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Bruins '23 Offseason Thread
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Post by texs31 on May 1, 2023 11:01:46 GMT -5
I'm too upset to spend 1 more second in the season thread so . . .
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 1, 2023 11:27:52 GMT -5
thank you for this
Just totally heartbreaking to see Bergeron and Krejci go out like that. Krejci emptied the tank last night after being awful most of the series, you can tell he wanted it
This core has brought us a lot of pain. Ready to move on from it. Great era nonetheless.
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Post by homerdante on May 1, 2023 15:46:56 GMT -5
I agree with your idea from the other thread, CDJ. I think it's blow it up time. At least blow up this core, and soft rebuild around Pasta, McAvoy, Swayman, Carlo, Zacha, etc.
Krecji and Bergie retire.
Get major haul for Ullmark.
Try to find someone who wants veteran leadership who will take the twilight of Marchand's career.
Look for trade partners for Lindholm--he's somewhat young, might be a market for him if you eat a little bit of his salary (his contract wasn't horrible but also wasn't great).
Look for a partner for Hall, but that will be tough with him getting some no-trade protections as I recall.
Look for a partner for Coyle. Maybe someone wants a vastly overpaid third line center, I don't know, you might have to buy him out. He's got 3 years left we're stuck with.
Blessedly Foligno is gone. One of the worst contracts since Backes.
DeBrusk is only 26, but he feels like he's got a fragile mindset. I don't know which way you go with him.
Bertuzzi melted in the playoffs, I'm moving on from him unless there's some argument that he grows up, he's only 28. I think he probably wants too much money.
Frederic is RFA, depends on how much he wants. He's probably a third line guy, so I wouldn't go very high on him, and definitely not long term.
Lauko and Greer give you ok performance for their respective lines based on their salaries. Lauko is RFA, if it stays a low number, you probably bring him back.
You're probably stuck with Forbort at an absurd number, and Grzelcyk too, less absurd relative to performance for Grz.
Clifton is likely gone unless his number stays low, but honestly I don't want him.
That leaves you with a group of Pasta, DeBrusk, Zacha, Frederic?, Lauko, Greer up front for next year. McAvoy, Grz, Carlo, Forbort, Zboril on D so far.
Pasta 11,250,000
McAvoy 9,500,000
Carlo 4,100,000
DeBrusk 4,000,000
Zacha 3,500,000
Grz 3,687,500
Forbort 3,000,000
Frederic?
Zboril 1,137,500
Lauko 764,167
Swayman Big raise, was 925,000 this year.
4.5 overage from Bergie and Krecji bonuses from 22-23
That's ~46,687,500 (NOT including raise for Frederic and raise for Swayman.
~$85,090,323 is projected cap for next year, which is an increase of a million.
I doubt all of those movements could occur, but that would give you a good deal of space to rebuild and bring up your 3 viable prospects and see what they have. Lysell seems like he needs a second line spot at least.
I bet that's just to much to hope for in a year, but it's certainly pointing in the direction I think they need to head.
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cdj
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Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on May 1, 2023 16:57:45 GMT -5
I agree with your idea from the other thread, CDJ. I think it's blow it up time. At least blow up this core, and soft rebuild around Pasta, McAvoy, Swayman, Carlo, Zacha, etc. Krecji and Bergie retire. Get major haul for Ullmark. Try to find someone who wants veteran leadership who will take the twilight of Marchand's career. Look for trade partners for Lindholm--he's somewhat young, might be a market for him if you eat a little bit of his salary (his contract wasn't horrible but also wasn't great). Look for a partner for Hall, but that will be tough with him getting some no-trade protections as I recall. Look for a partner for Coyle. Maybe someone wants a vastly overpaid third line center, I don't know, you might have to buy him out. He's got 3 years left we're stuck with. Blessedly Foligno is gone. One of the worst contracts since Backes. DeBrusk is only 26, but he feels like he's got a fragile mindset. I don't know which way you go with him. Bertuzzi melted in the playoffs, I'm moving on from him unless there's some argument that he grows up, he's only 28. I think he probably wants too much money. Frederic is RFA, depends on how much he wants. He's probably a third line guy, so I wouldn't go very high on him, and definitely not long term. Lauko and Greer give you ok performance for their respective lines based on their salaries. Lauko is RFA, if it stays a low number, you probably bring him back. You're probably stuck with Forbort at an absurd number, and Grzelcyk too, less absurd relative to performance for Grz. Clifton is likely gone unless his number stays low, but honestly I don't want him. That leaves you with a group of Pasta, DeBrusk, Zacha, Frederic?, Lauko, Greer up front for next year. McAvoy, Grz, Carlo, Forbort, Zboril on D so far. Pasta 11,250,000 McAvoy 9,500,000 Carlo 4,100,000 DeBrusk 4,000,000 Zacha 3,500,000 Grz 3,687,500 Forbort 3,000,000 Frederic? Zboril 1,137,500 Lauko 764,167 Swayman Big raise, was 925,000 this year. 4.5 overage from Bergie and Krecji bonuses from 22-23 That's ~46,687,500 (NOT including raise for Frederic and raise for Swayman. ~$85,090,323 is projected cap for next year, which is an increase of a million. I doubt all of those movements could occur, but that would give you a good deal of space to rebuild and bring up your 3 viable prospects and see what they have. Lysell seems like he needs a second line spot at least. I bet that's just to much to hope for in a year, but it's certainly pointing in the direction I think they need to head. Lindholm would have a massive market, an inconsistent 7 games series won’t change that |
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Post by homerdante on May 1, 2023 17:31:50 GMT -5
His last month of the regular season was off too. It's difficult to peg exactly when he went into his end of season decline, but it clearly extended into the playoffs.
Take a look at last season's playoffs too against Carolina. Zero points last year too, zero points this year. He fades. It's what he does. 2 points -3 in his one playoff series with the Ducks too. He's not a postseason winner.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on May 1, 2023 20:44:42 GMT -5
His last month of the regular season was off too. It's difficult to peg exactly when he went into his end of season decline, but it clearly extended into the playoffs. Take a look at last season's playoffs too against Carolina. Zero points last year too, zero points this year. He fades. It's what he does. 2 points -3 in his one playoff series with the Ducks too. He's not a postseason winner. He’s a 6’4 top pairing defenseman, you wouldn’t need to eat salary |
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Post by texs31 on May 6, 2023 8:27:31 GMT -5
Poitras signed his ELC. Had a great year this year.
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Post by bigmarty58 on May 17, 2023 16:17:38 GMT -5
Boston Globe is reporting Hampus Lindholm had a fractured foot in the playoffs. Lindholm is believed to have suffered the injury on March 11 when he blocked a shot in a game against the Red Wings. The story does not indicate if Lindholm needs any sort of surgery for the injury. This explains why his skating was off against the Panthers.
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Post by texs31 on May 18, 2023 6:14:51 GMT -5
I feel very confident that they will move on from at least 2, if not 3 of Forbort, Reilly and Grzelcyk. The former 2 will likely need to be bought out (our youth can't take attaching a pick or prospect for someone to take them). Grz will come down to what you can get for him. Ultimately, I don't think they are going to re-sign him after next year so getting something for him is likely the right call.
I also feel like they should either trade a goalie or a wing and it all comes down to Bergeron and Krejci. If both retire, then you really aren't competing for a Cup so trade a goalie (keeping Sway lines up better with the new timeline).
If BOTH are back, then you trade a wing (since Zacha can stay there) and keep both goalies (Sway likely is only looking for a bridge deal since the Cap should rise in subsequent ones - something that would still be true in the previous scenario) because you still can compete.
If only one is back?? I guess it would depend on what else you can get done (and how much Sway wants on the bridge deal).
In all 3 scenarios, youth and/or cheap vets (ideally the former) to fill out the 4th line and bottom pair. Give jobs to Steen, Lauko, Zboril and others. If you're contending but they need to be upgraded, those are deadline moves.
The only other thing I'd add is that if you think/want to keep Bertuzzi, you're probably trading another player to create room.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 26, 2023 14:14:27 GMT -5
Taylor Hall and UFA rights to Nick Foligno to Chicago for RFA RHD's Alec Regula and Ian Mitchell. No retention so Boston saves 6M against the cap. Would think that's a move to clear for Bertuzzi.
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Post by tizzle on Jun 26, 2023 16:42:39 GMT -5
A little bummed. I really liked Hall and thought there might have been ways to save cap without him going. But not mad either. Choices were gonna be made.
Getting RHD depth is a good spot to add. Regula seems like he at least has a bit of potential.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on Jun 26, 2023 17:00:39 GMT -5
Sucks but cap moves had to be made unfortunately
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Post by bigmarty58 on Jun 26, 2023 17:09:57 GMT -5
Okay with Hall going to the Blackhawks if we use the cap space to bring Bert back. Should be a wild week for the Bruins. Wish Krecji and Bergie would announce if they are coming back, indications are that neither will. A goalie (Ullmark) is going to go, hopefully for a center (Mark Scheifele). Three d-men ( Forebort, Grz. and buyout Reilly)are also going to need to be moved to clear cap to sign Swayman and Frederic and Lauko. Rest of the team fill in with inside promotions.
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Post by homerdante on Jun 26, 2023 17:30:45 GMT -5
Thank God! Good Riddance to both!
I know you can't really say on these past two teams these guys were "the problem" per se, but they also were not part of the solution, and they made WAY, WAY more money than either of them were worth. From a WAR perspective, if there was a similar metric in hockey, each of them were tremendous busts, and getting out from under them at all is a massive win for a team that needs some salary cap wins right now. Massive negative WAR players. Bye Bye!
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Post by texs31 on Jun 26, 2023 18:53:47 GMT -5
There IS a statistic that the analytical folks at the Athletic put together and Hall was far from a bust.
Worth his contract? No. But that had as much to do with usage. Barelyvused on PP but mostly bc others just happen to be better.
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Post by homerdante on Jun 26, 2023 20:15:22 GMT -5
There IS a statistic that the analytical folks at the Athletic put together and Hall was far from a bust. Worth his contract? No. But that had as much to do with usage. Barelyvused on PP but mostly bc others just happen to be better. Does that metric take into account that he was on the third line, and so playing against the other teams 2nd or 3rd D pair most of the time? Because at 6million per, on the third line, he should have had a lot more than 16 goals, sorry, for me he's a bust at that salary. It's somewhat sad if you can't even crack the powerplay too at that salary. For him to not be good enough to be on the powerplay is pathetic. He's just too expensive with too little talent and performance. Sweeney extrapolated from a small sample size that first year he arrived when he was on fire playing with Krecji, and they looked into the future and thought he would maintain that and return to his previous form. It was a wager and it did not go well. |
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on Jun 26, 2023 20:56:12 GMT -5
Taylor Hall was by far their best player in the playoffs, I’m fine with the move but to pretend he’s a JAG is bizarre and quite frankly not accurate
They used the 3rd line in a shutdown role that they were very effective in. By far the line with the most defensive zone starts. If he wanted to free wheel instead of playing his role you would have been calling him a bad teammate.
Also I’m not gonna criticize him for what amounts to a coaches decision when the coach still has shit running down his leg from the playoffs
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Post by homerdante on Jun 26, 2023 21:45:57 GMT -5
Taylor Hall was by far their best player in the playoffs, I’m fine with the move but to pretend he’s a JAG is bizarre and quite frankly not accurate They used the 3rd line in a shutdown role that they were very effective in. By far the line with the most defensive zone starts. If he wanted to free wheel instead of playing his role you would have been calling him a bad teammate. Also I’m not gonna criticize him for what amounts to a coaches decision when the coach still has shit running down his leg from the playoffs He disappeared in the last two games of the playoffs, he admittedly had solid games in three and four. For the blackhawks to take him without the Bruins retains salary clearly means they think he still has something left in the tank relative to his salary. Who knows, playing up on the first line maybe rebuilds his value some and lets him get one more contract. If he were really the all caps Taylor Hall the hockey journalists have to infer in every mention of him, he played on the second line with Krecji and Pasta instead of Zacha. He forced his way up there with performance in a third line role where he makes the opposing teams look terrible. He never forced that conversation--granted the long injury absence. Sure, lay him on Montgomery too, Monty has the most shit on him at the moment after fumbling the greatest regular seasons record in a first round. I'd rather see the Bruins spend 6 million in a different way. I'd rather see them spend Coyle's salary in a different way too. The thing with Hall every talking head repeats over and over again was his one season with NJ. Everyone always hopes he might be a 90 point player, or his first round pick pedigree stuff. Looking over his career stats, he just never deserved to make the money he did based on performance. It was always based on hope with him, and he didn't deliver. Was he fine in spots? Sure. Is fine in spots 6 million? Not a chance, not in hockey in a hard cap league. I want at least 30 goals a year for that money, consistently, every year 30. I'll be surprised if Hall ever puts up 30 again. |
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on Jun 26, 2023 22:24:32 GMT -5
He had 8 points in 7 games and was by far their best player in that series, it honestly wasn’t a competition either. He showed up while very few others did. Bertuzzi produced offensively but had horrible giveaways
I imagine this deal was done so they could retain Bertuzzi which i am ultimately cool with. I love his instant chemistry with Pasta, I think they could put up massive numbers over the course of a full season together
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Post by texs31 on Jun 27, 2023 6:16:40 GMT -5
The issue I have is you're brining up a point we all agree on (that the money is better spent elsewhere) to defend your position that he was a "bust".
Would've thought/hoped we had the capacity to recognize the multitude of possibilities in between those.
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Post by trajanacc on Jun 27, 2023 6:39:19 GMT -5
^yeah, this. I basically agree with homerdante but the point is way overstated. Starting an argument with “good riddance, get ‘em outta here!” is not typically an introduction to a reasonable sports debate.
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Post by homerdante on Jun 27, 2023 11:04:18 GMT -5
I readily agree that Hall was not Backes. Not even close. The Bruins got some value from him, my primary point in my first post is that he was a negative WAR (relative to his contract--i should have said underperformer) type of player in terms of the Bruins paying him as a 3-4 WAR sort of hockey player, and he was giving you 1. That's my overall contention. I also get annoyed that the one year he had a 90 point season, which seemed to be a lull year in the league before the McDavid express got rolling--everyone seemed to think that was who he is. The Bruins hoped to catch lightning in a bottle with him, and looking at his career, he's just not a perennial Hart candidate. His career year was a fluke. He's likely never hitting 90 points again. It's about like the former sluggers everyone dreams on finding the hitch in their swing and bringing them to MVP contention. These are low probability outcomes.
He can probably give you 40-50 points, maybe 60 in a good year, but his likely statistical outcomes if you had to try to forecast, are not favorable for him being worth 6 mill ever again. That's it. The Bruins in hindsight overpayed, they guessed wrong, and now they're out from under the last two years of his deal. We're all thrilled!
I was reacting to CDJ cherrypicking one statistic, as he's often done in Bruins threads. Hall came back from a long vacation (injury) and was flying all over the rink--he had more rest and juice in his legs than anyone else on the ice and he was playing third line, and had an ok playoff series--I don't think anyone had a great playoff series on the Bruins, but Hall and Bertuzzi numbers wise were two of the best on the team. I'm judging Hall's play based on his entire tenure with us and career. He's not a JAG or zero WAR type, but he's not worth his money by any metric, even one playoff series where he was well rested and no one else was.
I'm fine with admitting he's not a total loss on the order of a Backes, but I'm also over the hyperbole from the Bruins administration and the media that he's going to have another 90 point season. Never was going to, never will.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 27, 2023 11:48:05 GMT -5
I'm not a huge hockey guy, yet giving Bertuzzi a big deal is basically giving Coyle and Hall big deals no? Hoping he matches his career year and the fact he improved for a short run after getting them? He misses a bunch of games.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 27, 2023 13:38:02 GMT -5
I readily agree that Hall was not Backes. Not even close. The Bruins got some value from him, my primary point in my first post is that he was a negative WAR (relative to his contract--i should have said underperformer) type of player in terms of the Bruins paying him as a 3-4 WAR sort of hockey player, and he was giving you 1. That's my overall contention. I also get annoyed that the one year he had a 90 point season, which seemed to be a lull year in the league before the McDavid express got rolling--everyone seemed to think that was who he is. The Bruins hoped to catch lightning in a bottle with him, and looking at his career, he's just not a perennial Hart candidate. His career year was a fluke. He's likely never hitting 90 points again. It's about like the former sluggers everyone dreams on finding the hitch in their swing and bringing them to MVP contention. These are low probability outcomes. He can probably give you 40-50 points, maybe 60 in a good year, but his likely statistical outcomes if you had to try to forecast, are not favorable for him being worth 6 mill ever again. That's it. The Bruins in hindsight overpayed, they guessed wrong, and now they're out from under the last two years of his deal. We're all thrilled! I was reacting to CDJ cherrypicking one statistic, as he's often done in Bruins threads. Hall came back from a long vacation (injury) and was flying all over the rink--he had more rest and juice in his legs than anyone else on the ice and he was playing third line, and had an ok playoff series--I don't think anyone had a great playoff series on the Bruins, but Hall and Bertuzzi numbers wise were two of the best on the team. I'm judging Hall's play based on his entire tenure with us and career. He's not a JAG or zero WAR type, but he's not worth his money by any metric, even one playoff series where he was well rested and no one else was. I'm fine with admitting he's not a total loss on the order of a Backes, but I'm also over the hyperbole from the Bruins administration and the media that he's going to have another 90 point season. Never was going to, never will. An “ok playoff series” Lmao yeah you’re dishonest at this point “Cherry picking one statistic” yeah or maybe if you have working retinas you’d be able to see he was by far their best player like most other people with vision were able to do. All the advanced metrics show that as well. Montgomery is a moron for not playing him more while 3/4 of the lineup no-showed Btw nobody thought he was gonna be a 90 point player, you’re making a straw man. Good job defeating said straw man though, A+ work. Did a great job of inventing something just to knock it down lmao Like I said I don’t mind the trade, but you pretending he was an underwater player is silly. Still a very good hockey player and Chicago is getting a good fit to pair with a rookie Bedard (and also getting a good mentor in Foligno). He’s a top 6 winger. You have to give up assets or retain a significant amount of money to get a team to take on an underwater players these days. We see it all the time across the league. See Backes. Chicago actually gave up assets (well, an asset…I think Mitchell is just fodder) to take on his full contract. This is more like the Bjorkstrand trade Columbus made with the Kraken where they move a clearly talented player for a marginal return because they were backed against a wall and the whole league knows it. Basically if he was as overpaid as you claim he is they’d have to trade picks WITH him to move him. Especially since he’s not an expiring deal. The opposite happened- they got a 22 YO big defenseman with some nhl experience to hopefully develop into a steady bottom pairing guy. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 27, 2023 13:41:02 GMT -5
I'm not a huge hockey guy, yet giving Bertuzzi a big deal is basically giving Coyle and Hall big deals no? Hoping he matches his career year and the fact he improved for a short run after getting them? He misses a bunch of games. Like most hockey UFA contracts it’s probably not a wise long-term investment. He’ll replace some lost production and seemed to have good chemistry with Pastrnak though . Makes dumb decisions with the puck pretty frequently though so he’ll have to work on that + his 2 way game |
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