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4/10-4/13 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
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Post by ortiz on Apr 13, 2023 7:32:29 GMT -5
The sale contract is absolutely a killer, they’d be in much better shape with 2 solid $15 mill talents I don’t find this team unlikable- they actually have shown some heart. They don’t really give up and go away. They have just had some really bad luck already (with injuries and bounces) and can’t field. Couple that with some dumb coaching (bullpen, lineups, lack of preparation for new rules relative to other teams) and we are gonna get beat by good teams. I actually think the team has talent. Not elite upside, but there is no way they shouldn’t win 85 games. If they don’t talent should not be the excuse Except they’d spend it on four 7.5 million talents trying to catch lightning in a bottle with retreads
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 13, 2023 7:58:19 GMT -5
The sale contract is absolutely a killer, they’d be in much better shape with 2 solid $15 mill talents I don’t find this team unlikable- they actually have shown some heart. They don’t really give up and go away. They have just had some really bad luck already (with injuries and bounces) and can’t field. Couple that with some dumb coaching (bullpen, lineups, lack of preparation for new rules relative to other teams) and we are gonna get beat by good teams. I actually think the team has talent. Not elite upside, but there is no way they shouldn’t win 85 games. If they don’t talent should not be the excuse This team is $14m under the cap, so no Sale's $27m AAV is not killing them. If they were at the cap or $20m over then maybe you could make this argument but even then it's hard to argue based solely on the expense. Some people didn't like this deal at the time and it hasn't worked out, but IMO this is a very defensible contract. 5/$145m for his age 31-35 seasons. A wasted 2020 and an arm injury derailed him so it looks bad, but the premise was solid. Besides, look what other pitchers are getting right now. DeGrom - 5/$185m ($37m AAV) for his age 35-39 seasons Verlander - 2/$86.66m ($43m AAV) for his age 40-41 seasons 2019 was a down year for Sale after being worked too much in 2018, but prior to that Sale was coming off of six straight top-5 Cy Young seasons. If you don't spend money on this guy then who do you spend it on? The ghost of Corey Kluber? Hey at least we got a good deal, right? I hated the contract at the time because it ignores the context of his history. He was wearing down late in seasons and was having shoulder problems. I remember him being a future TJ candidate as well and that he was a matter of when, not if. I agree that his contract isn't hamstringing the team that much, but I bet you Mookie or Xander are still here without Sale's 27.5 million.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 13, 2023 8:07:44 GMT -5
Hoping Kelly is okay obviously but if he goes to the 60 day do they add a AAA reliever to the 40 or put Crawford in the bullpen? If they do add a guy who is top of that list right now? It’s probably only a few days regardless with Bello back soon.
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 13, 2023 8:15:05 GMT -5
Hoping Kelly is okay obviously but if he goes to the 60 day do they add a AAA reliever to the 40 or put Crawford in the bullpen? If they do add a guy who is top of that list right now? It’s probably only a few days regardless with Bello back soon. Ryan Sherriff was supposedly the last cut in the pen so he would make sense. He's also not a guy you mind DFA'ing later if it comes to that
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 8:18:48 GMT -5
This team is $14m under the cap, so no Sale's $27m AAV is not killing them. If they were at the cap or $20m over then maybe you could make this argument but even then it's hard to argue based solely on the expense. Some people didn't like this deal at the time and it hasn't worked out, but IMO this is a very defensible contract. 5/$145m for his age 31-35 seasons. A wasted 2020 and an arm injury derailed him so it looks bad, but the premise was solid. Besides, look what other pitchers are getting right now. DeGrom - 5/$185m ($37m AAV) for his age 35-39 seasons Verlander - 2/$86.66m ($43m AAV) for his age 40-41 seasons 2019 was a down year for Sale after being worked too much in 2018, but prior to that Sale was coming off of six straight top-5 Cy Young seasons. If you don't spend money on this guy then who do you spend it on? The ghost of Corey Kluber? Hey at least we got a good deal, right? I hated the contract at the time because it ignores the context of his history. He was wearing down late in seasons and was having shoulder problems. I remember him being a future TJ candidate as well and that he was a matter of when, not if. I agree that his contract isn't hamstringing the team that much, but I bet you Mookie or Xander are still here without Sale's 27.5 million. I was excited coming off a World Series win extending him and Bogey at basically the same time - but what I still don't understand is why they didn't just wait until the end of the year before they gave him the bag. At the time there was no real hurry - if he stayed healthy and reverted back to 2018 Chris Sale, you could either outbid for him when he went to free agency or you go get Gerrit Cole/Zach Wheeler/a then-healthy Stephen Strasburg as a consolation prize. They took that approach with Eovaldi last year, and after he had injury issues it looks like they just decided to move on. But back to the Rays series... it's weird, but if (when?) we get swept today, I'm not sure how to even how much to take that insofar as judging the team. Tampa is unreal right now. Two weeks in and you could still convince me we win 87 games or lose 87 games.
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Post by pappyman99 on Apr 13, 2023 8:33:30 GMT -5
Sales contract will luckily be done with 18 months from now. That is even more reason not to approach the luxury tax limit this season.
Maybe you go over it next season if we are competitive knowing his $25 million will be coming off.
To be more concise, we shouldn’t let Sale’s contract dictate anything this next upcoming off-season
At this point the whole rotation seems absolutely shaky, and I understand the appeal of it, but have always advocated for Whitlock in the pen where he is dominant
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Apr 13, 2023 8:49:00 GMT -5
The whole Chris Sale situation is so, so unfortunate. Its amazing what a shortsighted GM can do to an organization. Win now, sure, but pay the price many, many years later. Sale's contract at this point should not be hindering this team from making any upgrades. Yes the contract is terrible but its not like this team has a 300 million dollar payroll either. They have the ability to spend more if they want to. Sale is a problem for sure but hes also not the only reason why this team is getting blown out during this series.
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cdj
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Posts: 15,659
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Post by cdj on Apr 13, 2023 8:57:06 GMT -5
Are we sneaky tanking?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Apr 13, 2023 8:57:50 GMT -5
I hated the contract at the time because it ignores the context of his history. He was wearing down late in seasons and was having shoulder problems. I remember him being a future TJ candidate as well and that he was a matter of when, not if. I agree that his contract isn't hamstringing the team that much, but I bet you Mookie or Xander are still here without Sale's 27.5 million. A lot of people hated the contract for that specific reason, so I get it. My argument was he faded out every year of his career which is why it didn't matter and why we were getting him for less than if he didn't have that track record. Turns out he got injured. Sh*t happens, still think it was worth a shot. In context of other contracts, DeGrom has pitched about 220 innings over the last 3 years (!) including just 64 last year and still go his contract. So, I still think Sale was a pretty good option in terms of risk/reward relative to what some other teams are doing. As far as Sale hamstringing the team with Mookie and Xander, I think a team with a $200m payroll could fit ~$30m into their budget if they really wanted to. Xander in particular I disagree with. Sale only has one more guaranteed year after 2023 so there's no long-term finance issue. Also, Xander could roughly be covered with the $14m in cap space and not signing any one of Kluber, Jansen, Yoshida, Kiké, or Turner, so calling BS on that one. I think they still part with Mookie and Xander regardless of Sale. Just wasn't in their plans though. I would like to see this team in the top 5 in payroll again. But some of these minor leaguers really need to make an impact at some point in the next couple years. The only good thing about this franchise in the last 2 years is that the Pirates ended up with the first pick and they cheaped out on Mayer.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Apr 13, 2023 8:58:30 GMT -5
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 13, 2023 9:15:26 GMT -5
It just highlights how much this lineup sucks right now without Devers. That's 6/7 of the 9 players this team starts on purpose on a good day. I mean it's missing possibly its 3 best hitters, not just Devers. At least 3 out of the top 5. Maybe 4 of 5 if you count Story. It highlights to me how much of the teams issues are still due to the fact that they haven't developed a minor league player in ages. If Dalbec and Casas were hitting well, heck if even one of them was, that lineup doesn't look so bad.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Apr 13, 2023 9:28:25 GMT -5
Kelly to the IL, Crawford back.
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 13, 2023 9:31:33 GMT -5
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Post by yuchangclan on Apr 13, 2023 9:31:52 GMT -5
W-where’s Devers? This wouldn’t even be a good AAA lineup. Wow.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 13, 2023 9:35:02 GMT -5
A lot of people hated the contract for that specific reason, so I get it. My argument was he faded out every year of his career which is why it didn't matter and why we were getting him for less than if he didn't have that track record. Turns out he got injured. Sh*t happens, still think it was worth a shot. In context of other contracts, DeGrom has pitched about 220 innings over the last 3 years (!) including just 64 last year and still go his contract. So, I still think Sale was a pretty good option in terms of risk/reward relative to what some other teams are doing. As far as Sale hamstringing the team with Mookie and Xander, I think a team with a $200m payroll could fit ~$30m into their budget if they really wanted to. Xander in particular I disagree with. Sale only has one more guaranteed year after 2023 so there's no long-term finance issue. Also, Xander could roughly be covered with the $14m in cap space and not signing any one of Kluber, Jansen, Yoshida, Kiké, or Turner, so calling BS on that one. I think they still part with Mookie and Xander regardless of Sale. Just wasn't in their plans though. I would like to see this team in the top 5 in payroll again. But some of these minor leaguers really need to make an impact at some point in the next couple years. The only good thing about this franchise in the last 2 years is that the Pirates ended up with the first pick and they cheaped out on Mayer. For Xander, I would think they'd have extended him early again, but fair point. My larger point is if not those 2 then it would have been another big contract free agent. They weren't just going to have a 27.5 million hole in their payroll especially when they have room already under the cap.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 13, 2023 9:35:34 GMT -5
The question of whether the Sale contract is what's dragging the team down is both a strawman and a red herring. Obviously it hurts when you allocate $145 million to someone who doesn't add any value at all. But it's not like that's enough to sink an organization; the 2018 Red Sox overcame the Hanley, Sandoval, and Pedroia contracts.
It is, as many people have pointed out, the cratering of the farm system ca. 2019 that is dragging them down. That pig is now starting to pass out of the snake, finally, with Casas and some of the young pitching - but they haven't actually gotten anything out of Casas or Bello so far this year. But I think they will. And for the record I think Sale will improve too.
It's a long season. Last year they started 10-19. By June they looked like a surefire playoff team. By August they looked like a dumpster fire. Just gotta give it a minute...
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Post by bosoxnation on Apr 13, 2023 9:40:57 GMT -5
As soon as Cora put todays lineup card out we should of fired him
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Post by dcsoxfan on Apr 13, 2023 9:40:58 GMT -5
It is possible that this team is what it was last year: a decent team trapped in an absolutely brutal division. Never before before have the Yankees, Rays, Jays and O’s been this good at the same time. The 2022 Red Sox played 106 against teams with winning records.
And Chris Sale’s contract is not THE problem. The problem is the lack of low-cost high impact talent. The average cost of a unit of WAR is now over $9 million, and you need around 35-40 WAR to compete for a wild card or 50 WAR to compete for a division title. You might be able to put together a good team for a year or two without young stars, but you can’t do it year in and year out. You need a constant flow of young impact players if you want to compete consistently. At a time when at least three AL East teams are awash in low cost talent, the Red Sox have only a single cost-controlled impact player, Devers, and he’s in his last year of cost control.
This team isn’t going to be competitive in the AL East until it develops some young impact talent.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Apr 13, 2023 9:43:11 GMT -5
The question of whether the Sale contract is what's dragging the team down is both a strawman and a red herring. Obviously it hurts when you allocate $145 million to someone who doesn't add any value at all. But it's not like that's enough to sink an organization; the 2018 Red Sox overcame the Hanley, Sandoval, and Pedroia contracts.
It is, as many people have pointed out, the cratering of the farm system ca. 2019 that is dragging them down. That pig is now starting to pass out of the snake, finally, with Casas and some of the young pitching - but they haven't actually gotten anything out of Casas or Bello so far this year. But I think they will. And for the record I think Sale will improve too.
It's a long season. Last year they started 10-19. By June they looked like a surefire playoff team. By August they looked like a dumpster fire. Just gotta give it a minute...
All of those guys were far easier to replace. They overcame Sandoval by bringing up Devers, Hanley was replaced by Moreland/JD, Pedroia honestly wasn't really replaced by Nunez/Holt... But trying to replace a $25m ace is damn near impossible without spending just as much in FA, or having a top 5 league wide prospect ready to slide in.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 13, 2023 9:43:16 GMT -5
Four days in a row on turf, Pete Abe? Seriously? He spends 99% of his time on the dirt no matter what the rest of the field is made of. Just call it an off day lol
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Post by pappyman99 on Apr 13, 2023 9:44:26 GMT -5
As soon as Cora put todays lineup card out we should of fired him I know this is hyberbole, but what can Cora really do other than yell at bloom asking what the F did he do all off-season?
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Post by bosoxnation on Apr 13, 2023 9:44:53 GMT -5
This has to be the worst lineup in the 2023 MLB season across the board. Time to pound the under
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Apr 13, 2023 9:45:27 GMT -5
Four days in a row on turf, Pete Abe? Seriously? He spends 99% of his time on the dirt no matter what the rest of the field is made of. Just call it an off day lol I wouldn't rule out that HBO on his hand in Detroit playing a factor
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Post by incandenza on Apr 13, 2023 9:48:57 GMT -5
The question of whether the Sale contract is what's dragging the team down is both a strawman and a red herring. Obviously it hurts when you allocate $145 million to someone who doesn't add any value at all. But it's not like that's enough to sink an organization; the 2018 Red Sox overcame the Hanley, Sandoval, and Pedroia contracts.
It is, as many people have pointed out, the cratering of the farm system ca. 2019 that is dragging them down. That pig is now starting to pass out of the snake, finally, with Casas and some of the young pitching - but they haven't actually gotten anything out of Casas or Bello so far this year. But I think they will. And for the record I think Sale will improve too.
It's a long season. Last year they started 10-19. By June they looked like a surefire playoff team. By August they looked like a dumpster fire. Just gotta give it a minute...
All of those guys were far easier to replace. They overcame Sandoval by bringing up Devers, Hanley was replaced by Moreland/JD, Pedroia honestly wasn't really replaced by Nunez/Holt... But trying to replace a $25m ace is damn near impossible without spending just as much in FA, or having a top 5 league wide prospect ready to slide in. The way they "replaced" those guys was by Mookie having a 10 WAR season (and Bogaerts a 5 WAR season, and Benintendi a 4 WAR season, etc.). The crazy thing about that team was that they had some serious holes. Even Devers wasn't good yet and 3B was a weakness. But that's the thing - they had a bounty of young cost-controlled talent the likes of which we may never see again and ended up winning 108 games. If they had that right now they'd be in a great place this year, too, regardless of Sale's performance.
Heck, they had a nice 2021 season even without getting hardly anything out of Sale.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Apr 13, 2023 9:49:58 GMT -5
Season just started and I already find this team unlikable. I don't find this team easy to dislike. I have my qualms with the guys who cost us games last year by not getting vaxed* and Brasier has definitely showed signs of being a dope. But that's about it. But that doesn't mean I find the team easy to like. How many guys on this team do you feel like you know (not personally) and actually like? For me, there's Raffy and to a lesser extent KKH, Dugo and maybe Whitlock. Bello and Casas could establish themselves as good Red Sox, so they're interesting to watch. The mediocrity, lack of familiarity, and my loss of faith in management after a series of clown-show missteps leave me indifferent. My interest level is way down to the point where the Red Sox are more irrelevant to me than they are likeable or dislikeable. *Before anyone gets excited and starts furiously banging on the keyboard, I am commenting on these players affecting W-L by refusing to make themselves available, not on the efficacy of the vax. I hated Pablo Sandoval's lack of commitment. I have nothing against buffets and great desserts. It's a fair analogy.
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