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Predicting The 2024 Opening Day Roster
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 31, 2023 11:48:08 GMT -5
I am probably in the minority here in that out of Mayer/Anthony/Teel/Bleis, I would prefer Anthony to be the one dealt if the return is good. I still give Mayer the edge because of the position, and having Bleis means we would still have a young high ceiling CF prospect in the system. Anthonys stock is also high right now while Mayer and Bleis are low, and id rather sell high. There is a not crazy chance that Anthony regresses next year, we have seen it happen many times before. Again, all depends on what we get back, but if I had to pick one to go in a package for a pitcher it would be Roman. Ideally we keep all though. This is indeed the rub: when their stock is high, nobody wants to see them dealt; when their stock is low, they suddenly lose their "untouchable" status...
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 31, 2023 12:01:30 GMT -5
New year’s update of my 2024 roster prediction with about half the offseason remaining. Once again, many thanks in advance for tearing this to shreds.
Red Sox 2024 Roster
Rotation Jordan Montgomery* (acquired via FA) +$25m AAV Bello Lucas Giolito (acquired via FA) +19m AAV Pivetta Crawford
Houck (40 - WooSox) Whitlock (40 - Woo) Winckowski (40 - Woo) Criswell (40 - Woo) Murphy* (40 - Woo) Walter* (40 - Woo) Gonzalez (40 - Sea Dogs) Perales (40 - Drive)
Bullpen Josh Hader* (acquired via FA) +$18.3m AAV Jansen Martin Robert Stephenson (acquired via FA) +$8m AAV Schreiber Bernardino* Mata Justin Slaten (acquired via Rule 5 trade)
Jacques* (40 - Woo) Kelly (40 - Woo) Isaiah Campbell (acquired from SEA for Luis Urias) (40 - Woo) Greg Weissert (acquired from MFY in Verdugo trade) (40 - Woo)
Batters C/2B - Wong 1B - Casas* 2B/LF - Vaughn Grissom (acquired from ATL for Chris Sale) -10m AAV 3B - Devers* SS/2B - Story CF/LF - Duran* RF/CF - Abreu* DH/LF - Yoshida* RF/DH - O’Neill (acquired from STL for Victor Santos and Nick Robertson)
Reserves C - McGuire* 2B - Valdez* LF/RF - Refsnyder 1B/RF/LF - Garrett Cooper (acquired via FA) +$3m AAV SS/2B/CF - Hamilton* (40 - Woo) CF/SS/2B - Rafaela (40 - Woo)
Notes Verdugone, Giolito benevenuto, O’Neill BSOHL, Grissom for Sale, and plenty of talent still available. It might take until the midnight hour to land the Boras client but I still like our chances with Montgomery, to consume innings alongside Giolito. I also like the idea of building a deep end in the bullpen by adding top-flight arms in Hader and Stephenson, who will share the load with Jansen and Martin to keep all of them fresh all season. In the rotation, I’m embracing the old saw that you can never have too much starting pitching. What I don’t embrace is compromising the development of guys like Houck, Whitlock, and Winckowski by shoehorning them into bullpen roles, making it near impossible to stretch them back out in an emergency. Instead of kicking them to the bullpen while promising them a starting slot “someday,” stretch them all out in Worcester to start the season, where they can all work on whatever they need to fix to become fully fledged starters (e.g. Houck get lefties out, Whitlock prove his durability). As we all know, injuries happen, especially to SPs, so the Worcester rotation of Houck, Whit, Winck, Murphy, Walter, Criswell and Fitts can compete to be the first “next man up,” probably by Mother’s Day (indeed, it’s easy to imagine that one of them might be needed even before camp breaks). They will also be competing to replace Giolito and Pivetta in the 2025 rotation. Do I expect the Sox to start the year with Houck, Whitlock, and Winckowski in the Worcester rotation? New regime, new thinking? Maybe “expect” is too strong a word. Either way, I’d like to see promising arms like theirs developed differently than the current MO of “you can get MLB hitters out but only a few at a time, so let’s throw a year-plus of your starting progress out the window and put you in the MLB bullpen.” I get that philosophy for a clear contender but not for a two-time-defending last-place team. If you’ve got this many homegrown SP candidates, you shouldn’t waste them. And who knows? Maybe a couple of them prove that they really don’t belong in a MLB rotation — I’d rather find that out by giving them all a fair shot at starting. Guys who fail the WooSox starter test can join the BOS bullpen in the second half.
In the bullpen, you start with a rock-solid back end of Hader, Jansen, Martin, and Stephenson and add Schreiber, Bernardino, Mata and Slaten. In the Worcester bullpen, you’ve got Weissert, Jacques, Campbell, and Kelly, all of whom have had tastes of the Show (plus Llovera and Weiss, if they clear waivers), plus Hagenman, Guerrero, and Benitez in non-roster reserve.
Much drama has already played out on the position player side, after the Grissom, Verdugo and O’Neill trades. Otherwise, the only other new outside addition I have is LHP mashing, slick-fielding 1B (and emergency OF) Cooper, an upgrade on Dalbec (who is DFAed or moved in this scenario - hardly knew ye). Rafaela starts the year in Worcester, working on his pitch recognition.
Lineups
[vs. RHP] CF Duran* DH Yoshida* 3B Devers* LF O’Neill 1B Casas* SS Story RF Abreu* 2B Valdez* C McGuire*
[vs. LHP] CF Duran* (maybe Rafaela in the second half?) LF Refsnyder 3B Devers* RF O’Neill 1B Casas* SS Story DH Yoshida* 2B Grissom C Wong
Is it a playoff roster? I think it’s competitive, mainly due to the pitching but the lineups are also pretty strong even if we don’t add another big bat. Ultimately, for the same money, I’ll take Hader over Teoscar. When Giolito, Jansen, Martin and Pivetta come off the payroll next year, maybe spend some of that windfall on a big bat or two. Valdez becomes pretty superfluous with Grissom’s arrival (and lack of L/R splits); I wouldn’t mind seeing Enmanuel’s spot taken by a latter-day Pokey/McDonald (e.g. Springfield/UConn product Nick Ahmed or Brandon Crawford).
By my reckoning, and based on Spotrac’s current numbers, this roster lands somewhere in the $240m neighborhood all told, which is in the tax but comfortably under the $277m draft-pick penalty, giving plenty of flexibility for the trade deadline.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Dec 31, 2023 12:10:56 GMT -5
I am probably in the minority here in that out of Mayer/Anthony/Teel/Bleis, I would prefer Anthony to be the one dealt if the return is good. I still give Mayer the edge because of the position, and having Bleis means we would still have a young high ceiling CF prospect in the system. Anthonys stock is also high right now while Mayer and Bleis are low, and id rather sell high. There is a not crazy chance that Anthony regresses next year, we have seen it happen many times before. Again, all depends on what we get back, but if I had to pick one to go in a package for a pitcher it would be Roman. Ideally we keep all though. This is indeed the rub: when their stock is high, nobody wants to see them dealt; when their stock is low, they suddenly lose their "untouchable" status... Buying low and selling high is so much easier said than done.
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Post by theburn on Dec 31, 2023 14:03:12 GMT -5
Yoshida doesn't have a no-trade clause, does he?
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 31, 2023 15:13:02 GMT -5
Yoshida doesn't have a no-trade clause, does he? There's an unwritten clause in his contract that prevents him from being traded to any team that is not interested in an undersized, borderline-DH-only hitter on the wrong side of 30 who has trouble logging 600 PAs in a season. His contract already has negative value. They would need to eat about half of it for any team to consider taking him.
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Post by carl4sox on Dec 31, 2023 16:28:44 GMT -5
I like Masa -- good hitter. No speed, no defense. Sox don't need him as a dh.
I wonder if part of the reason they signed up last year was because he is a friend and played with Yamamoto? Hoping to tip the free agent die in their favor. I suspect that was a Larry Luccino idea. But I 'm just joking.
Trade Masa to the Dodgers (where Yamamoto is). Eat much of the contract. Move Durran to LF, sign Adam Duvall for CF. O'Neill in RF. Resign JT for DH.
Sign Montie and Stephenson.
Done?
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Post by awalkinthepark on Dec 31, 2023 17:13:32 GMT -5
Masa slashed .316/.382/.492 with a 136 wRC+ in the first half last year, good for 16th best in baseball. Then he fell off in August and September just like a lot of the team. Steamer right now projects him for a .352 wOBA, which is the 29th best in baseball, just behind guys like Adley Rutschman, Paul Goldschmidt, Kyle Schwarber and Alex Bregman. I don't know how people think the current Red Sox team can afford to lose a .350 wOBA hitter.
It is insane how quickly fans sour on players. Baseball is a game where you are required to make long-term bets on players, bets on how they will age and perform going forward. You don't sign a guy to a contract for 5+ years and then change your mind 1 year later, you do everything you can to try and get that player to be the most productive version of himself. Constantly course correcting because a bet you placed maybe didn't pan out the way you want is an awful way to run a team, and I hope the Red Sox don't go down that path anytime soon. This is another example of why I call John Henry Schrödinger's Owner - he is simultaneously both a cheapskate who won't invest in the team and yet he has signed off on tons of bad contracts.
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Post by dirtywaterinla on Dec 31, 2023 17:25:34 GMT -5
I like Masa -- good hitter. No speed, no defense. Sox don't need him as a dh. I wonder if part of the reason they signed up last year was because he is a friend and played with Yamamoto? Hoping to tip the free agent die in their favor. I suspect that was a Larry Luccino idea. But I 'm just joking. Trade Masa to the Dodgers (where Yamamoto is). Eat much of the contract. Move Durran to LF, sign Adam Duvall for CF. O'Neill in RF. Resign JT for DH. Sign Montie and Stephenson. Done? Trading Masa after one year of his deal is an excellent way to convince every Japanese player to never sign w/ the Red Sox. Culturally, it would be an immense sign of disrespect. Also, signing someone just cause you think you’ll attract another player is a terrible way of doing business — highly unlikely this is the reason they signed Masa.
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Post by ghostofjuanpena on Dec 31, 2023 17:46:12 GMT -5
Let’s not trade Masa after a year , damages us on the Japanese Market and he’s gonna be better year two ; dh him regularly will help , he’s still a good hitter , needs to elevate more but he’s good , I’d hit him 7th, like a Troy Nixon type role in the order , lengthen your lineup
My Dream Lineup
CF 1. Abreu/Duran (Whorver isn’t traded) 2B 2. Grissom 3B 3. Devers LF 4. Hernandez 1B 5. Casas SS 6. Story DH 7. Yoshida RF 8. O’Neill C 9. Wong
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Post by carl4sox on Dec 31, 2023 17:49:44 GMT -5
As I said, I like him. I just wish he was a good defender. And that's a big drawback. If he can start hitting for some power, that would help a lot.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 31, 2023 18:07:11 GMT -5
Masa slashed .316/.382/.492 with a 136 wRC+ in the first half last year, good for 16th best in baseball. Then he fell off in August and September just like a lot of the team. Steamer right now projects him for a .352 wOBA, which is the 29th best in baseball, just behind guys like Adley Rutschman, Paul Goldschmidt, Kyle Schwarber and Alex Bregman. I don't know how people think the current Red Sox team can afford to lose a .350 wOBA hitter.
It is insane how quickly fans sour on players. Baseball is a game where you are required to make long-term bets on players, bets on how they will age and perform going forward. You don't sign a guy to a contract for 5+ years and then change your mind 1 year later, you do everything you can to try and get that player to be the most productive version of himself. Constantly course correcting because a bet you placed maybe didn't pan out the way you want is an awful way to run a team, and I hope the Red Sox don't go down that path anytime soon. This is another example of why I call John Henry Schrödinger's Owner - he is simultaneously both a cheapskate who won't invest in the team and yet he has signed off on tons of bad contracts. I sincerely hope that he shows us that he can be that first-half of 2023 player for a full season. (And the rest of the team falling off down the stretch has nothing to do with Masa.) I also think that he has negative trade value right now at 4/$72m, due to his lack of stamina last season, which is not exactly a secret. I hope he can come back in better shape in 2024 and power through the whole year. There's not much you can do at this point but hope that he's more productive going forward because you're not going to get anything back for him right now (and I agree that it would be a bad look to try to move him after one year of a five year deal). I'm not as down on his fielding as many are -- he'll never win a Gold Glove but he can play the position -- but it's fair to wonder if he has the stamina to play the field more than half the time.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Dec 31, 2023 18:16:29 GMT -5
Honestly the trade value of large contracts on your books is largely irrelevant to me. You sign players to help your team win games, not just because you think they are good value. Player evaluation has gotten much more accurate since the moneyball revolution 20 years ago, and so the free agent market has become much more efficient as a result. You used to be able to buy dollar bills for 50 cents but that is no longer the case. Most of the time you get what you pay for, and often times you get less than you pay for.
The Red Sox should be less concerned about value plays on the free agent market, and more concerned with making sure they have enough young cost-controlled players that it offsets any underwater contracts they might have.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 31, 2023 19:59:39 GMT -5
Wish we could get Woo from the Mariners, willing to eat Ray and his contract to help ease the prospect price
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Post by ghostofjuanpena on Dec 31, 2023 21:11:39 GMT -5
Kirby’s the dude I want from the Mariners but there gm wont even talk about them apparently, money problems in Seattle , dumb
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 31, 2023 21:40:29 GMT -5
Kirby’s the dude I want from the Mariners but there gm wont even talk about them apparently, money problems in Seattle , dumb I’d settle with Woo love his k and walk rates in the minors Jansen, Duran, Houck for Woo and Ray? Protects the prospects, get someone who could be a number 2-3 starter. Kind of offset Ray missing 80% of next year with Jansen in terms of salary. Then Ray falls off the books after the 2026 season so not all that much of a handcuff financially …. Trying to get in the creative spirit
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Post by ghostofjuanpena on Dec 31, 2023 21:44:48 GMT -5
I mean I’d do that trade if I was the Red Sox , ray’s gonna be mehhh this year coming back from Tommy John but it’s a good trade idea
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Post by dirtywaterinla on Jan 1, 2024 4:45:35 GMT -5
Kirby’s the dude I want from the Mariners but there gm wont even talk about them apparently, money problems in Seattle , dumb I’d settle with Woo love his k and walk rates in the minors Jansen, Duran, Houck for Woo and Ray? Protects the prospects, get someone who could be a number 2-3 starter. Kind of offset Ray missing 80% of next year with Jansen in terms of salary. Then Ray falls off the books after the 2026 season so not all that much of a handcuff financially …. Trying to get in the creative spirit Don’t hate this, but I think Seattle will need a bit more to say yes to something like this.
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Post by theburn on Jan 1, 2024 7:56:50 GMT -5
Yoshida for Ray straight up.
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Post by asm19 on Jan 1, 2024 9:33:24 GMT -5
Yoshida for Ray straight up. The Mariners expect Ray back from Tommy John in the second half next year - like with Sale and Paxton in recent seasons it’s unclear when that will be. He’s owed 23 mil next year at 32 years old, has an opt out clause after that, which if he declines would result in a remaining 2 year/50 mil deal from 2025-2026. In terms of next season roster predictions… In the last week, SoxProspects’ Ed Hand, Beyond the Monster’s Chris Henrique, MassLive’s Cotillo, Carrabis and Steve Perrault have all made implicit or explicit references to Kenley getting shopped & not being on next year’s team. I think it’s stupid because it appears financially motivated (because 1 year 16 million is SO expensive…). You could just as easily trade Jansen at the deadline if the team isn’t good - the Royals got Cole Ragans for 2 months of Chapman! - but I guess that’s the hand Breslow has been dealt. Kinda curious who they bring in if anyone to provide 1B depth. If something happens to Casas the backup options are like Dalbec and I guess Pablo Reyes in a pinch? In terms of guys who you could feasibly sign to be a backup or like a minor league deal with an Tapia-esque opt-out clause, probably looking at like Trey Mancini (who was with the Cubs with Breslow although was AWFUL last year), Jurickson Profar, Gio Urshela, Wil Myers, CJ Cron?
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Post by ghostofjuanpena on Jan 1, 2024 9:57:13 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s financial, your paying 16 million for an under 1 WAR reliever , he’s not dominant , they have other relievers who’ll be fine , put the money to different areas to help the team
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Post by bellhorndingers21 on Jan 1, 2024 10:05:48 GMT -5
The Ragans trade needs some context. He was more of a Royals player development success then some top 100 prospect they fleeced the Rangers out of. You'd expect a full year of Jansen would have more value rather than 2 months, especially if a team isn't keen on investing 100 million on Hader.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 1, 2024 10:50:38 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s financial, your paying 16 million for an under 1 WAR reliever , he’s not dominant , they have other relievers who’ll be fine , put the money to different areas to help the team It would be. Using WAR to measure a closer doesnt really work. What you have with Jansen is a proven closer with a long track record of being good or great which in the world of volatile relief pitching is no small feat. They can trade him and you hope whoever steps into the role becomes Koji 2013 or at least as good if not better than 2023 Jansen. I think there's a difference between being the closer where you are the guy and there's no safety net or being a setup man. Doesn't mean a Chris Martin can't step into the role and succeed. You just don't have the certainty of it until it happens. The Sox paid for certainty and reliability with Jansen. That doesn't mean that I'm against him being traded. I didn't think he was especially great, particularly after his 400th save game, although he did a good job keeping painful blown saves to a relative minimum even if it didn't always feel like it. I dont think he pitched well enough to say he's irreplaceable or anything like that. But when you look over the roster and its issues, closer is hardly at the top of the list of pressing issues when you lack top end starting pitching, have defensive question marks, only have 1 legit option for bullpen lefty and you have no idea if he can be as effective again, a right handed power bat is probably needed and hell they really don't have a legit option off the bench to back up 1st or 3b for a day if Casas or Devers need a breather unless the plan is to keep Dalbec as a bench piece. There are so many more pressing issues than merely having a good reliable experienced closer rather than a great one. If they're trading him the motivation is financial.
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Post by ghostofjuanpena on Jan 1, 2024 11:28:28 GMT -5
Is he gonna give you another 44 innings for 16 million , it’s dumb use of your finances , if this was Jansen from years back in his dodgers days yes but that’s not this guy anymore , he’s mehhhh, use the money in other ways if 225 is the max
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Post by asm19 on Jan 1, 2024 11:37:44 GMT -5
Reliever A (2023):
xERA - 3.16 XBA - .203 xSLG - .342 K rate - 27.7%
Reliever B (2023):
xERA - 3.18 xBA - .265 xSLG - .345 K rate - 23.1%
Reliever A is Kenley. Reliever B is… Chris Martin? Kenley was better at getting strikeouts, whereas Martin was below average at doing so. Where Martin excelled was limiting barrels/weak contact and never walking anyone. (And quite frankly probably being luckier than Jansen was when it came to defense.)
If you want to argue they have enough relief depth to withstand a Kenley trade (although I would note that Martin will be 38, & Whitlock has been hurt on and off for two years), sure. But he’s still good! His numbers under the hood are in a similar tier to say, Emmanuel Clase, Evan Phillips, Raisel Iglesias and Martin. Quibbling whether he’s worth 16 million dollars or a few million less than that for one year is just silly to me. But it sounds like he’s on his way out regardless, so let’s see what the return is when they do trade him.
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Post by ghostofjuanpena on Jan 1, 2024 11:44:07 GMT -5
I’m not saying he’s trash, only way they trade him is if they get a Robert Stephenson type on hand , Breslow knows that , he’s still a good reliever , let’s just not pretend he doesn’t make you a tad bit nervous when he’s in the 9th
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