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Patriots 2023 Season Thread
cdj
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Posts: 15,875 
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Post by cdj on Nov 13, 2023 9:14:46 GMT -5
As of now they have a guarantee of getting either of the top QB or MHJR
Keep losing!
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Post by congusgambler33 on Nov 13, 2023 9:47:02 GMT -5
You will all be shocked when they take an OT.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Nov 13, 2023 10:19:53 GMT -5
You will all be shocked when they take an OT. And not the one you think! |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 13, 2023 10:47:47 GMT -5
As of now they have a guarantee of getting either of the top QB or MHJR Keep losing! I'd rather trade back and get a QB that's the 3rd or 4th ranked in this draft and get extra capital for MHJR. I just don't think you'll get much other than excitement when you have Bailey Zappe throwing him passes. |
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Nov 13, 2023 11:40:29 GMT -5
www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38884214/fire-bill-belichick-bench-mac-jones-next-2023-patriots-lost-seasonBill Barnwell of ESPN (free!) has a DETAILED breakdown of the breakdown, on personnel, draft, coaching, lack of innovation, etc. A very worthwhile read, but generally he says there's no guarantee of getting a better coach and the defense has been pretty good so he thinks Belichick should stay, but the team needs outside voices on offense and in personnel dept to get out of the BB Way rut. Also Jones is a disaster but should play the rest of the year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 13, 2023 11:46:21 GMT -5
You don't trade away chances to take elite players at position of need to chase a QB that carries a much lower grade and more risk.
It's early, but you have elite graded top 5 talent at WR, TE and LT. That's likely the best WR and TE to come out in years. Take the safe pieces you need if you miss out on the QBs, then come back and take a QB. It's a large group of QB, a bunch will slide. Absolutely It's not ideal, but the quality of talent at major positions of need is something you don't pass up to overdraft a QB.
I don't really understand Caleb Williams sliding, he had one bad game against a very good defense. He's not the reason USC keeps losing, it's horrible D is. He's still my #1 target, he just seems more polished than Maye.
One thing I like with both top QBs, they lost their favorite targets and both came back and are having very good years again.
Am I the only one worried about Bill chasing Cousins?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 13, 2023 11:55:22 GMT -5
www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38884214/fire-bill-belichick-bench-mac-jones-next-2023-patriots-lost-seasonBill Barnwell of ESPN (free!) has a DETAILED breakdown of the breakdown, on personnel, draft, coaching, lack of innovation, etc. A very worthwhile read, but generally he says there's no guarantee of getting a better coach and the defense has been pretty good so he thinks Belichick should stay, but the team needs outside voices on offense and in personnel dept to get out of the BB Way rut. Also Jones is a disaster but should play the rest of the year. Josh McDaniels all day long! I'm all for a former GM being brought in as an advisor. I'd like to see Kraft tell Bill to go for it, think 2007 getting Welker and Moss type crap. No need for the trying to build good teams for two plus decades. Go for it, Bill won't be here when the cap payments come due, think Bucs with Brady. Just focus on difference makers when overpaying, guys with good track records. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2023 12:43:47 GMT -5
You don't trade away chances to take elite players at position of need to chase a QB that carries a much lower grade and more risk. It's early, but you have elite graded top 5 talent at WR, TE and LT. That's likely the best WR and TE to come out in years. Take the safe pieces you need if you miss out on the QBs, then come back and take a QB. It's a large group of QB, a bunch will slide. Absolutely It's not ideal, but the quality of talent at major positions of need is something you don't pass up to overdraft a QB. I don't really understand Caleb Williams sliding, he had one bad game against a very good defense. He's not the reason USC keeps losing, it's horrible D is. He's still my #1 target, he just seems more polished than Maye. One thing I like with both top QBs, they lost their favorite targets and both came back and are having very good years again. Am I the only one worried about Bill chasing Cousins? Caleb Williams kind of seems like a nightmare: Looking for an equity stake in whatever team drafts him. His father talking about them exploring options when it comes to this years draft Running into the stands immediately after losing to cry with his mother vs. being with his teammates (idc that he cried, but running away from your team isn’t bad look) He seems like a lot to deal with… Plus, he’s pretty small, plays in a simple offense and I’ve heard people say his timing is poor, never delivering the ball on time. Doesn’t sound like much of a Patriot, but I have no legs to stand on when it comes to the scouting side, just stuff I’ve loosely heard. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 13, 2023 13:08:26 GMT -5
You don't trade away chances to take elite players at position of need to chase a QB that carries a much lower grade and more risk. It's early, but you have elite graded top 5 talent at WR, TE and LT. That's likely the best WR and TE to come out in years. Take the safe pieces you need if you miss out on the QBs, then come back and take a QB. It's a large group of QB, a bunch will slide. Absolutely It's not ideal, but the quality of talent at major positions of need is something you don't pass up to overdraft a QB. I don't really understand Caleb Williams sliding, he had one bad game against a very good defense. He's not the reason USC keeps losing, it's horrible D is. He's still my #1 target, he just seems more polished than Maye. One thing I like with both top QBs, they lost their favorite targets and both came back and are having very good years again. Am I the only one worried about Bill chasing Cousins? I chase. The NFL is peppered with elite WRs who never truly helped an organization because the pieces around them were rarely good enough. Megatron, Brandon Marshall, Larry Fitzgerald had 4 playoff runs between 2004 and 2020, Chad Johnson had 3, OBJ has 2 playoff berths, but only 1 with the team that drafted him. Even if they get in, the list of great WRs winning a Superbowl with a mediocre QB is very slim. I don't think DK is going to win a ring as long as Geno Smith is throwing him passes. Elite WRs are massive weapons, but they're wasted when you have arguably the worst QB in football. I'm hoping the Patriots aren't a top 15 pick moving forward. |
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Post by texs31 on Nov 13, 2023 13:17:02 GMT -5
Patriots cutting Jack Jones. Yikes.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 13, 2023 13:22:01 GMT -5
Patriots cutting Jack Jones. Yikes. I read that as Mac, but wow. Nice draft pick. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2023 13:23:15 GMT -5
Patriots cutting Jack Jones. Yikes. I read that as Mac, but wow. Nice draft pick. Where they took him, it made sense - you can see the talent. I make that swing every day in the 4th round. |
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Post by costpet on Nov 13, 2023 13:27:50 GMT -5
Yes, Bill is horrible picking offensive players, but he's great when picking and coaching the defense. They only gave up 1 TD yesterday. Yet, they couldn't score one of their own. That's the major problem. Bill loves defense and that's why he picks those players early in the draft. Someone else has to step in and concentrate on the offensive side of the ball. I think getting McDaniels back as their OC would help a lot. Then find a good GM or draft guy to find some good offensive players for McDaniels to coach up. That would work. Let Bill do his thing on defense and the rest will fall into place.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 13, 2023 13:28:46 GMT -5
I read that as Mac, but wow. Nice draft pick. Where they took him, it made sense - you can see the talent. I make that swing every day in the 4th round. It's just another fail unfortunately in a long list of failures for Bill. There was high upside, but just like Aaron Hernandez, personal traits were too much to overcome. Other teams didn't think he was worth the gamble. Bill did. For what it's worth, I would have made the same move. I also have zero insight on the player as well. Not that he's anywhere near as horrible as Aaron is. |
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,046
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Post by mobaz on Nov 13, 2023 13:36:21 GMT -5
You don't trade away chances to take elite players at position of need to chase a QB that carries a much lower grade and more risk.
It's early, but you have elite graded top 5 talent at WR, TE and LT. That's likely the best WR and TE to come out in years. Take the safe pieces you need if you miss out on the QBs, then come back and take a QB. It's a large group of QB, a bunch will slide. Absolutely It's not ideal, but the quality of talent at major positions of need is something you don't pass up to overdraft a QB. I don't really understand Caleb Williams sliding, he had one bad game against a very good defense. He's not the reason USC keeps losing, it's horrible D is. He's still my #1 target, he just seems more polished than Maye. One thing I like with both top QBs, they lost their favorite targets and both came back and are having very good years again. Am I the only one worried about Bill chasing Cousins? I'm a big fan of just getting top-end talent, so I'm definitely getting Marvin Harrison Jr at 3 if QBs are gone. Unless someone like Jayden Daniels or Sanders goes nuts in Eval and show as a true 1c to Caleb/Maye. If not, I don't care, take the top talent then take 2-3 QBs later if it becomes as deep as it looks. Really. Roll the dice in the late 1st or get into the 2nd twice. I'd be fine with Cousins/MHJ honestly. He's plenty good enough if we can reinforce elsewhere. That's a great way to jumpstart a lackluster offense if we're not building from within for 2-3 yrs. |
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Post by texs31 on Nov 13, 2023 13:55:45 GMT -5
Where they took him, it made sense - you can see the talent. I make that swing every day in the 4th round. It's just another fail unfortunately in a long list of failures for Bill. There was high upside, but just like Aaron Hernandez, personal traits were too much to overcome. Other teams didn't think he was worth the gamble. Bill did. For what it's worth, I would have made the same move. I also have zero insight on the player as well. Not that he's anywhere near as horrible as Aaron is. If you want to say that many players that BB has picked have turned out bad, sure. Hopefully, someone is looking at it more analytically and more nuanced (otherwise you run the risk of just making a change and not actually fixing the problem). For every "failed" pick . . . - some have been poor judge of talent - some have been poor coaching - some have been poor choice of character . Again, some may say "who cares". Failure is failure. But if the hope is to fix the problem, not just complain about it, digging deeper is paramount. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2023 13:56:03 GMT -5
Where they took him, it made sense - you can see the talent. I make that swing every day in the 4th round. It's just another fail unfortunately in a long list of failures for Bill. There was high upside, but just like Aaron Hernandez, personal traits were too much to overcome. Other teams didn't think he was worth the gamble. Bill did. For what it's worth, I would have made the same move. I also have zero insight on the player as well. Not that he's anywhere near as horrible as Aaron is. Everyone who drafts has a long list of failures, you just don’t usually get multiple decades of drafts to look at. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 13, 2023 14:15:51 GMT -5
I'm disappointed and fine with the move. Jones and Jackson seem to be a bad influence on each other. Given the suspension for a game I was figuring it was more Jackson, maybe not. Imagine rebelling after his gun case just got dismissed a few months ago.
I also have no problem taking some risky players if the talent and round make it worth it. With Jack Jones that was a good risk in my book. Sometimes you just need to gamble on talent or you get a team full of guys like Myles Bryant lol.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Nov 13, 2023 14:16:29 GMT -5
It's just another fail unfortunately in a long list of failures for Bill. There was high upside, but just like Aaron Hernandez, personal traits were too much to overcome. Other teams didn't think he was worth the gamble. Bill did. For what it's worth, I would have made the same move. I also have zero insight on the player as well. Not that he's anywhere near as horrible as Aaron is. Everyone who drafts has a long list of failures, you just don’t usually get multiple decades of drafts to look at. That's fair, but unfortunately, Bill needed help and took a home run swing with Jack and just whiffed. I was hoping Jack and Christian could be a lock down 1 and 2. The talent is there, but not his head. Although he wasn't playing great either. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2023 14:42:47 GMT -5
Don’t forget a guy named Wilfork fell due to character concerns and he turned out to be one of the highest character players we’ve ever had around here.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,875
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Post by cdj on Nov 13, 2023 15:58:59 GMT -5
They got some good CB play for a year out of Jack, that alone probably makes him a hit in the 4th round
If he’s as cancerous as he seems you gotta cut bait like they did. Wish it didn’t have to be that way.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2023 16:23:36 GMT -5
One player benefiting may be Shaun Wade. I really liked him coming out of college and now he’s forced into action getting a bunch of snaps. Here are his grades per week this season. 65-70 is considered a over average  |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 13, 2023 16:59:36 GMT -5
You don't trade away chances to take elite players at position of need to chase a QB that carries a much lower grade and more risk. It's early, but you have elite graded top 5 talent at WR, TE and LT. That's likely the best WR and TE to come out in years. Take the safe pieces you need if you miss out on the QBs, then come back and take a QB. It's a large group of QB, a bunch will slide. Absolutely It's not ideal, but the quality of talent at major positions of need is something you don't pass up to overdraft a QB. I don't really understand Caleb Williams sliding, he had one bad game against a very good defense. He's not the reason USC keeps losing, it's horrible D is. He's still my #1 target, he just seems more polished than Maye. One thing I like with both top QBs, they lost their favorite targets and both came back and are having very good years again. Am I the only one worried about Bill chasing Cousins? Caleb Williams kind of seems like a nightmare: Looking for an equity stake in whatever team drafts him. His father talking about them exploring options when it comes to this years draft Running into the stands immediately after losing to cry with his mother vs. being with his teammates (idc that he cried, but running away from your team isn’t bad look) He seems like a lot to deal with… Plus, he’s pretty small, plays in a simple offense and I’ve heard people say his timing is poor, never delivering the ball on time. Doesn’t sound like much of a Patriot, but I have no legs to stand on when it comes to the scouting side, just stuff I’ve loosely heard. He can't have equity, they passed a rule. So it's a non-issue for me, unless you think his representatives even bringing it up is some horrible thing. Way I look at it, this is the new college football for elites to maximize their revenue, which now starts in College. What's the relationship with his father? Is he speaking for him or just speaking his mind? I need more information and I can't find it online. This could certainly be an issue, but very few players have ever pulled Eli Manning type crap and that was a much different family. I don't see the issue, tons of players cry, because he went to his mother? Unless there's a ton of this crap, it's absolutely nothing for me. Especially given his comments after games about his team. He's about as an elite guy that you get for me. True junior, 3 years starting experience with two teams. Yeah he's nothing like Brady or Jones, that's the whole point. It's going to be a much different offense and I'm all for it. Kinda hard to find another Brady with best timing throwing game in the history of the league. While he's not Patrick Mahomes, no one is, he has that same way of making it look easy. He's pro ready in my book, Maye as Red Shirt Sophomore is just more raw. I might change my mind when I breakdown tape, I've certainly have done that before and I've seen a lot more Williams than Maye. I do appreciate the information though. |
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,875
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Post by cdj on Nov 13, 2023 17:26:51 GMT -5
Imo the fact Caleb Williams is still playing games shows that he cares about his teammates, I’m not worried about that at all
He could just shut it down if he wanted to and he wouldn’t really take a hit
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2023 17:55:54 GMT -5
Caleb Williams kind of seems like a nightmare: Looking for an equity stake in whatever team drafts him. His father talking about them exploring options when it comes to this years draft Running into the stands immediately after losing to cry with his mother vs. being with his teammates (idc that he cried, but running away from your team isn’t bad look) He seems like a lot to deal with… Plus, he’s pretty small, plays in a simple offense and I’ve heard people say his timing is poor, never delivering the ball on time. Doesn’t sound like much of a Patriot, but I have no legs to stand on when it comes to the scouting side, just stuff I’ve loosely heard. He can't have equity, they passed a rule. So it's a non-issue for me, unless you think his representatives even bringing it up is some horrible thing. Way I look at it, this is the new college football for elites to maximize their revenue, which now starts in College. What's the relationship with his father? Is he speaking for him or just speaking his mind? I need more information and I can't find it online. This could certainly be an issue, but very few players have ever pulled Eli Manning type crap and that was a much different family. I don't see the issue, tons of players cry, because he went to his mother? Unless there's a ton of this crap, it's absolutely nothing for me. Especially given his comments after games about his team. He's about as an elite guy that you get for me. True junior, 3 years starting experience with two teams. Yeah he's nothing like Brady or Jones, that's the whole point. It's going to be a much different offense and I'm all for it. Kinda hard to find another Brady with best timing throwing game in the history of the league. While he's not Patrick Mahomes, no one is, he has that same way of making it look easy. He's pro ready in my book, Maye as Red Shirt Sophomore is just more raw. I might change my mind when I breakdown tape, I've certainly have done that before and I've seen a lot more Williams than Maye. I do appreciate the information though. I don’t know if any of these things are issues, but when they get stacked on top of each other it makes me wonder. I don’t want a statue back there, definitely someone who can extend plays is important in todays NFL. |
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