Patriots 2023 Season Thread

When Brady was playing, they typically scored 31 points a game. If they did that this year, our record would be 10-2-1, favored to win the SB again. That shows you how good our defense has been. BB has always been a great defensive coach. Nothing has changed there. His priority is always defense and that’s how he’s drafted. However, when it comes to drafting offensive players, it’s hit or miss. He didn’t even want to draft Brady, but was forced to by one of his coaches. He drafted Brady in the 6th round just to shut up the coach (Dick Rubien). That’s lucky drafting, not intelligent drafting. All this means is that the game has changed. All the rules favor the offense now and BB is old school. He’s too old to change his ways and his record is showing that. If Mayo is the next coach, they will still have a good defense. But, offense had better be a priority or we’ll just keep losing forever and forever.

Wow, when did I mention Trubisky? You are literally grouping me in with someone saying Trubisky is good starting QB, who literally compared him to Brady. Do you really think we are saying the same thing? If you think last game was a bad performance by a backup QB, that's on you, die on that hill. Major difference saying for example Brian Hoyer at his peak was a good backup QB/fringe starter versus saying he was a good starter. One is true, the other isn't 

Other teams tried to sign Zappe, I guess you missed that?

You forget about last year? There's a reason I didn't start dumping on Mac Jones till Onwenu moved to RT and our OL improved greatly. It was only then that you could truly judge him. You are judging Zappe in games where the OL got man handled, if you think that's fair then that's on you. What I said would happen, happened  and again the bar is good backup QB which in the NFL isn't a high bar. You have to agree with that no? Any team in the league would be ecstatic to have its backup QB after only one week of getting starter reps all year put up that performance down 3/4 of the team's best weapons. He went from zero chemistry with Henry and Juju to making huge plays. It was also a crazy short week with a Thursday game. OBR of 115.2, 67.9% completion percentage 3 TDs. Why? AY/A of 9.11. Yeah going deep lol.

We can't have a circular argument about Kraft because you simply haven't answered the question once. 

When you lose to a bad QB it's embarrassing. Yes, the Texans should be embarrassed. Sometimes everything clicks and they go off, but there's obviously a different feeling to losing to Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, or Tua than losing to Mitch Trubisky, Derek Carr, or Tommy Devito. No one is asking for firings in Texas because they've outperformed expectations despite having an embarrassing loss. It happens to everyone, even some of the best Patriots teams (Browns say hi) have had them. When you're good they usually just get called, "trap games".

There's nothing I find more annoying than, "he's better than you". OK, so the bar is being better than a 36 year old IT consultant? I think everyone understands that when they say Mitch Trubisky stinks, they're saying comparatively to the rest of the league. If you wouldn't want him as the QB of the team then you're acknowledging on some level he's not very good.

In regards to Bill vs Vrable/Mayo, here's the difference. Neither of those guys will be the GM which is what really did Bill in these last 4 years. Bill also had a terrible year coaching, though the defense has come around since their gauntlet of terrible QBs. I'm not completely sold on the defense. I thought the Chargers would have been a litmus test, but then they continued their woes against the Broncos. The Chargers also had an insane amount of bad drops. Still, they can beat up mediocre to bad teams better than anyone else right now which is a positive sign. I think the Chiefs and Bills will be another test. I'm aware the Dolphins had a lower ppg against the Patriots than their season average. Still, the main problem is he had a terrible year as both GM and coach, despite the defense turning it around.


They need a good coach. I don't care what side of the ball. If they're going with a defensive minded guy then they need to bring back McDaniels. I think he's perfect for the OC. He's really good at his job and he's been fired twice in embarrassing fashion. You won't need to worry about getting another guru at OC because there's no chance another team hires him as a HC for at least the next decade.

I certainly missed other teams tried to sign Zappe. When was this? He was freely available to every team that wanted him at the beginning of the season, but no one claimed him. I personally would have claimed him if I were another team who had questions at QB. I don't think Matt Corral would have been brought in if the Patriots believed in Zappe, let alone the waiving him. I'm just curious about when teams tried to sign him?

My point, again, is this: if they are in the NFL, and especially if they are playing, they DO NOT STINK. They are wildly successful human beings getting paid millions of dollars to play a game. They are WINNING. And what I said was: they (or Mitch, in this case) are more successful at what they do then YOU ARE AT WHAT YOU DO (not as you are at playing football, as some dismissive poster claimed I said upstream).

I mean is that so hard to digest? I find it ludicrous for Joe Schmo to say Joe Cool sux? To me it's beyond comical; it's depressing. Like, what are your bonafides to be passing judgement on these professionals?

That is not the same as suggesting not being critical -- that's part of sports fandom. But it's the callous spurious mean-spiritedness I find troubling. 

Plus, it's often proven wrong. Geno Smith was hooted out of NY (for you who are impressed by booing) -- what a bust! Now he's a top 10'ish QB in Seattle. Closer to home: Pat Chung cast off, "stunk" in Philly, resurrected in NE; Jim Plunkett, College Football HoF'er & #1 overall pick, beaten down and almost out in NE but (much later wins two SBs with Raiders; Ninko; Vrabel; Troy Brown -- cut EIGHT times; and the list goes on and on and on ...

I'll suggest sports performance is fluid. Some players are getting better, some are not; some are getting worse. Some performances are affected by health, by opponent (scheme or match-up), by coaching, by personal life -- the labels often stuck on players don't fit. 

Now, that is not to say Mitch = Tom Brady (nor did I suggest such earlier -- gosh, I give you guys plenty to disagree with but could you keep it real and not distort what I actually wrote to try to win your point? -- what I said was through Year 4 of their NFL careers their stats -- passer rating -- were not dissimilar). And this is fact. Not mentioned: Mitch was an effective ball carrier too. 

So I can on one hand say I would not want Mitch QB'ing my football team while on the other hand recognizing that he has sufficient talent (he is tall, strong, runs well, throws well) to beat my football team. He is also erratic and error-prone, which is why I would not want him as my QB. Plus, stories of locker room issues. But, still, he is a legitimate NFL talent.

Btw, Zappe has started four NFL games and won three of them with a passer rating over 100 in those three wins. He seems like a nice enough kid, earnest, a hard worker by most accounts, throws a good enough ball, moves around okay -- can we give him a few more starts before pronouncing HE STINKS? 

Btw, that Bill didn't want to draft TB story is garbage. 

Btw, cool stat: over the 20 year run of TB & BB the Patriots ranked 3rd overall in both Defensive EPA & ST EPA. I wonder how many SBs Tommy would have won were me middle of the pack or lower?

Btw, TB's Offense did not "average 31 PPG"

Years 300 - 400 (< 25 ppg): 5
Years 400 - 495 (< 31 ppg): 9
Years 496 - infinity (31 ppg +): 4

Left out Year 1 (Drew) & Matt Cassel's 2008 year. 

Tl; dr: Why so much hating on the players?

Btw, nice pod with Mel discussing his Top 25 with new draft guy (I guess McShay is O U T) Field Yates (who has Daniels > Maye, as of now):

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/first-draft/id304434112?i=1000638539111

McShay got purged in the giant layoffs this summer. No fanfare for him, but I tended to like Mel's analysis (not showmanship) better than McShay's anyway. But they have a cool crew now doing draft content including Yates. Not deep (i.e. they spend all their effort on 1st round like most outlets, but that's LAME), but at least they are being thoughtful and have their own opinions.

And I'm really thinking Daniels is gonna separate himself from the pack and go Top 6 (though I think there's minimal chance he goes above Maye).

Maybe not officially, but I wonder why he pulled his name out of the head coaching hat so quickly. Something had to have been said. He probably got a good raise whatever was said.

Not to digress too much but they also had previously hired The Draft Scout (Matt Miller) who provides a lot of good content.

Yes. Due to needing ESPN+ to watch Bruins, I've read some of him. Seems like he grinds.

I liked that Jackobi Meyers had a touchdown pass against the Chargers.

I’m not feeling well so I was looking forward to today’s NFL games and then I looked at the schedule and I’m not sure I could be less interested.

Wow, just like I said with Chargers, stop Mack, give your QB time and you can shred that D. Imagine watching that and thinking it's on Zappe. Raiders first game versus Chargers Mack 6 sacks, 2nd game zero sacks/zero QB hits. New coach assigned Mayer to neutralize him. Blame the OL and/or the OC for not stoping Mack! I'd agree if Zappe had all day to throw, that's not even close to what he had!

2nd half versus Steelers is Bill. That's his coaching style. Exactly like watching Vrabels Titans versus Brady in his last game in the playoffs. Run it, play it safe and run down the clock when you are up. Coaches and GMs are a pairing, GMs job is getting the best players for the coaches system. A HC is still highly involved in who teams sign and draft. You don't want what the Raiders GM did, but that shows you the dynamics of the relationship. Titans GM paid huge money for a RB because his coach was Vrabel. If you just want to hopefully get younger versions of Bill than sure guys like Vrabel and Mayo are good bets. If you really want to change from a defensive first team to an offensive one, you don't get those guys as head coaches! If your GM builds an offensive first team with those coaches, it's not going to work well, doesn't fit their coaching styles.

So much talk about our downfall is Bill the GM, I don't agree. I didn't hear anyone on here saying don't take Mac Jones. Heck even last year when Zappe outplayed Jones, everyone still wanted Jones as the starter. This team would have been good if Mac Jones would have played at even a good level. 2022 draft was very good, 2023 was about as good as it gets, that's fairly common for most GMs. No GMs nail the draft year after year.

Given we are almost certainly going after a rookie QB, bring in an offensive coach and that matches today's NFL. If Bill is gone, so are his sons most likely. So name Mayo DC, it's the next logical step to get him ready for being a HC, plus it keeps the D similar. Otherwise you're asking him to rebuild the coaching on both sides and that's certainly not ideal.