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Brentz
Oct 18, 2012 21:57:04 GMT -5
Post by sarasoxer on Oct 18, 2012 21:57:04 GMT -5
Is it me our has the general quality of posts made since the 2011 collapse have gotten much worse. Using RBI's as signifigant player evaluating tool, taking the position that being pessimistic is equal to being realistic, defending Delmon Young, arguing that Bryce Brentz is somehow a blue-chip prospects, that Ellsburry could net us Andrus straighjt up , etc, etc.. I miss the days of the most irrational posts just had to do with arguing intagible characteristics of Ryan Lavarnway. And to compare Brentz to Jensen.. WTF. Over his carreer Jensen walked at a higher clip than he he struck out. I can not think of a worse comp. sdiaz, I had a bit of a hard time reading your post due to the quality of grammar and spelling. I don't know of anyone who has compared Brentz to Jensen in terms of production. I did offer that, to me, Brentz looked similar in stature to Jensen at the plate. Brentz is very solidly built...almost stocky and about the same height. I think comments in general have expressed the hope that Brentz could become more selective, lay off low and away breaking balls, reduce his strikeouts and produce more walks. When Kalish came up, there was a lot of hype. I have seen both Brentz and Kalish in AA. While I am certainly no scout, I have a stronger opinion on Brentz. |
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Brentz
Oct 18, 2012 23:05:09 GMT -5
Post by Don Caballero on Oct 18, 2012 23:05:09 GMT -5
I have been saying Kalish is vastly overrated and has a fugly swing for quite some time. I've never watched Brentz that closely, but I doubt he isn't a better hitting prospect.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,907
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Brentz
Oct 18, 2012 23:29:07 GMT -5
Post by nomar on Oct 18, 2012 23:29:07 GMT -5
I have been saying Kalish is vastly overrated and has a fugly swing for quite some time. I've never watched Brentz that closely, but I doubt he isn't a better hitting prospect. Yeah everyone with an ugly swing is bad. Screw his tools, he doesnt swing like Ken Griffey so hes definitely bad. |
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Brentz
Oct 19, 2012 9:10:08 GMT -5
Post by Don Caballero on Oct 19, 2012 9:10:08 GMT -5
I have been saying Kalish is vastly overrated and has a fugly swing for quite some time. I've never watched Brentz that closely, but I doubt he isn't a better hitting prospect. Yeah everyone with an ugly swing is bad. Screw his tools, he doesnt swing like Ken Griffey so hes definitely bad. Uh, yes, people with bad swings tend to be bad hitters (and don't use Youk, he has a bad stance). |
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,907
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Brentz
Oct 19, 2012 9:46:25 GMT -5
Post by nomar on Oct 19, 2012 9:46:25 GMT -5
Yeah everyone with an ugly swing is bad. Screw his tools, he doesnt swing like Ken Griffey so hes definitely bad. Uh, yes, people with bad swings tend to be bad hitters (and don't use Youk, he has a bad stance). Theres so many people with ugly swings who hit well. Hunter Pence, Aaron Rowand, Ichiro, Eckstein, Luis Castillo, Shef's swing got criticism though it worked fine for him, Aoki, Damon, and Kendall. |
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Brentz
Oct 19, 2012 16:51:22 GMT -5
Post by Don Caballero on Oct 19, 2012 16:51:22 GMT -5
Uh, yes, people with bad swings tend to be bad hitters (and don't use Youk, he has a bad stance). Theres so many people with ugly swings who hit well. Hunter Pence, Aaron Rowand, Ichiro, Eckstein, Luis Castillo, Shef's swing got criticism though it worked fine for him, Aoki, Damon, and Kendall. Sheff is on the Youk side of an ugly stance instead of swing. Ichiro, Damon and Kendall never had anything alarming with their swings. The others are either the exceptions or didn't really "hit well". |
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Brentz
Oct 20, 2012 16:48:43 GMT -5
Post by fdrnewdeal on Oct 20, 2012 16:48:43 GMT -5
Jackie Jensen at 23, was seen as the heir apparent to Joe DiMaggio. His college career included being an All-American running back and OF/P. He was an absurd athlete.
Bryce Brentz at 23 is an intriguing prospect who projects to have above average power, who for a a corner outfielder, is pretty athletic.
If you're going to say that Brentz looks like "Jensen," people are going to invariably look at the comparison. In this case, just a cursory glance is all it takes to abandon this line of reasoning. Beyond listed height, and listed weight, there ain't much there.
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Brentz
Oct 20, 2012 17:50:03 GMT -5
Post by sarasoxer on Oct 20, 2012 17:50:03 GMT -5
Jackie Jensen at 23, was seen as the heir apparent to Joe DiMaggio. His college career included being an All-American running back and OF/P. He was an absurd athlete. Bryce Brentz at 23 is an intriguing prospect who projects to have above average power, who for a a corner outfielder, is pretty athletic. If you're going to say that Brentz looks like "Jensen," people are going to invariably look at the comparison. In this case, just a cursory glance is all it takes to abandon this line of reasoning. Beyond listed height, and listed weight, there ain't much there. Man, you are taking this all too seriously if I may say so. No one has said (including me) that Brentz is the next Jensen. Wouldn't it be nice, if true? Your first paragraph is right on. Brentz has a lot of power and has hit 47 hrs in 2 years... not too shabby. He has wide, powerful, lumberjack hands ( I have shaken them). He is very modest, seemingly self aware and works hard. I see him as potentially an upgrade on Cody Ross talent wise. Hey, I'll take Cody in left and Brentz in right and maybe Jackie in center. That would be acceptable if we have good pitching, front and back. |
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Brentz
Oct 20, 2012 18:15:19 GMT -5
Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 20, 2012 18:15:19 GMT -5
Jackie Jensen at 23, was seen as the heir apparent to Joe DiMaggio. His college career included being an All-American running back and OF/P. He was an absurd athlete. Bryce Brentz at 23 is an intriguing prospect who projects to have above average power, who for a a corner outfielder, is pretty athletic. If you're going to say that Brentz looks like "Jensen," people are going to invariably look at the comparison. In this case, just a cursory glance is all it takes to abandon this line of reasoning. Beyond listed height, and listed weight, there ain't much there. Sarasoxer DID NOT say Brentz was the next Jackie Jensen!! Please get off of it. He HAS seen Brentz. I have also. Have you ever seen him play? He should be a solid major leaguer. |
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Brentz
Oct 20, 2012 18:49:02 GMT -5
Post by jioh on Oct 20, 2012 18:49:02 GMT -5
[... Brentz has a lot of power and has hit 47 hrs in 2 years... not too shabby. He has wide, powerful, lumberjack hands ( I have shaken them). ... Well, if he has big strong hands that removes all the doubt we have about his being sub-par on making contact and working the count and having only mediocre stats for his age. He'll surely go into the Hall of Fame alongside that great 3b Wilton "Hitter's Hands" Veras. |
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 1:19:20 GMT -5
Post by sdiaz1 on Oct 21, 2012 1:19:20 GMT -5
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 1:30:22 GMT -5
Post by fdrnewdeal on Oct 21, 2012 1:30:22 GMT -5
Respectfully, when someone says, "player x looks like player y" they are making a comparison. Now if that observation is wholly without merit and intended to be ignored, I've got to ask, why the hell bring it up in the first place?
I have not seen Brentz play. I am also not a scout.... so if I had, it would likely not matter. The guy is a good prospect, I don't think anyone is arguing against that... but to say "You're taking this too seriously, the guy should be a solid big leaguer (I've seen him play) is kind of maddening.
You know how many prospects are likely solid big leaguers? The answer isn't that many...
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 4:22:51 GMT -5
Post by remember04 on Oct 21, 2012 4:22:51 GMT -5
This just in, people on the internet can take what you say the wrong way. Shocking.
I hate it when that happens to me.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 7:40:02 GMT -5
Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 21, 2012 7:40:02 GMT -5
Respectfully, when someone says, "player x looks like player y" they are making a comparison. Now if that observation is wholly without merit and intended to be ignored, I've got to ask, why the hell bring it up in the first place? I have not seen Brentz play. I am also not a scout.... so if I had, it would likely not matter. The guy is a good prospect, I don't think anyone is arguing against that... but to say "You're taking this too seriously, the guy should be a solid big leaguer (I've seen him play) is kind of maddening. You know how many prospects are likely solid big leaguers? The answer isn't that many... To be quite frank, I find your continuing response quite maddening! Sounds like you have you HAVE NOT SEEN HIM PLAY. |
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 9:37:00 GMT -5
Post by jmei on Oct 21, 2012 9:37:00 GMT -5
Steve, to get this going in the right direction, what do you see in Brentz that sets him apart from other prospects you've seen? A lot of folks have commented that he stands out in the same way WMB stands out-- what specific traits do they have in common?
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 9:48:03 GMT -5
Post by soxfan06 on Oct 21, 2012 9:48:03 GMT -5
I think Brentz pulls a Middlebrooks and earns a spot next year.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 12:12:55 GMT -5
Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 21, 2012 12:12:55 GMT -5
Steve, to get this going in the right direction, what do you see in Brentz that sets him apart from other prospects you've seen? A lot of folks have commented that he stands out in the same way WMB stands out-- what specific traits do they have in common? You are right jmei. Brentz has solid power from left to right center. I think he will be a solid contributor like Cody Ross. I doubt he will be anymore than Cody's best year, but I may be wrong. His power to right center is legit. I see him as a 20 to 25 homer guy with an OBP of .320 to .335. He has a strong arm and OK range. He probably will be eventually OK in right in Fenway. I do not see an all-star, but hopefully I am wrong. |
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 15:18:46 GMT -5
Post by fdrnewdeal on Oct 21, 2012 15:18:46 GMT -5
Respectfully, when someone says, "player x looks like player y" they are making a comparison. Now if that observation is wholly without merit and intended to be ignored, I've got to ask, why the hell bring it up in the first place? I have not seen Brentz play. I am also not a scout.... so if I had, it would likely not matter. The guy is a good prospect, I don't think anyone is arguing against that... but to say "You're taking this too seriously, the guy should be a solid big leaguer (I've seen him play) is kind of maddening. You know how many prospects are likely solid big leaguers? The answer isn't that many... To be quite frank, I find your continuing response quite maddening! Sounds like you have you HAVE NOT SEEN HIM PLAY. But does he have an attractive girlfriend? A lot of people who get paid to evaluate baseball for a living saw Ruben Rivera play (he was a more highly regarded prospect than Bryce Brentz is currently) and thought he'd be a perennial all-star. You'd think anyone who actually follows minor leagues would have the humility to admit that we get this stuff wrong.... a lot. |
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 17:17:28 GMT -5
Post by sarasoxer on Oct 21, 2012 17:17:28 GMT -5
To be quite frank, I find your continuing response quite maddening! Sounds like you have you HAVE NOT SEEN HIM PLAY. You'd think anyone who actually follows minor leagues would have the humility to admit that we get this stuff wrong.... a lot. There you go with the girlfriend thing. Now you've got something concrete. It falls into the big hands category. A high percentage of us are here because the minors represent hope and excitement for our ML team. As much as I enjoy hearing from Chris Mellen, scouts from other teams and so-called experts on our milb, I also like to hear the impressions of those posters who have been lucky enough to see some of the players. Are those observations as highly skilled ? No. Does that mean that they aren't of some worth?...To me, also no. I'll bet most of those posters have played a lot of athletics and watched a good deal of baseball. No, they don't carry a stop-watch to time first to third or a Juggs to quantify the strength of pitcher, catcher and outfield arms. But, their eyes can tell them if an outfielder appears to get a good jump, take direct routes to the ball or throws accurately. They can offer observations on the authority with which a batter makes contact, what pitches and what locations he seems most successful attacking or areas that he appears to have weaknesses just as I suspect we all do when watching Sox players on NESN. So, to me direct input is of interest and value. Some of the posters who are critical of the member direct reports also pan the Mayos & Laws of the world. Many of those have not seen the players commented on, have less observational skill than the Keith Laws and likely no more than the direct observers here......Yet those factors don't seem to dampen the enthusiasm or tenacity with which they hold their own opinions. Humility cuts both ways. |
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 19:30:43 GMT -5
Post by welovewally on Oct 21, 2012 19:30:43 GMT -5
There you go with the girlfriend thing. Now you've got something concrete. It falls into the big hands category. A high percentage of us are here because the minors represent hope and excitement for our ML team. As much as I enjoy hearing from Chris Mellen, scouts from other teams and so-called experts on our milb, I also like to hear the impressions of those posters who have been lucky enough to see some of the players. Are those observations as highly skilled ? No. Does that mean that they aren't of some worth?...To me, also no. I'll bet most of those posters have played a lot of athletics and watched a good deal of baseball. No, they don't carry a stop-watch to time first to third or a Juggs to quantify the strength of pitcher, catcher and outfield arms. But, their eyes can tell them if an outfielder appears to get a good jump, take direct routes to the ball or throws accurately. They can offer observations on the authority with which a batter makes contact, what pitches and what locations he seems most successful attacking or areas that he appears to have weaknesses just as I suspect we all do when watching Sox players on NESN. So, to me direct input is of interest and value. Some of the posters who are critical of the member direct reports also pan the Mayos & Laws of the world. Many of those have not seen the players commented on, have less observational skill than the Keith Laws and likely no more than the direct observers here......Yet those factors don't seem to dampen the enthusiasm or tenacity with which they hold their own opinions. Humility cuts both ways. Great Post! |
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 19:51:11 GMT -5
Post by fdrnewdeal on Oct 21, 2012 19:51:11 GMT -5
There's just no winning this...
To recap. I think it's foolish to compare a baseball player of average athletic ability to one of the greatest collegiate athletes in history.
This opinion is apparently not valid, because I have never watched Bentz play live (sans a stopwatch).
I also apparently am a fan of Jonathan Mayo.
Yikes.
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Brentz
Oct 21, 2012 22:21:29 GMT -5
Post by jmei on Oct 21, 2012 22:21:29 GMT -5
There's a difference between "I've seen Brentz play, he's going to be a star" and "I've seen Brentz play, he's going to be a star because the ball sounds different coming off the bat and he take great routes in the outfield." The former is frankly useless because it is non-falsifiable and just a vague opinion without any actual reasoning or analysis. The latter is useful because even if you're not a scout, first-hand observations can help inform our projections of a player in ways that purely statistical analysis can not. Sarasoxer is right that direct input can be useful, but not when it's the form of "trust me, he looks like a star" without any additional detail, and that is what I see a lot of in this thread.
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Brentz
Oct 22, 2012 5:27:13 GMT -5
Post by jioh on Oct 22, 2012 5:27:13 GMT -5
There's a difference between "I've seen Brentz play, he's going to be a star" and "I've seen Brentz play, he's going to be a star because the ball sounds different coming off the bat and he take great routes in the outfield." The former is frankly useless because it is non-falsifiable and just a vague opinion without any actual reasoning or analysis. The latter is useful because even if you're not a scout, first-hand observations can help inform our projections of a player in ways that purely statistical analysis can not. Sarasoxer is right that direct input can be useful, but not when it's the form of "trust me, he looks like a star" without any additional detail, and that is what I see a lot of in this thread. This is in part a good comment, but even "he's going to be a star because the ball sounds different coming off the bat" is still wildly illogical: we all know this guy has great power when he hits the ball solidly, whether we've seen him or just read reports. But the question is how often he will hit the ball solidly at higher levels. No one is ignoring the eyewitness testimony of either posters or bloggers or sportswriters, but the eyewitnesses who are ignoring his weaknesses as they show up in statistics and in scouting reports are what's making people tear their hair out on Brentz. He does seem smart and coachable, so we can be cautiously optimistic, but to swoon and throw caution to the winds because he looks more impressive than the minor leaguers around him is unwise. |
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Brentz
Oct 22, 2012 8:04:18 GMT -5
Post by brendan98 on Oct 22, 2012 8:04:18 GMT -5
Just curious, does anyone know why Brentz hasn't played since Oct 15?
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Brentz
Oct 23, 2012 9:36:12 GMT -5
Post by sarasoxer on Oct 23, 2012 9:36:12 GMT -5
There's a difference between "I've seen Brentz play, he's going to be a star" and "I've seen Brentz play, he's going to be a star because the ball sounds different coming off the bat and he take great routes in the outfield." The former is frankly useless because it is non-falsifiable and just a vague opinion without any actual reasoning or analysis. The latter is useful because even if you're not a scout, first-hand observations can help inform our projections of a player in ways that purely statistical analysis can not. Sarasoxer is right that direct input can be useful, but not when it's the form of "trust me, he looks like a star" without any additional detail, and that is what I see a lot of in this thread. Jmei you and I are in complete agreement. My post was referring to those few who cast something of a disparaging eye to even detailed observations...to the effect of 'well you're no scout' etc. and in support of those who make the effort to give first-hand input. Brentz has completed AA and done quite well to date.... statistically better than our other minor league outfielders. For that, he is a highly rated prospect on this site. His perceived short-comings and developmental needs have been well-cataloged here. I have seen him play maybe 6 times. As many here would say, that is SSS. Maybe I saw him at his best. To me he looked at least as agile in the field as Ross. I did see him make an outstanding full-out diving catch in right center that Ross probably doesn't make.....heck of a play.... His arm appears stronger than anyone we have playing in the Boston outfield. He is very aggressive at the plate and, in the games I saw, made consistently hard contact. He is the opposite of the now departed Lin who appeared to fish for the ball. Like SteveofBradenton reported, he appears to be a right-center to left hitter. His ball carries. Like many at 23, his aggresiveness hurts him with 2 strike breaking balls away and perhaps getting him behind in counts. Maybe he will fix any swing holes and maybe he won't. Maybe his pitch recognition and selectivity will get better, maybe not. His attitude, (humble, coachable, determined) reported here and in local papers augurs well. Let's see. No one compared Brentz to Jensen in terms of athleticism, speed or anticipated production. Jensen's offensive forte was his ability to drive in runs...a statistic that some today downplay. Jensen's first full season was at age 24. He was a lifetime .279 hitter with 199 career homeruns (roughly 22/year and 1/30 plus at bats). Soxprospects scouting report offers hope that Brentz could be a 25 homerun guy in peak seasons. Yes, he strikes out a good bit but today players across the board do. I don't think that it is beyond the pale for Brentz to approach Jensen's BA & HR stats provided he makes the improvements noted. |
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