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5/6-5/9 Red Sox vs. Twins Series Thread
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Post by Guidas on May 8, 2013 19:27:21 GMT -5
Well if you had Dempster starting tonight instead of last night Sox would be up 6-0.
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Post by Guidas on May 8, 2013 19:28:10 GMT -5
Well if you had Dempster starting tonight instead of last night Sox would be up 6-0.
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Post by charliezink16 on May 8, 2013 19:32:48 GMT -5
Holy crap, this is really getting out of hand. Which position player is going to pitch in this game? Jonathan Van Every
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 8, 2013 19:41:53 GMT -5
Ladies and gentlemen, Ryan Pressly.
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Post by Guidas on May 8, 2013 19:43:08 GMT -5
Dammit - they changed their pitcher and are throwing one of our old minor leaguers against us - he knows all our plays! And the fact that Napoli will chase out of the zone and Gomes can't hit righties!
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Post by jrffam05 on May 8, 2013 20:27:45 GMT -5
If this was MLB the show I would of plunked about 4 hitters by now.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 8, 2013 21:00:50 GMT -5
If this was MLB the show I would of plunked about 4 hitters by now. If this was MLB The Show I would have thrown a controller and quit without saving by now.
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Post by jrffam05 on May 8, 2013 21:07:53 GMT -5
If this was MLB the show I would of plunked about 4 hitters by now. If this was MLB The Show I would have thrown a controller and quit without saving by now. Haha. Yes I do that too. Maybe we have a chance now that the single a pitcher is out of the game.
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Post by Guidas on May 8, 2013 21:30:04 GMT -5
So what did we learn?
- Super prospect Webster's fastball is flat as a lake and if he can't control it at the edges of the zone it is very hittable by actual MLB players. Also, his overall control issues have not been fixed.
- Using Doubront out of the pen off an accelerated warm-up looked to be slightly less conducive to him throwing strikes as warming up as a starter (at least, if one goes by the tiny sample of his last start).
- Also not a great plan to "build his arm strength."
- Whoever came up with this genius plan gets a FAIL.
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Post by marrcus on May 8, 2013 21:59:11 GMT -5
I'm beginning to think that if they can play .500 ball this month it's only because May's the easiest month of the season. This is getting scary and where would they be without the guy who just ended his hitting streak?
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Post by grandsalami on May 8, 2013 22:05:19 GMT -5
David Ortiz ?@davidortiz 4m End of my hitting streak tonight the season stil going and l hope Dan shaugnessy is a happy man now... Not more 426 enjoy it?
I really want to punch shaugnessy in the nuts
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 8, 2013 22:38:44 GMT -5
So what did we learn? - Super prospect Webster's fastball is flat as a lake and if he can't control it at the edges of the zone it is very hittable by actual MLB players. Also, his overall control issues have not been fixed. - Using Doubront out of the pen off an accelerated warm-up looked to be slightly less conducive to him throwing strikes as warming up as a starter (at least, if one goes by the tiny sample of his last start).
- Also not a great plan to "build his arm strength."- Whoever came up with this genius plan gets a FAIL. In fairness, I don't think that what he had to do tonight was what anyone had in mind for Doubront when moving him to the pen. I do wonder about Webster's fastball, though. Where's this sinker I keep hearing about?
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Post by Don Caballero on May 8, 2013 23:05:15 GMT -5
Just got home and... Shit, what happened tonight?
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Post by mainesox on May 8, 2013 23:20:46 GMT -5
So what did we learn? - Super prospect Webster's fastball is flat as a lake and if he can't control it at the edges of the zone it is very hittable by actual MLB players. Also, his overall control issues have not been fixed. - Using Doubront out of the pen off an accelerated warm-up looked to be slightly less conducive to him throwing strikes as warming up as a starter (at least, if one goes by the tiny sample of his last start). - Also not a great plan to "build his arm strength." - Whoever came up with this genius plan gets a FAIL. We learned all of that from one start? I'm going to say the only thing we actually learned tonight is that tonight sucked. On Webster's fastball specifically, I'm going to call BS on that; literally every scouting report I've ever seen on Webster specifically mentions the outstanding movement his fastball has, so maybe it was flat tonight, but the idea that you can say that it is flat, and that it's "very" hittable unless he's painting the corners is ridiculous.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,842
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Post by wcp3 on May 9, 2013 7:28:59 GMT -5
I think all we learned is that we shouldn't make declarations based on one start. We've learned this lesson many a times, but a little reminder is never a bad thing.
Webster will (most likely) be a better pitcher than Doubront down the road, but Felix is more ready to handle major league lineups right now. Chances are we'll see both in the rotation at the same time either this or next season.
Felix just needs to trust his stuff more (kind of like Lester early in his career), rather than trying to strike everyone out. Hopefully he heard the message loud and clear tonight.
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Post by hammerhead on May 9, 2013 7:48:42 GMT -5
Does anyone know who they called up when they sent Webster down after the game? I can't find it anywhere.
Thank God that Morales is starting in rehab games, it may take some time for him to build up arm strength, but at this point he would be a nice addition to either the rotation or the bullpen.
I don't think you can make any assessments on Doubront or Webster based on last night's game. Webster simply had nothing. He could have been tight or nervous, or simply couldn't get a grip with the moisture in the air. One start is not enough to say he can't still be a dominant pitcher. A lot of even hall of fame caliber starters have an occasional night like this. He should take it as a learning experience and maybe he'll use it to his advantage.... Doubront was hardly prepared for what he faced and he did really take one for the team by giving them some innings .....as crappy as they were.
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Post by Guidas on May 9, 2013 7:56:43 GMT -5
I've not seen Webster in person, and the scouts know better than I ever will, but that fastball was flaaaaaaat. That may play a bit better at the very top of the zone (I'm a big believer in the high 94MPH+ FB strike being tougher to catch up with than the same pitch from the waist to the shins) than down low in general, but if that is his fastball, 95+ or not, he'll need to keep it on the black and under the hands.
And yes, it was a small sample, and I was being a bit facetious in my original post except for the part about the FAIL. I still didn't and don't get the logic behind this move, especially now that Farrell is saying Doubront will go back into the rotation for his regular turn. If the dude needs to build up arm strength then DL him and do it like they've done it in the past for others. Hell, I'd even be up to let Webster take another turn and face Tampa next week if that's what they think it will take to rest/rehab Doubront for 15 days. I just don't get the original move. It seemed very...weird.
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Post by sarasoxer on May 9, 2013 8:15:50 GMT -5
"The outlook wasn't brilliant"........Thayer
I don't think we can damn Webster on one outing especially when he has good minor league numbers. But, how much can we reasonably expect either? Soxprospects has our top MiLB pitching contingent projected as follows; Barnes a 2 or 3 rotation guy, Webster a 3 or, if he can't harness control issues, a relief guy and RDLR as a back-end starter/reliever Not a lot of sugarplums dancing there. I don't think Workman, 24 and in AA, is a top guy either. I think we have to hope that Ranaudo, much maligned last year but seemingly resurgent, is the real deal from our current crop. Of course, all that can change in a micro-second but right now 'we do look a little thin on top'.
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Post by jmei on May 9, 2013 8:20:59 GMT -5
Felix just needs to trust his stuff more (kind of like Lester early in his career), rather than trying to strike everyone out. Hopefully he heard the message loud and clear tonight. I mean, he "trusted his stuff" last night and got hit hard. Twelve hits, including four doubles and a number of other hard hit balls. The problem is Doubront doesn't have the fastball velocity or movement to get away with leaving it in the middle of the zone and he doesn't have the command to work the edges consistently. It's not a question of Doubront waking up one day and deciding to pound the zone, because if he does, he's going to get hit hard. Rather, improvement will come from his command improving enough to hit his spots, keep the fastball down, and change speeds to keep hitters off-balance. I see this stuff with hitters with bad plate discipline too-- they just need to "take more pitches" and "be less aggressive". The problem isn't that they insist on swinging at bad pitches, the problem is that they have bad pitch recognition and thus have to, to some degree, be guess hitters. Being able to track and differentiate pitches is a rare skill and requires great vision, elite hand-eye coordination, and quick wrists. I hate seeing quasi-moral judgments levied against players who lack those skills-- most aren't swinging because they're overconfident idiots who think they can hit everything, but because they have no idea what's coming. Yeah, there's an element of game theory involved and maybe you want to force pitchers to throw first-pitch strikes, but that strategy often leaves you down 0-2 and a sitting duck.
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Post by hammerhead on May 9, 2013 8:28:29 GMT -5
"The outlook wasn't brilliant"........Thayer I don't think we can damn Webster on one outing especially when he has good minor league numbers. But, how much can we reasonably expect either? Soxprospects has our top MiLB pitching contingent projected as follows; Barnes a 2 or 3 rotation guy, Webster a 3 or, if he can't harness control issues, a relief guy and RDLR as a back-end starter/reliever Not a lot of sugarplums dancing there. I don't think Workman, 24 and in AA, is a top guy either. I think we have to hope that Ranaudo, much maligned last year but seemingly resurgent, is the real deal from our current crop. Of course, all that can change in a micro-second but right now 'we do look a little thin on top'. That view is definitely a glass half-empty type projection. All of the scenario's you listed are worst case. I have heard Webster being called a possible #2 starter by most scouts and that's only because #1's are few and far between, Barnes as a #2 or #3 is a solid projection a #2 starter is very good. I have heard everything on RDLR from he could be a top flight starter to he's a closer in waiting. I have never though heard that he's a "back-end" guy. I think that starting pitching prospects are one of the strengths of the org, but they are still prospects.... One bad start by Webster shouldn't change things to all doom and gloom
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Post by sarasoxer on May 9, 2013 8:55:28 GMT -5
"The outlook wasn't brilliant"........Thayer I don't think we can damn Webster on one outing especially when he has good minor league numbers. But, how much can we reasonably expect either? Soxprospects has our top MiLB pitching contingent projected as follows; Barnes a 2 or 3 rotation guy, Webster a 3 or, if he can't harness control issues, a relief guy and RDLR as a back-end starter/reliever Not a lot of sugarplums dancing there. I don't think Workman, 24 and in AA, is a top guy either. I think we have to hope that Ranaudo, much maligned last year but seemingly resurgent, is the real deal from our current crop. Of course, all that can change in a micro-second but right now 'we do look a little thin on top'. That view is definitely a glass half-empty type projection. All of the scenario's you listed are worst case. I have heard Webster being called a possible #2 starter by most scouts and that's only because #1's are few and far between, Barnes as a #2 or #3 is a solid projection a #2 starter is very good. I have heard everything on RDLR from he could be a top flight starter to he's a closer in waiting. I have never though heard that he's a "back-end" guy. I think that starting pitching prospects are one of the strengths of the org, but they are still prospects.... One bad start by Webster shouldn't change things to all doom and gloom Well, I didn't mean to sound gloom & doom. Webster has had good minor league numbers as has RDLR. I just looked at the current Soxprospects profiles of our top three ranked pitchers who are in the top 5 or 6 of our prospects. The following are the representations currently made: Webster: "Projects as a middle-to-back-end starter at the major league level. May end up as a high leverage reliever if progress with fastball command stagnates." Barnes: "Second or third starter projection on a first division team." RDLR: "Ceiling of a number three starter on a first division team. Work on becoming more consistent with slider and refining fastball command are keys to reaching ceiling as a starter. Late-inning reliever projection without any improvement."
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Post by bluechip on May 9, 2013 8:58:01 GMT -5
"The outlook wasn't brilliant"........Thayer I don't think we can damn Webster on one outing especially when he has good minor league numbers. But, how much can we reasonably expect either? Soxprospects has our top MiLB pitching contingent projected as follows; Barnes a 2 or 3 rotation guy, Webster a 3 or, if he can't harness control issues, a relief guy and RDLR as a back-end starter/reliever Not a lot of sugarplums dancing there. I don't think Workman, 24 and in AA, is a top guy either. I think we have to hope that Ranaudo, much maligned last year but seemingly resurgent, is the real deal from our current crop. Of course, all that can change in a micro-second but right now 'we do look a little thin on top'. That view is definitely a glass half-empty type projection. All of the scenario's you listed are worst case. I have heard Webster being called a possible #2 starter by most scouts and that's only because #1's are few and far between, Barnes as a #2 or #3 is a solid projection a #2 starter is very good. I have heard everything on RDLR from he could be a top flight starter to he's a closer in waiting. I have never though heard that he's a "back-end" guy. I think that starting pitching prospects are one of the strengths of the org, but they are still prospects.... One bad start by Webster shouldn't change things to all doom and gloom I agree with this. Your whole faith in the system should not be shaken by 2 innings, even if those innings were admittedly as brutal as could possibly be imagined. With the fickle nature of pitching prospects, I still firmly believe that it is best to have several prospects with upside.
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Post by hammerhead on May 9, 2013 9:07:58 GMT -5
Another thing about Webster that isn't being mentioned much is that his learning curve may be quite steep because he was a position player who was only converted to a starter fairly recently. He may have a few more bumps in the road, but the fact that he's even pitching big league innings at this point says a lot. When all is said and done , and he gains enough baseball experience to adequately harness his potential it should make a world of difference. He certainly has the raw talent and plus pitches to succeed in the big leagues, by all accounts he has a solid make-up as well. All he really needs is some trials and tribulations to learn from and this will be the first major league one. How he handles this shalacking will show quite a bit about what kind of prospect he really is.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,842
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Post by wcp3 on May 9, 2013 9:59:56 GMT -5
Felix just needs to trust his stuff more (kind of like Lester early in his career), rather than trying to strike everyone out. Hopefully he heard the message loud and clear tonight. I mean, he "trusted his stuff" last night and got hit hard. Twelve hits, including four doubles and a number of other hard hit balls. The problem is Doubront doesn't have the fastball velocity or movement to get away with leaving it in the middle of the zone and he doesn't have the command to work the edges consistently. It's not a question of Doubront waking up one day and deciding to pound the zone, because if he does, he's going to get hit hard. Rather, improvement will come from his command improving enough to hit his spots, keep the fastball down, and change speeds to keep hitters off-balance. I don't believe anyone in the majors can get away with leaving it in the middle of the zone... I'm not advocating that he challenge hitters consistently, but his nibbling has reached Daisuke level. If he gets his velocity back, his stuff is good enough where he can get away with throwing pitches slightly more over the plate than he wants to. (Note: I didn't see him pitch at all last night, so I can't comment on his performance)
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Post by jmei on May 9, 2013 10:32:00 GMT -5
I'm not advocating that he challenge hitters consistently, but his nibbling has reached Daisuke level. If he gets his velocity back, his stuff is good enough where he can get away with throwing pitches slightly more over the plate than he wants to. I don't think it is good enough. He has some deception in his delivery and some natural "rise" in his four-seamer but his fastball is straight as an arrow and has no more than average velocity. His fastball has been below-average per both Fangraphs' pitch values (-0.74/100) and Pitch f/x pitch values (-1.03/100), and his swinging strike percentage (7.4% this year, 8.7% career) is actually below-average (9.2%). Regardless, Doubront's command has never been very good (above AA, he's never had a BB/9 below 3), and even if he wanted to, I'm not sure he has the physical ability to spot the fastball consistently over the plate. Despite a bad career ERA (5.08), Doubront has put up some very solid peripherals (4.17 FIP, 3.86 xFIP). I think it's far too early to relegate him to the bullpen, but I do think there's a very good chance this is as good as he's going to get-- a league-average arm who struggles with pitch counts and consistency. That's still valuable in the middle or end of your rotation, but I do think he's just about reached his ceiling.
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