sign Kluber and ride him as a starterâ¦Chaim has been very indecisive and goes for overly broad strategies such as getting pitchers with low BB rates but then fails to get a plus defense behind our high contact pitchers. I do believe our farm is much much better than it was but you canât stand around when your starting middle infield is Kiké/Arroyo. With our pitching depth, that Kluber money should have gone to a middle infielder
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Apr 11, 2023 20:26:27 GMT -5
Here's the thing. Let's say Whitlock pitched a fine game and game up two runs. Like Pivetta's nice game last night. Where are the runs going to come from? Paxton is going to come back, Bello is going to come back - but we just lost Duvall and there is no cavalry coming from the WooSox. There is lots of concern about the pitching - but even before we played a game this year, it was the bats that had me worried. It’s funny… they were just saying how this shows they miss Duvall and I was thinking… would he drive in 6 runs? 7-1 means everyone was bad. So far Dalbec has improved on what Duvall gave them, so safe to say that hasn't been the issue.
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 11, 2023 20:26:30 GMT -5
It was so damn foolish. And so they weren't even close to keeping this asset so what did they convert this asset into? Why a pick after the 4th round. Fantastic. He had a full no-trade clause, so they may not have had much of a choice even if they did want to punt, which they didn't. Then at least make Xander make that decision. I doubt he would have declined if the team was squandering and had no intention to sign him.
|
|
|
Post by notstarboard on Apr 11, 2023 20:29:48 GMT -5
He had a full no-trade clause, so they may not have had much of a choice even if they did want to punt, which they didn't. Then at least make Xander make that decision. I doubt he would have declined if the team was squandering and had no intention to sign him. I agree - I was very much on team fire sale last year.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 11, 2023 20:32:26 GMT -5
The X stuff about the contract is neither here nor there, IMO. My personal feeling is that Bloom never saw him as the long term solution. Let's be honest, X isn't the darling of the analytic crowd, and that may be justified to some extent. What he brings are intangibles and a steadiness that isn't easily quantifiable.
I also always felt he was bit victimized by getting to the majors at such a young age and having unreasonable expectations put on him, myself included.
I think the FO would have had him for a certain price, that they probably realized prior, wasn't going to happen Hence the pivot to Story, whom i believe was the choice all along.
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Apr 11, 2023 21:03:49 GMT -5
Take Duvall's stats out of the data - the Sox are hitting .222 with 11 HR and 43 RBI
Refsnyder, Wong, Casas, Kiké, Arroyo, Yoshida and Turner are a combined 36 for 221 - .163-5-27
not the start any Sox fan hoped for.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 11, 2023 21:04:02 GMT -5
The X stuff about the contract is neither here nor there, IMO. My personal feeling is that Bloom never saw him as the long term solution. Let's be honest, X isn't the darling of the analytic crowd, and that may be justified to some extent. What he brings are intangibles and a steadiness that isn't easily quantifiable. I also always felt he was bit victimized by getting to the majors at such a young age and having unreasonable expectations put on him, myself included. I think the FO would have had him for a certain price, that they probably realized prior, wasn't going to happen Hence the pivot to Story, whom i believe was the choice all along. Xander had/has a good hit tool. I think the game has turned too far into the three true outcomes thing that guys who can truly hit gave become undervalued. The Sox lack guys with good hit tools. Devers has one, although I think Xander is a better hitter, although certainly not the offensive player Raffy is. Turner can hit, Verdugo has a good hit tool and the hope is Yoshida does too, although the jury is still out on that. Nobody really has anything resembling an outstanding or elite hit tool. I'd say X is bordering on an outstanding hit tool. With the Sox, you can safely pencil him in for .300. You really can't do that with anybody else in this lineup, so then you need great plate discipline, excellent power or speed to make up for the lack of outstanding hit tools and they just dont have that. Just a lot of otdinary/average/mediocre players.
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan on Apr 11, 2023 21:34:30 GMT -5
but Bloom came from the org. so they likely aren't doing anything he doesn't know, i would guess. I am really suspect of our player development machine. Beni was the last homegrown prospect to pan out, and its not like the Rays and Dodgers haven’t been successful and had their draft spot impacted by that, but both clubs are leaps and bounds better at developing guys, both pitchers and position players. I think this group lives too much in the past successes on development, and it shows. You have to go back like 3 regimes to find a successful starter we developed (Clay, Lester). I think player development needs a major shakeup. This is the real problem. Between 2000 and 2007, the Red Sox averaged almost 40 bWAR a year from the draft. Between 2008 and 2015, it fell to less than half that total. Even with Betts, Benintendi and Kopech still having a chance to rack up WAR, we’re still probably looking at about a 15 bWAR per year drop. It’s too early to draw conclusions about the Dombrowski era (and way, way, way too early to judge the Bloom era), but the early returns are not good. The Rays, Orioles and Blue Jays have all opened substantial gaps in young, cost-controlled talent over the Red Sox — and much of that gap is the result of what happened between 2016 and 2019. Even with a best case result from Casas, Rafaela, Bello, etc., there is still likely to be a significant gap. (I would add that the drop-off in the draft has been mitigated to some extent by improved performance in the international market — and this is why there is still some hope that the Red Sox might yet close the gap). However, if there is some hope for the Red Sox, it is in the 11-0 Rays. The core of that team was either acquired by Chaim Bloom (Franco, McClanahan, Diaz, B. Lowe, J. Lowe), acquired in exchange for players acquired by Bloom (Paredes, Arozarena) or specifically targeted while Bloom was GM (Rasmussen). Barring a collapse, this year will be the Rays’ sixth straight 90 win season and fifth straight trip to the playoffs, and like it or not, Chaim Bloom is still the primary architect of that team.
|
|
|
Post by yuchangclan on Apr 11, 2023 21:39:12 GMT -5
This thread is one page away from talking about Bagwell for Andersen and the sale of Ruth Hey, nobody has mentioned that Conner Wong was one of the pieces coming back in the Mookie trade in a while….
|
|
|
Post by pappyman99 on Apr 11, 2023 21:42:40 GMT -5
I just wonder if bloom is surprised. Again why move Whitlock from his dominant relief role when he was only okay at starting last year and it got him injured?
The offense, I’m not going to complain about it, I did all that earlier before the season started
|
|
|
Post by yuchangclan on Apr 11, 2023 21:43:11 GMT -5
I am still pissed about the Bagwell deal. Me too! We would have seen significant improvement to a mostly dreadful 90’s decade for the Sox. Bagwell & Mo would have made a great duo for a number of years. Valentin was a pretty good player too. Add Nomar to that team in the mid 90’s and you would have really had something. Friggin’ Larry Anderson!
|
|
|
Post by bosoxnation on Apr 11, 2023 21:43:28 GMT -5
Portland squad looking good. For a prospect site we have 4 minor league games going on right now and we didnt even hit page 2 of that thread yet our MLB team thats getting smoked is getting all the posts. Weird. i wouldn't read to much of that. that is kind of how the site operates. Everyone checks in on the kids. The game thread gets the most posts and when things go badly, it becomes a smorgasbord of what went / is wrong. It can get kind of interesting to be honest. LOL. Can't make to much out of an individual game or series during the year. Long way to go. We all can agree this is a bridge year. We have the best system we’ve had in years so why not shift some of the focus on the kids?
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Apr 11, 2023 21:46:09 GMT -5
i wouldn't read to much of that. that is kind of how the site operates. Everyone checks in on the kids. The game thread gets the most posts and when things go badly, it becomes a smorgasbord of what went / is wrong. It can get kind of interesting to be honest. LOL. Can't make to much out of an individual game or series during the year. Long way to go. We all can agree this is a bridge year. We have the best system we’ve had in years so why not shift some of the focus on the kids? Oh god… bridge year. Drink!
|
|
|
Post by grandsalami on Apr 11, 2023 22:06:39 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Apr 11, 2023 22:25:53 GMT -5
I am really suspect of our player development machine. Beni was the last homegrown prospect to pan out, and its not like the Rays and Dodgers haven’t been successful and had their draft spot impacted by that, but both clubs are leaps and bounds better at developing guys, both pitchers and position players. I think this group lives too much in the past successes on development, and it shows. You have to go back like 3 regimes to find a successful starter we developed (Clay, Lester). I think player development needs a major shakeup. This is the real problem. Between 2000 and 2007, the Red Sox averaged almost 40 bWAR a year from the draft. Between 2008 and 2015, it fell to less than half that total. Even with Betts, Benintendi and Kopech still having a chance to rack up WAR, we’re still probably looking at about a 15 bWAR per year drop. It’s too early to draw conclusions about the Dombrowski era (and way, way, way too early to judge the Bloom era), but the early returns are not good. The Rays, Orioles and Blue Jays have all opened substantial gaps in young, cost-controlled talent over the Red Sox — and much of that gap is the result of what happened between 2016 and 2019. Even with a best case result from Casas, Rafaela, Bello, etc., there is still likely to be a significant gap. (I would add that the drop-off in the draft has been mitigated to some extent by improved performance in the international market — and this is why there is still some hope that the Red Sox might yet close the gap). However, if there is some hope for the Red Sox, it is in the 11-0 Rays. The core of that team was either acquired by Chaim Bloom (Franco, McClanahan, Diaz, B. Lowe, J. Lowe), acquired in exchange for players acquired by Bloom (Paredes, Arozarena) or specifically targeted while Bloom was GM (Rasmussen). Barring a collapse, this year will be the Rays’ sixth straight 90 win season and fifth straight trip to the playoffs, and like it or not, Chaim Bloom is still the primary architect of that team. Umm nope Bloom was not the GM of the Rays or architect of that team.
|
|
|