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4/23-4/25 Red Sox @ Guardians Series Thread
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Apr 25, 2024 11:59:08 GMT -5
I'm even madder than I was yesterday and I apologize in advance for any snippiness... Fire Cora. Preferably into the sun, but I'd settle for a trash can in the city of Houston. I get the frustration w/ Cora’s about face, but if he wasn’t the manager this team would be at best a 10-15 team at this point… I’m always curious where this line of thinking comes from. What exactly has Cora done to improve this team by 4 wins? Legitimately curious as to what he has done to make that happen
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Post by melvinhoggs on Apr 25, 2024 11:59:14 GMT -5
Nobody's arguing playing Yoshida over Devers at DH.
I'm pretty low on Yoshida, but this is a lineup with Reyes, Dalbec and Hamilton in it – it would be hard to be that low on Yoshida that you wouldn't find a way to get him in the lineup over those guys.
Especially on a day where O'Neill is sitting AND it's a RH pitcher for CLE.
These three aren't terribly relevant to me in the why is Yoshida not playing equation as they are all playing IF today. Yoshida would not be replacing any of them at 1st/3rd/2nd. I guess you could maybe play Ref at 1st but it seems like they don't want to do that right now or they'd do it. I would have Yoshida in there over Refsnyder since I don't think the world would implode if he plays LF though. There's a lot of people repeating the same thing (that I agree with, about Refsnyder at 1B) in this thread so I don't want to add too much more to it, but I'd also say that "seems like they don't want to do that right now or they'd do it" is an unsatisfying answer and counter to how they've actually operated this season.
For example, they let the Hamilton at SS experiment go on for too long until they finally gave in. I'd like them to do the same and throw in the towel on letting both Reyes and Hamilton exist in the lineup while Yoshida sits. For as long as Devers is DH (which hopefully shouldn't be long), Ref should be at 1B with Valdez/Reyes playing platoon matchups at 2B.
And again, this is coming from someone who thinks Yoshida is basically a league-average no-power DH – and I still want him in there.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 25, 2024 11:59:41 GMT -5
I continue to maintain that none of this is that weird once you accept that they're not going to play him in the field
Nobody would have thought anything of Heineman getting to play his one day in the bigs except for what happened after But it's such weird dogmatism if this is the case - for a team that, as many have noted, has not exactly been averse to weird defensive alignments in the past.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Apr 25, 2024 12:00:03 GMT -5
I'm even madder than I was yesterday and I apologize in advance for any snippiness... Fire Cora. Preferably into the sun, but I'd settle for a trash can in the city of Houston. I get the frustration w/ Cora’s about face, but if he wasn’t the manager this team would be at best a 10-15 team at this point… and how are you getting to that conclusion ?
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,543
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Post by asm18 on Apr 25, 2024 12:00:35 GMT -5
Could they be close to trading Masa and they are keeping him out of the lineup so he doesn’t get hurt? It’s the only thing that makes any sense at this point. I can’t imagine a trade partner unless we are eating a big chunk of his salary which is not this ownerships MO! Time will tell! How is eating salary not in ownerships MO? They just ate all of Sale's salary to bring back Grissom. I mean the difference there is it was the final year of Sale's deal, and getting Grissom meant a league minimum second baseman. Yoshida is still owed about $54 mil after this year. It would seem very to weird to unload him 1) in April, and 2) this early in the deal when they've stated that last season was supposed to be an adjustment year for him coming over from Japan. But at this point there is a lot opaque about this situation.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Apr 25, 2024 12:01:25 GMT -5
I continue to maintain that none of this is that weird once you accept that they're not going to play him in the field
Nobody would have thought anything of Heineman getting to play his one day in the bigs except for what happened after But it's such weird dogmatism if this is the case - for a team that, as many have noted, has not exactly been averse to weird defensive alignments in the past. Connor Wong has played as much 2B this year as Yoshida has played the field. That’s ridiculous
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Post by incandenza on Apr 25, 2024 12:01:51 GMT -5
I still find this logic odd of not starting Ref @ 1B especially seeing Cora threw Wong over to 1B late in the game on Tuesday despite never playing there in his professional career. Couldn't really say, Ref hasn't played anywhere but OF for the Sox though. It would seem they don't believe he can play IF anymore since he hasn't done it since 2020 as far as I can tell and that was 20 innings worth. Perhaps they ran him through some IF/1st base reps in practice and figured nope this won't work at all, that'd be my guess as to what happened.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Apr 25, 2024 12:02:22 GMT -5
I'm even madder than I was yesterday and I apologize in advance for any snippiness... Fire Cora. Preferably into the sun, but I'd settle for a trash can in the city of Houston. I get the frustration w/ Cora’s about face, but if he wasn’t the manager this team would be at best a 10-15 team at this point… Uhh.. based on what, exactly?
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Post by ematz1423 on Apr 25, 2024 12:02:28 GMT -5
I continue to maintain that none of this is that weird once you accept that they're not going to play him in the field
Nobody would have thought anything of Heineman getting to play his one day in the bigs except for what happened after This is probably the answer that makes the most sense. They don't have any interest in him playing LF, even if I don't really understand why since for one game here and there it doesn't feel like it's going to be that big a detriment. To me it would seem the defensive downgrade of Yoshida Vs Ref would be outweighed by Yoshida's bat vs a righty but apparently not to Cora.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,543
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Post by asm18 on Apr 25, 2024 12:03:15 GMT -5
I get the frustration w/ Cora’s about face, but if he wasn’t the manager this team would be at best a 10-15 team at this point… Uhh.. based on what, exactly? Have you looked at the injury report
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Apr 25, 2024 12:04:48 GMT -5
Uhh.. based on what, exactly? Have you looked at the injury report This proves nothing. It’s very clear that if any coach has actually made this team capable of winning despite their injuries, it’s Andrew Bailey
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Apr 25, 2024 12:05:44 GMT -5
Uhh.. based on what, exactly? Have you looked at the injury report Yes. And? That doesn't show anything to prove that Cora is doing anything special to keep this team afloat. Honestly, my take is that there are small handfuls of exceptionally great and exceptionally poor managers, and then a lot of guys in the middle that probably don't have as big an impact as most think in either direction. Cora is for sure in that last tier to me, and pointing at the IL as any kind of "evidence" he's doing anything special is pretty ridiculous. Now, if you want to argue that this team would be 10-15 without Andrew Bailey, I'd probably be willing to listen...
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Post by ematz1423 on Apr 25, 2024 12:06:52 GMT -5
Couldn't really say, Ref hasn't played anywhere but OF for the Sox though. It would seem they don't believe he can play IF anymore since he hasn't done it since 2020 as far as I can tell and that was 20 innings worth. Perhaps they ran him through some IF/1st base reps in practice and figured nope this won't work at all, that'd be my guess as to what happened. Yes, I knew that Cora said that but maybe they thought twice about it after running him through some drills? Or perhaps it is just as julyanmorley surmised and they've decided that baring an emergency Yoshida isn't playing in the OF. I think we should find something out whenever Devers is ready to go back to 3rd base.
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Post by puzzler on Apr 25, 2024 12:10:00 GMT -5
Uhh.. based on what, exactly? Have you looked at the injury report Yeah, I'm no Cora fan; but I don't know how you can look at the current situation and the last month and come to the conclusion that Cora hasn't had any effect on guiding this team to a winning record unless you have a strong bias against him. Is he the only guy who could have? No, but he still has.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 25, 2024 12:10:30 GMT -5
So if you think Cora is worth 4 wins in 25 games he'd be a 26 wins-above-replacement-manager over a season. My instinct says that the best managers are maaaybe worth 2-3 wins a year. The open market doesn't even value them that highly though.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 25, 2024 12:12:00 GMT -5
I'm even madder than I was yesterday and I apologize in advance for any snippiness... Fire Cora. Preferably into the sun, but I'd settle for a trash can in the city of Houston. I get the frustration w/ Cora’s about face, but if he wasn’t the manager this team would be at best a 10-15 team at this point… This recent episode is just a very heavy straw on top of a long broken-backed camel. What has he done to get those extra wins? Consistently atrocious lineups and personnel decisions. Head-scratching bullpen management, only mitigated by the incredible starting pitching performances thus far this year. A shocking lack of fundamentals among his players, and not just limited to the young players... Are we putting like 30 wins a year on vibes and people skills?
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Post by puzzler on Apr 25, 2024 12:12:16 GMT -5
Yes, I knew that Cora said that but maybe they thought twice about it after running him through some drills? Or perhaps it is just as julyanmorley surmised and they've decided that baring an emergency Yoshida isn't playing in the OF. I think we should find something out whenever Devers is ready to go back to 3rd base. Watching Devers run yesterday, he shouldn't be playing the field pretty much at all. He was laboring even though he clearly was pushing himself to score in the first inning. Long term, this could end up being a huge break for the Red Sox because there could be 'early' justification for making him a full time DH.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Apr 25, 2024 12:13:18 GMT -5
Have you looked at the injury report Yeah, I'm no Cora fan; but I don't know how you can look at the current situation and the last month and come to the conclusion that Cora hasn't had any effect on guiding this team to a winning record unless you have a strong bias against him. Is he the only guy who could have? No, but he still has. But how has he done that? This is what no one ever seems to answer when defending Cora, it’s all just vibes. Because he’s here, they’re winning. But when they’re bad it’s the fault of someone else. Best pitching staff in baseball and winning despite bad defense and poor offense? That has to be Cora, not the highly regarded pitching coach they just brought in.. come on
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,543
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Post by asm18 on Apr 25, 2024 12:14:09 GMT -5
Have you looked at the injury report Yes. And? That doesn't show anything to prove that Cora is doing anything special to keep this team afloat. Honestly, my take is that there are small handfuls of exceptionally great and exceptionally poor managers, and then a lot of guys in the middle that probably don't have as big an impact as most think in either direction. Cora is for sure in that last tier to me, and pointing at the IL as any kind of "evidence" he's doing anything special is pretty ridiculous. Now, if you want to argue that this team would be 10-15 without Andrew Bailey, I'd probably be willing to listen... Do you think Aaron Boone would have the Yankees at 14-11 if Anthony Volpe's shoulder exploded during the first week, Juan Soto's rib fractured, Aaron Judge was battling injuries and barely played, Alex Verdugo had a concussion, and they lost 3 or 4 of their starters in addition to Gerrit Cole? What are we talking about folks lol
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Post by puzzler on Apr 25, 2024 12:14:15 GMT -5
So if you think Cora is worth 4 wins in 25 games he'd be a 26 wins-above-replacement-manager over a season. My instinct says that the best managers are maaaybe worth 2-3 wins a year. The open market doesn't even value them that highly though. On average, I'd say you're right - but given all of the injuries this early, I'm inclined to give him 2 wins through 25 games. Of course, I'd probably take of at least a win back to incompetence as well.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Apr 25, 2024 12:16:25 GMT -5
Yes. And? That doesn't show anything to prove that Cora is doing anything special to keep this team afloat. Honestly, my take is that there are small handfuls of exceptionally great and exceptionally poor managers, and then a lot of guys in the middle that probably don't have as big an impact as most think in either direction. Cora is for sure in that last tier to me, and pointing at the IL as any kind of "evidence" he's doing anything special is pretty ridiculous. Now, if you want to argue that this team would be 10-15 without Andrew Bailey, I'd probably be willing to listen... Do you think Aaron Boone would have the Yankees at 14-11 if Anthony Volpe's shoulder exploded during the first week, Juan Soto's rib fractured, Aaron Judge was battling injuries and barely played, Alex Verdugo had a concussion, and they lost 3 or 4 of their starters in addition to Gerrit Cole? What are we talking about folks lol If they had, by far, the best starting pitching staff in baseball, yes. It’s entirely probable and likely. This Alex Cora propaganda is legitimately insane. Can you point to a single thing that has directly led Cora to providing us 4-5 extra wins? Or is it just purely vibes?
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 25, 2024 12:17:45 GMT -5
Yes, I knew that Cora said that but maybe they thought twice about it after running him through some drills? Or perhaps it is just as julyanmorley surmised and they've decided that baring an emergency Yoshida isn't playing in the OF. I think we should find something out whenever Devers is ready to go back to 3rd base. Watching Devers run yesterday, he shouldn't be playing the field pretty much at all. He was laboring even though he clearly was pushing himself to score in the first inning. Long term, this could end up being a huge break for the Red Sox because there could be 'early' justification for making him a full time DH. This roster as currently assembled, and as it projects to be assembled going forward, requires Devers at 3B. There are too many good outfielders and Masa is a better fit at DH. They could trade players to avoid this logjam, but I don't see why they should be in a hurry to move a 27 y/o player in the first year of a 10-year, $313.5 million extension to DH full time. If the Sox didn't think he could play 3B for a while, there is no way to justify extending him for that kind of money.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,543
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Post by asm18 on Apr 25, 2024 12:18:54 GMT -5
Do you think Aaron Boone would have the Yankees at 14-11 if Anthony Volpe's shoulder exploded during the first week, Juan Soto's rib fractured, Aaron Judge was battling injuries and barely played, Alex Verdugo had a concussion, and they lost 3 or 4 of their starters in addition to Gerrit Cole? What are we talking about folks lol If they had, by far, the best starting pitching staff in baseball, yes. It’s entirely probable and likely. This Alex Cora propaganda is legitimately insane.
Can you point to a single thing that has directly Cora to providing us 4-5 extra wins? Or is it just purely vibes? They're winning games with like half a Triple-A team out there... If the season ended today they'd be in the playoffs lol! Relax folks
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Post by strike23 on Apr 25, 2024 12:19:23 GMT -5
I get that devers is a good bat but if his knee isn't good enough to field he shouldn't be running the bases, sit him until he's healthy. To someone saying nobody would call for yoshida over devers at DH that is explicitly what I'm calling for. Devers can PH and Hamilton can run for him late in a game if it's close and we need someone.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Apr 25, 2024 12:19:47 GMT -5
If they had, by far, the best starting pitching staff in baseball, yes. It’s entirely probable and likely. This Alex Cora propaganda is legitimately insane.
Can you point to a single thing that has directly Cora to providing us 4-5 extra wins? Or is it just purely vibes? They're winning games with like half a Triple-A team out there... If the season ended today they'd be in the playoffs lol! Relax folks So, nothing to point at? Meanwhile, Andrew Bailey has clearly had a massive effect on the pitching staff is also clearly the reason that the team is winning games
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