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Patriots 2023 Season Thread
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 6, 2023 18:09:50 GMT -5
Cardinals QB Kyler Murray to start Sunday if no setbacks, I wish him good luck. If he wins and/or plays great maybe they look to trade away their pick or use it on something other than a QB (understand he's got a 4 year deal in front of him, but they could red shirt the rookie and then trade Kyler or release and eat some money). |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 6, 2023 18:17:52 GMT -5
A franchise QB who will still be less than he could be bc of a void of talent around him (my tongue is only partially in my cheek) Start Mac next year and let new QB marinate on bench. Buy another year of building up the offense before installing him I can't imagine this wouldn't cause a lot of headaches. What happens if Mac is good, but not great? What if Mac has a breakout year? What if Mac is serviceable, gets hurt, and the rookie plays well? Mac is auditioning for his next job in this scenario. I'm all for a red shirt year, but I think you need to do it with a veteran who understands their role. |
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Post by mobaz on Nov 6, 2023 18:28:12 GMT -5
OK? Ready to get that optometrist appointment? This team is soooo undisciplined and the buck 100% stops at the coach and staff. His personel decisions and playing time decisions have bordered on spiteful.I disagree with the sentiment that all this means Brady was the engine of success. Classic Belichick teams overperformed in all three phases and were more than the sum of their parts. That hasn't happened for the Pats since 2018. Sounds like something you heard on Fellah & Mazzone. Or maybe you're an NFL insider who knows all the best players & all the best scheme fits & has all the health info & is fully informed as to how NE players are taking to practice, film work, teamwork, etc. etc.? Aside: saw a cool thing the other day: Many a novice looks in the mirror, sees an expert looking back, and is satisfied. It is why there are so few experts. Really? You are really supportive of the starting lineups going out there? I try not to get personal on these boards but I don't get what you are seeing the past 3 years that gives you any confidence in Belichick the GM or Belichick the Coach. You defend him endlessly. Why? The team is 2-7 and looks like it. |
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Post by cdj on Nov 6, 2023 18:30:04 GMT -5
Start Mac next year and let new QB marinate on bench. Buy another year of building up the offense before installing him I can't imagine this wouldn't cause a lot of headaches. What happens if Mac is good, but not great? What if Mac has a breakout year? What if Mac is serviceable, gets hurt, and the rookie plays well? Mac is auditioning for his next job in this scenario. I'm all for a red shirt year, but I think you need to do it with a veteran who understands their role. Literally all those things are good things, not headaches If Mac is good then great, franchise and trade. If Mac is great then great, franchise and trade. If Mac is ok and gets hurt then sucks for him, doesn’t really impact us one way or the other long term. He’s the one playing for another deal/opportunity, and I’m not sure why you think that’s a bad thing? He’ll be motivated. That’s all it means. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 6, 2023 18:41:36 GMT -5
I can't imagine this wouldn't cause a lot of headaches. What happens if Mac is good, but not great? What if Mac has a breakout year? What if Mac is serviceable, gets hurt, and the rookie plays well? Mac is auditioning for his next job in this scenario. I'm all for a red shirt year, but I think you need to do it with a veteran who understands their role. Literally all those things are good things, not headaches If Mac is good then great, franchise and trade. If Mac is great then great, franchise and trade. If Mac is ok and gets hurt then sucks for him, doesn’t really impact us one way or the other long term. He’s the one playing for another deal/opportunity, and I’m not sure why you think that’s a bad thing? He’ll be motivated. That’s all it means. Theoretically, yes, and maybe it is a good problem to have, but you'll have a divided locker room and then you're adding pressure on the rookie if Mac happens to play well and then leave. |
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Post by cdj on Nov 6, 2023 18:52:26 GMT -5
Literally all those things are good things, not headaches If Mac is good then great, franchise and trade. If Mac is great then great, franchise and trade. If Mac is ok and gets hurt then sucks for him, doesn’t really impact us one way or the other long term. He’s the one playing for another deal/opportunity, and I’m not sure why you think that’s a bad thing? He’ll be motivated. That’s all it means. Theoretically, yes, and maybe it is a good problem to have, but you'll have a divided locker room and then you're adding pressure on the rookie if Mac happens to play well and then leave. I don’t think those are real things to worry about. I also don’t think we have to worry about Mac all of a sudden being a great QB so it’s a moot point. Worst case scenario it’s a Smith/Mahomes dynamic where one guy is solid but physically limited and we are just waiting on the Porsche to be ready to drive |
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Post by rasimon on Nov 6, 2023 20:16:39 GMT -5
Start Mac next year and let new QB marinate on bench. Buy another year of building up the offense before installing him I can't imagine this wouldn't cause a lot of headaches. What happens if Mac is good, but not great? What if Mac has a breakout year? What if Mac is serviceable, gets hurt, and the rookie plays well? Mac is auditioning for his next job in this scenario. I'm all for a red shirt year, but I think you need to do it with a veteran who understands their role. Also you only get 4-5 years of cost control. Its a waste of resources to draft a qb and then burn one of his cost controlled years by sitting him on the bench. |
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Post by cdj on Nov 6, 2023 20:46:00 GMT -5
I can't imagine this wouldn't cause a lot of headaches. What happens if Mac is good, but not great? What if Mac has a breakout year? What if Mac is serviceable, gets hurt, and the rookie plays well? Mac is auditioning for his next job in this scenario. I'm all for a red shirt year, but I think you need to do it with a veteran who understands their role. Also you only get 4-5 years of cost control. Its a waste of resources to draft a qb and then burn one of his cost controlled years by sitting him on the bench. Maybe you plug him in halfway through the year. There are plenty of examples of rookie QBs not starting immediately and then going on to be incredibly successful (the last two best QBs in football being solid examples) |
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Post by texs31 on Nov 7, 2023 8:26:31 GMT -5
Any young QB, Mac or otherwise, is going to be a failure without a supporting cast. Between Cap Space (which is only as good as the players who will sign) and high draft picks, they need to invest in a serious talent upgrade (especially on that side of the ball).
Based on their current projected draft pick, take the best non-QB (in this draft, thankfully, that SHOULD be an offensive player) with the 1st pick. They are too devoid of talent to focus on a position (even QB). Mac's your QB next year (without his option being picked up) and see if improvement around him results in something to work with (either keeping him or getting something in a trade). Draft-and-develop a QB later (even if it's a 2nd rd pick).
If their draft position moves up? Every day brings a different thought for me. On the one hand, you don't often get chances to draft a franchise caliber QB (for now, I'm assuming Williams and Maye are that). On the other, again, without the proper supporting cast there is a risk they follow a similar path to Mac (not the same bc they have, inherently, way more talent).
Ultimately, this doesn't come down to how high their draft pick is, whether they should trade up or trade down or whether or not Mac can be good enough to move forward with. It comes down to whether or not Bill is still in charge and, if so, will he make the philosophical changes needed to focus resources on an improved offense.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 7, 2023 8:41:44 GMT -5
Any young QB, Mac or otherwise, is going to be a failure without a supporting cast. Between Cap Space (which is only as good as the players who will sign) and high draft picks, they need to invest in a serious talent upgrade (especially on that side of the ball). Based on their current projected draft pick, take the best non-QB (in this draft, thankfully, that SHOULD be an offensive player) with the 1st pick. They are too devoid of talent to focus on a position (even QB). Mac's your QB next year (without his option being picked up) and see if improvement around him results in something to work with (either keeping him or getting something in a trade). Draft-and-develop a QB later (even if it's a 2nd rd pick). If their draft position moves up? Every day brings a different thought for me. On the one hand, you don't often get chances to draft a franchise caliber QB (for now, I'm assuming Williams and Maye are that). On the other, again, without the proper supporting cast there is a risk they follow a similar path to Mac (not the same bc they have, inherently, way more talent). Ultimately, this doesn't come down to how high their draft pick is, whether they should trade up or trade down or whether or not Mac can be good enough to move forward with. It comes down to whether or not Bill is still in charge and, if so, will he make the philosophical changes needed to focus resources on an improved offense. I will be furious if they don't take a QB. |
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Post by cdj on Nov 7, 2023 8:49:48 GMT -5
They pick 3rd and draft MHJR I will survive
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Post by pedromartinez1999 on Nov 7, 2023 9:49:07 GMT -5
Any young QB, Mac or otherwise, is going to be a failure without a supporting cast. Between Cap Space (which is only as good as the players who will sign) and high draft picks, they need to invest in a serious talent upgrade (especially on that side of the ball). Based on their current projected draft pick, take the best non-QB (in this draft, thankfully, that SHOULD be an offensive player) with the 1st pick. They are too devoid of talent to focus on a position (even QB). Mac's your QB next year (without his option being picked up) and see if improvement around him results in something to work with (either keeping him or getting something in a trade). Draft-and-develop a QB later (even if it's a 2nd rd pick). If their draft position moves up? Every day brings a different thought for me. On the one hand, you don't often get chances to draft a franchise caliber QB (for now, I'm assuming Williams and Maye are that). On the other, again, without the proper supporting cast there is a risk they follow a similar path to Mac (not the same bc they have, inherently, way more talent). Ultimately, this doesn't come down to how high their draft pick is, whether they should trade up or trade down or whether or not Mac can be good enough to move forward with. It comes down to whether or not Bill is still in charge and, if so, will he make the philosophical changes needed to focus resources on an improved offense. You really get it good read on your part. You can get a new shinney penny with a new QB, but if you don't put impact talented players around him you're right back in a Mac Jones situation I want one of Caleb Williams, Drake Maye, or Brock Bowers which, I really like or Marvin Harrison Jr. I wonder if his father is Marvin Harrison Sr of the Colts? Good genes if so. The last thing I want is the Patriots draft Olu Fashanu when you can get above average OT in free agency and draft a good weapon if QB are out of your reach. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 7, 2023 10:01:46 GMT -5
Any young QB, Mac or otherwise, is going to be a failure without a supporting cast. Between Cap Space (which is only as good as the players who will sign) and high draft picks, they need to invest in a serious talent upgrade (especially on that side of the ball). Based on their current projected draft pick, take the best non-QB (in this draft, thankfully, that SHOULD be an offensive player) with the 1st pick. They are too devoid of talent to focus on a position (even QB). Mac's your QB next year (without his option being picked up) and see if improvement around him results in something to work with (either keeping him or getting something in a trade). Draft-and-develop a QB later (even if it's a 2nd rd pick). If their draft position moves up? Every day brings a different thought for me. On the one hand, you don't often get chances to draft a franchise caliber QB (for now, I'm assuming Williams and Maye are that). On the other, again, without the proper supporting cast there is a risk they follow a similar path to Mac (not the same bc they have, inherently, way more talent). Ultimately, this doesn't come down to how high their draft pick is, whether they should trade up or trade down or whether or not Mac can be good enough to move forward with. It comes down to whether or not Bill is still in charge and, if so, will he make the philosophical changes needed to focus resources on an improved offense. You really get it good read on your part. You can get a new shinney penny with a new QB, but if you don't put impact talented players around him you're right back in a Mac Jones situation I want one of Caleb Williams, Drake Maye, or Brock Bowers which, I really like or Marvin Harrison Jr. I wonder if his father is Marvin Harrison Sr of the Colts? Good genes if so. The last thing I want is the Patriots draft Olu Fashanu when you can get above average OT in free agency and draft a good weapon if QB are out of your reach. That's under the notion that Mac Jones could have ever been an elite QB. I don't think that's the case. He had solid QB potential and has gotten worse since his rookie season. The Patriots could have signed DeAndre Hopkins and Jackobi Meyers and be sufficient on offense. The Jaguars aren't regretting Trevor Lawrence with the number one overall pick. I'm imagining Texans fans are ecstatic to have CJ Stroud. The Jets were a 4 win team and despite Wilson being awful and the pick utterly wasted, were able to build a great team around him. You will never see Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, or Patrick Mahomes hit free agency unless the wheels fall off with them. If you have a guy, they're locked up forever until the team thinks they can do better. Getting a QB should always be priority 1. The 49ers have an other worldly roster with a decent QB. I feel like that's almost harder to accomplish and if they don't win it'll likely circle back to the QB not being good enough. Worry about the hardest position to find and do whatever you need to in order to round out the roster. I would take Marvin Harrison Jr in a heartbeat if the QB class was weak, but it's not. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 7, 2023 10:25:40 GMT -5
Look at Houston, you have a hard time telling me that team has more offensive talent. That rookie QB has made players better. Collins is going to double his his career yardage in his third season. Onwenu to RT fixed the OL and all it did was expose Mac Jones. Actually watching him with time to throw is horrible. He's not seeing the field well, he locks onto receivers and routes, he's throwing passes late, he seems to really struggle with forming chemistry with WR, which he basically admits too.
Now I find it so funny that our OC hasn't been called out, he's been horrible. I go offer Josh McDaniels a huge amount of money, whatever it takes to get him back.
What I do agree with is you don't overdraft a QB. So depending on draft slot and who's available yeah you might not go QB in first. Its not I'm passing on QBs though, it's the top guys are gone and I'm not over drafting the remaining guys. Most agree this class had two really good QBs, the rest is a debate. So taking a WR, OT or best TE in years first is certainly in play. Then look at coming back and trading into late first if the right QB is there. If Williams and Maye are gone, that's a good safe play. No way I pass on Williams and not likely on Maye either.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 7, 2023 10:41:58 GMT -5
I mostly agree with the above, but this class is deeper than the two guys. Maye and Williams might be 1 and 1A, but you're getting really great potential out of the next 6 guys like J.J. McCarthy. Though if Bill is picking, he's taking a guy like Michael Penix Jr. I don't know how much a potential HoF WR is going to help if you can't get an elite QB to pair with. You'll win games and maybe win a playoff round or 2, but you're unlikely to host a Lombardi without the QB. I want them to reach, but within reason. I don't want them taking the next Tebow with a 1st rounder just because they're desperate.
As far as McDaniels is concerned, I wouldn't hire him until you have a new coach and that coach wants to work with him. I'm not making any staff changes until the HC is replaced.
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Post by cdj on Nov 7, 2023 11:16:01 GMT -5
Trade Belichick!
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 7, 2023 11:42:01 GMT -5
Chargers GM apologized to the team for signing JC Jackson. This story might be weirder than Josh McDaniels.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 7, 2023 12:17:08 GMT -5
Never said Mac could be elite. Never said Mac could be as good as Stroud. Clearly said (above) that the Top 2 QBs are likely better than what he could be (or could've been).
Mac was NEVER going to be that (from the moment we drafted him). He was and has been a different kind of QB. Doesn't mean you didn't have a chance to win with him (and, yes, it's harder when you have a more limited talent at the position). But less talented QBs have won in this league.
The larger point above is that I don't care who you have out there, he won't be as good or have as good a chance if you don't surround him with talent (talent that probably requires a focus in FA and Draft). How many times, on this board, has someone said that BB cost Tom Brady (you know, the greatest QB in the history of the game) more SBs because he didn't surround him with talent. If that impacts the Goat, it'll impact everyone else.
So again, I'm not trying to sell you on Mac Jones STILL having a chance to be the guy. It's not 0% but it's too low to be worth it. What I'm suggesting is that without a change in philosophy, Williams and Maye will fall WELL short of their ceilings.
So IF you're taking one of those guys, you better be sure you have a structure in place that will help him succeed QUICKLY.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 7, 2023 13:37:36 GMT -5
I'm not sold on any QB besides the top 2 being top 5 pick material, not yet at least. McCarthy for example get back at me after Penn State, Ohio State and big ten championship game, along with bowl game. He so far has basically faced so good teams. I've seen people rate Bo Nix crazy high, I only watched one game, I didn't see that. Penix looks that way, he's older and with that injury history he likely goes lower. Yeah there's a few more and they are mostly the same. We'll see what the end of season brings and go from there. I can certainly change my mind, right now I don't have anyone else close to top 5. Especially when truly elite WR, OT and TE will be there, much safer positions.
Kinda pissed they didn't trade up for Will Levis after reports they scouted him heavily.
The chances Bill is gone are crazy slim, you're watching too much Boston sports radio crap. Those guys love this crap and go wild with it. A headcoach who doesn't want to work with Josh McDaniels is probably a person I don't want to be coach. He's one of the best OC in the league.
Ideally in this draft they do the reverse of last year, go offense for the first 3-4 picks. QB, TE, WR and OT. Free agency is as loaded as it gets with WR. I'd target Mike Evans given his age, plus you'll have Douglas, Boutte and Juju. So go get that big play X WR.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 7, 2023 15:32:28 GMT -5
I'm not sold on any QB besides the top 2 being top 5 pick material, not yet at least. McCarthy for example get back at me after Penn State, Ohio State and big ten championship game, along with bowl game. He so far has basically faced so good teams. I've seen people rate Bo Nix crazy high, I only watched one game, I didn't see that. Penix looks that way, he's older and with that injury history he likely goes lower. Yeah there's a few more and they are mostly the same. We'll see what the end of season brings and go from there. I can certainly change my mind, right now I don't have anyone else close to top 5. Especially when truly elite WR, OT and TE will be there, much safer positions. Kinda pissed they didn't trade up for Will Levis after reports they scouted him heavily. The chances Bill is gone are crazy slim, you're watching too much Boston sports radio crap. Those guys love this crap and go wild with it. A headcoach who doesn't want to work with Josh McDaniels is probably a person I don't want to be coach. He's one of the best OC in the league. Ideally in this draft they do the reverse of last year, go offense for the first 3-4 picks. QB, TE, WR and OT. Free agency is as loaded as it gets with WR. I'd target Mike Evans given his age, plus you'll have Douglas, Boutte and Juju. So go get that big play X WR. Their record post-Brady is 27-32 and they've gotten worse, not better. My understanding on Brady leaving was Bill not wanting to give him 20+ million so instead they ran out the ghost of Cam Newton and rookie Mac Jones. There was no succession plan other than Garapollo and we see just how good he really is. He's had poor drafts, roster signings, personnel decisions. Having Matt Patricia as your OC was so laughable, other coaches in the league were publicly laughing at them. Even still, they brought in a "real" OC and somehow got worse. I don't think it's slim at all that he's gone after the season. Fans are starting to boo the team during home games. There's not really much of any defense for Bill at this point. Even if Mac Jones was forced on him, he got to pick the backup in Zappe and just lost to a QB who looked better than both guys that was taken after both of them. He also wanted to go with Jimmy and had Hoyer starting over Bailey before he got hurt. In an historic WR draft, he picked the one guy who was a bust. I don't know how Kraft justifies him returning. For the last couple of years he's publicly stated his expectations as, "win a play off game" last year and this year was, "get to the playoffs". The only thing keeping Bill here is that stupid record no one cares about. This team isn't even well coached. I digress. Don't get me wrong on McDaniels, I think he's terrific on offense. I just want to make sure whomever is HC gets to pick their own staff so if it fails we don't get, "well, Mayo/Vrabel/RSF2 didn't get the chance to run the offense they wanted because they were forced to take McDaniels". I hate that the Red Sox made it clear Cora wasn't going anywhere before they hired Breslow. This is hopefully the highest the Patriots will ever draft again in my lifetime in what looks like a deep class. They might have flaws and concerns, but I doubt you're getting a better QB prospect at 15 next season. Ideally, I would trade this pick and next year's 1st to get Maye. I actually want them to take two guys (4th-5th round) and replace both Mac and Zappe. Are there any mid-to-late round QBs with a funny name? Edit: What I do think is incredibly slim is Bill being fired mid-season. My guess is Bill "retires" at the end of the year. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 7, 2023 16:44:42 GMT -5
Never said Mac could be elite. Never said Mac could be as good as Stroud. Clearly said (above) that the Top 2 QBs are likely better than what he could be (or could've been). Mac was NEVER going to be that (from the moment we drafted him). He was and has been a different kind of QB. Doesn't mean you didn't have a chance to win with him (and, yes, it's harder when you have a more limited talent at the position). But less talented QBs have won in this league. The larger point above is that I don't care who you have out there, he won't be as good or have as good a chance if you don't surround him with talent (talent that probably requires a focus in FA and Draft). How many times, on this board, has someone said that BB cost Tom Brady (you know, the greatest QB in the history of the game) more SBs because he didn't surround him with talent. If that impacts the Goat, it'll impact everyone else. So again, I'm not trying to sell you on Mac Jones STILL having a chance to be the guy. It's not 0% but it's too low to be worth it. What I'm suggesting is that without a change in philosophy, Williams and Maye will fall WELL short of their ceilings. So IF you're taking one of those guys, you better be sure you have a structure in place that will help him succeed QUICKLY. I guess I would put it this way, once you have Maye or Williams, they might not be what you expect of them year 1 or 2 or even 3, but you have their entire career if you wanted to figure it out. On the inverse, having the system in place is going to prevent you from being a top 5-10 draft pick so you will really need to gut away draft picks on the chance of the next guy and that's even if teams are willing to trade away the potential QB pick. |
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Post by cdj on Nov 7, 2023 21:45:40 GMT -5
The good news is Mondre is back
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Post by texs31 on Nov 8, 2023 10:25:22 GMT -5
JC Jackson not heading to Germany given "questions about his reliability", per RapSheet.
Woof.
Edit - Follow up reports say he was late to the team hotel on Saturday (Patriots stay at a hotel, even for home games, for meetings, "accountability", etc. per Callahan).
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Post by texs31 on Nov 8, 2023 10:53:26 GMT -5
Also, Adrian Klemm didn't speak to the media yesterday due to "health reasons" and will reportedly be out for a while, per reports.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Nov 8, 2023 11:36:22 GMT -5
what a circus
My Thoughts are with Adrian Klemm, that doesn’t sound good
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