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2014 Trade Deadline Thread - Discussion Only
Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 22:36:36 GMT -5
Who's says the trades are even done? Victorino should slip through waivers. If he had a nice August, some sucker might bite were we to throw in enough cash.
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Post by larrycook on Jul 31, 2014 22:38:05 GMT -5
This was perhaps cherrington's best day as GM.
He really set the stage well for 2015.
He needs a top of the rotation pitcher and a left handed power bat and he is there.
Ps: trade pedroia so betts can play 2nd.
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Post by redsox4242 on Jul 31, 2014 22:41:25 GMT -5
This was perhaps cherrington's best day as GM. He really set the stage well for 2015. He needs a top of the rotation pitcher and a left handed power bat and he is there. Ps: trade pedroia so betts can play 2nd. No.
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Post by taftreign on Jul 31, 2014 22:42:24 GMT -5
I don't think any of us believed how committed Ben was to improving the 2015 roster in today's deals. There are two reasons I am particularly happy with the Cespedes deal. First he brings a solid D to the OF and adds power to an OF devoid of it. Secondly it brings a 2nd round comp pick and the extra draft budget which can be a de facto replacement, although lower, for losing a second rounder when signing a QO free agent if as expected the team has a protected first rounder. However if Ben is just as committed to resigning Lester there may be no forfeiture of a draft pick for signing a Shields or so forth. I believe it is far more likely beyond Lester the front office would trade from the pitching depth in the system to acquire an off the radar major league starter this off season.
As for the Lackey deal I was less enthusiastic but I have to reserve judgement. Honestly I haven't seen Kelly throw much at all to have an opinion on what role he fits and what upside remains. Craig I am more familiar with but he creates a few questions. First is he healthy and will his bat bounce back if he is? Second is while he appears to be a LF for the remainder of this season and next what is the 2016 plan? Does this make it more likely Napoli doesn't return on a short term deal if still producing and he becomes the future 1B? Is he a DH replacement after Ortiz? I have to believe there will be multiple other OF options from the system making a position change for Craig more likely.
As for the Peavy and Miller deal he was able to balance the major league pieces with a few quality young arms that still offer upside. The glut of AA/AAA starters grows and foreshadows a larger trade. And there's only one aspect that matters in regards to the Drew trade; it frees Xander up to move to SS. The bonus is NYY eats the other 5 mil of the salary. We didn't need anything back so Johnson's fate matters little unless he takes time from Middlebrooks and Holt.
Overall I have to say it was a successful week on the market. Clearly this is part one with part two coming this winter. I'm in an A- range only because I thought the Lackey deal needed one more piece like the first round comp pick. This would have been a B- if not for the excess value received in the Peavy and Miller deals. Good job overall Ben. Now go get us Lester back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 22:42:32 GMT -5
Ps: trade pedroia so betts can play 2nd. Before today's complete break with tradition, I would have said never in a million years would Pedroia be traded. Now though, yeah I could definitely see him going the way of Nomar. All it would take is one trip to the 60 day DL and Mookie would likely run away with the 2B job for the next decade.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 31, 2014 22:43:54 GMT -5
'So for 1.5 years of price we got a utility infielder, a set up man, and an 18 year old thats probably 24 years old?" Hahaha!
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 31, 2014 22:55:02 GMT -5
If he hits free agency, $18 million / year for Cespedes sounds like a more realistic market value than does $15 million / year. Didn't Ellsbury get almost $22 million / year? Really depends on what he will do in a better hitter's park. If he hits the same, I could see 15-18. If he rakes, he'll go higher. Such a premium on power, clubs with be reassured by his athleticism. I expect him to have a Beltre like turn around playing in a hitter's park and why am really hoping the team doesn't sit on it's duff, come up with a realistic and not fantasy based 5y extension before he starts tattooing the green wall and his price hits the roof.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jul 31, 2014 23:16:06 GMT -5
We get a definite draft pick and $800,000 spending allotment without penalty. As compared to a highly likely compensation pick from Lester leaving at the end of the year. What if Lester got hurt or absolutely tanked in the next 2 months? We might have gotten nothing. To me, the pick values are about equal. A year extra control of Cespedes was a bonus. Not saying we couldn't have done even better but Ben at least got a lot of deals done, when we needed a lot of deals done. Other teams like Philly needed to do a lot of deals also but struck out.
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Post by taftreign on Aug 1, 2014 0:00:25 GMT -5
'So for 1.5 years of price we got a utility infielder, a set up man, and an 18 year old thats probably 24 years old?" Hahaha! Thanks for this. Read mostly the whole thing and it is funny ( and to some extent sad) following fans reactions as the day unfolded only to end in bitter disappointment.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 1, 2014 0:11:57 GMT -5
I found today's deal confusing and I'm not sure I'm really crazy about them.
I kept hearing Ben say that his goal was to improve the team as quickly as possible.
I prefer what Theo is doing in Chicago. He's building something that will have lasting staying power. His mantra in Boston was to win 95 games consistently, make the playoffs 80% of the time.
I feel in a way that Ben is trying to capture lightning in a bottle for 2015 the way he did in 2013. Certainly it can work.
I thought the Sox would build similarly to how the Cubs did except they wouldn't have to continually lose 100 games to accomplish this. The Cubs didn't have great trade chips that the Sox did and the Sox already have a good farm system. I figured they'd add the pieces in the upper minors that they didn't already have, like an impact corner OF, or a #2 type starting pitcher.
Perhaps those avenues weren't available to Ben. I don't know Perhaps he could have had a Gausman or Bundy for Lester. I don't know. If he didn't have those options, I have no qualms about getting Cespedes as long as they lock him up long-term. I'd hate to think they only got one year's worth of benefits for losing Lester. As for Gomes, he gets to say again that winning follows him. Ha!
I didn't care for the deal with the Cards. I think the Sox can survive the loss of Lackey, as good as he was, but I think Craig adds to a logjam and blocks Mookie Betts which I don't think is a good thing and Kelly seems fringy to me, just another possibility among other pitchers in the system with similar ceilings.
I guess the Sox did well with the Miller deal. They did get a promising prospect, although I'm concerned that he has struggled in AA for two seasons now - however his very young age mitigates that a good deal.
The Drew deal - who cares? It's addition by subtraction. Just hope he doesn't help the Yanks and that they play him against lefties. We know they won't get his best asset - his SS glove.
Doubront to the Cubs for nothing. Sad that his value plummeted but what can you do? I feel like the Sox have ten Doubronts in the minors/majors already, guys with some (limited) upside who can fill in the bottom half of the rotation.
Peavy to the Giants. The Sox did as well as they could I suppose, a potential setup man and another Doubront type. For Jake Peavy, what could you really expect?
Like I said, I was hoping that Josh Bell became a Sox, or Bundy, or one of the Dodgers prospects or some Cards prospects or even Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez, but instead the Sox got quality (if for a short time) in Cespedes and some other pieces that could help short-term, but nobody beyond Cespedes that I would consider a young up and coming core member of the team, unfortunately.
It could be worse though. At least the Sox got some value for Lester. That's more than the Rays can say for losing Price.
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Aug 1, 2014 0:16:18 GMT -5
And what I don't understand is why would you prefer the Cubs route relying almost exclusively on prospects? I understand eventually they will start spending money.
But of all the bats, what if 2-3 don't work out? Don't you set yourself pretty bad as a franchise?
The Red Sox have a good young core with Bradley, Xander, Betts, Vazquez and Swihart. To me what would you propose have a young up and coming prospect highly regarded at each position? That is very unrealistic and on top of that I would guess a few flame out and you are stuck with failed prospects that have very reduced trade value.
The Sox have a young core as outlined above and added a young power hitting OF that has shown power at the major league level. Not something that can be said about the prospects.
I think Ben said it best. We have a good farm system and like what we have but need to help the big league club out as much as possible now and for the future. Guys like Cespedes, Kelly and Craig aren't of the old declining nature like a Victorino type. There are questions but they have more of a chance to be here a while than the short term deals a year ago.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Aug 1, 2014 3:46:44 GMT -5
Cliff Lee injured his arm last night and he likely will be out for the rest of the 2014 season. I would think that given his age, contract and injuries most teams would cross him off their shopping list unless the Phil's eat at least 2/3 of his salary and accept a couple of B/C prospects.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 1, 2014 4:02:01 GMT -5
Diamonbacks traded the MFY a utility infielder for a DH. Maybe they are planning to switch leagues.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Aug 1, 2014 4:42:30 GMT -5
I think at worst Kelly could become an excellent set up man for us. I have to say that I'm very impressed. If you told me that for Peavy we would grab the #2 and #7 prospects from the Giants (crap system, I know) and the #3 prospect from Baltimore (much better system than Giants) for Peavy and Miller two weeks ago I would have laughed.
I'm pretty sure Ben could have gotten Josh Bell and a few other prospects from Pittsburgh. But he chose to go the route of Cespedes. The only thing I'm confused about is why he didn't offered to take Milone back in a swap for Nava. But that's inconsequential. What is however relevant is that in a market where there is no free agent hitting he gets a good defensive outfielder who has power, lots of power in his prime.
Ben traded Lackey whom everyone here hated for arguably the Cards most dangerous hitter since Pujols left if you overlook the injury riddled 2014. I would have liked Shelby with him but I guess Joe Kelly works too. He has post season experience and has actually not pitched bad under pressure. Oh and both of these guys are cost controlled.
I know they aren't sexy prospects but if any of our prospects reach the level of Craig(when healthy ) or Cespedes we would be extremely lucky.
Oh and everyone who keeps saying trade Pedroia should be taken out to the woodshed and beaten. One of the better contracts in baseball and that's not good enough? He's our version of Jeter. Not going anywhere.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Aug 1, 2014 5:09:19 GMT -5
I found today's deal confusing and I'm not sure I'm really crazy about them. I kept hearing Ben say that his goal was to improve the team as quickly as possible. I prefer what Theo is doing in Chicago. He's building something that will have lasting staying power. His mantra in Boston was to win 95 games consistently, make the playoffs 80% of the time. I feel in a way that Ben is trying to capture lightning in a bottle for 2015 the way he did in 2013. Certainly it can work. I thought the Sox would build similarly to how the Cubs did except they wouldn't have to continually lose 100 games to accomplish this. The Cubs didn't have great trade chips that the Sox did and the Sox already have a good farm system. I figured they'd add the pieces in the upper minors that they didn't already have, like an impact corner OF, or a #2 type starting pitcher. Perhaps those avenues weren't available to Ben. I don't know Perhaps he could have had a Gausman or Bundy for Lester. I don't know. If he didn't have those options, I have no qualms about getting Cespedes as long as they lock him up long-term. I'd hate to think they only got one year's worth of benefits for losing Lester. As for Gomes, he gets to say again that winning follows him. Ha! I didn't care for the deal with the Cards. I think the Sox can survive the loss of Lackey, as good as he was, but I think Craig adds to a logjam and blocks Mookie Betts which I don't think is a good thing and Kelly seems fringy to me, just another possibility among other pitchers in the system with similar ceilings. I guess the Sox did well with the Miller deal. They did get a promising prospect, although I'm concerned that he has struggled in AA for two seasons now - however his very young age mitigates that a good deal. The Drew deal - who cares? It's addition by subtraction. Just hope he doesn't help the Yanks and that they play him against lefties. We know they won't get his best asset - his SS glove. Doubront to the Cubs for nothing. Sad that his value plummeted but what can you do? I feel like the Sox have ten Doubronts in the minors/majors already, guys with some (limited) upside who can fill in the bottom half of the rotation. Peavy to the Giants. The Sox did as well as they could I suppose, a potential setup man and another Doubront type. For Jake Peavy, what could you really expect? Like I said, I was hoping that Josh Bell became a Sox, or Bundy, or one of the Dodgers prospects or some Cards prospects or even Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez, but instead the Sox got quality (if for a short time) in Cespedes and some other pieces that could help short-term, but nobody beyond Cespedes that I would consider a young up and coming core member of the team, unfortunately. It could be worse though. At least the Sox got some value for Lester. That's more than the Rays can say for losing Price. You lost me when you said you wanted to be like the Cubs. C'mon on man! We can't be a Bottom 5 team for a number of years.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 1, 2014 5:31:27 GMT -5
They would have been better off extending Lackey than trading for a pair of largely redundant pieces with all the risk of prospects but less upside.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Aug 1, 2014 5:53:43 GMT -5
Not taking anything away from his performance last year. Anyone else glad he's off the team? Staring down fielders..bush league. Au revoir. He signed the 500k option and isn't going to own it.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,982
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Post by jimoh on Aug 1, 2014 6:42:43 GMT -5
Fun fact about better prospect than Josh Bell
Tim Brown ?@tbrownyahoo 7h Andy Marte, who hadn't had a big-league at-bat since 2010, just homered against the Bucs in Arizona. 5-3, Dbacks.
Prospect Ratings by Baseball America: Pre-2003: Rated #40 Prospect Pre-2004: Rated #11 Prospect Pre-2005: Rated #9 Prospect Pre-2006: Rated #14 Prospect
.269 .364 .525 at 20 in AA .275 .372 .506 at 21 in AAA .218 .277 .358 in mlb (before the hr)
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Post by amfox1 on Aug 1, 2014 6:48:13 GMT -5
They would have been better off extending Lackey than trading for a pair of largely redundant pieces with all the risk of prospects but less upside. This is absolutely wrong. Craig and Kelly have fairly defined floors and upsides. Prospects have less defined floors and upsides and therefore prospects always have more risk. Lackey has averaged 2.5 WAR since returning from TJ. Therefore, the Red Sox gave up approx 3 WAR total in trading Lackey. Craig was a 3 oWAR player in 2012 and 2013 and his WAR for 2011-2013 averaged 2.4. If he is able to bounce back to that (and my guess is that his performance this year is largely injury-related and partially because of the way Matheny played him), the trade is a slam-dunk win, even before including Kelly. Kelly was a 2.6 WAR player last year but in reality he probably projects better as a 1.0-1.5 WAR player, which is still solid.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Aug 1, 2014 6:48:27 GMT -5
Fun fact about better prospect than Josh Bell Tim Brown ?@tbrownyahoo 7h Andy Marte, who hadn't had a big-league at-bat since 2010, just homered against the Bucs in Arizona. 5-3, Dbacks. Prospect Ratings by Baseball America: Pre-2003: Rated #40 Prospect Pre-2004: Rated #11 Prospect Pre-2005: Rated #9 Prospect Pre-2006: Rated #14 Prospect .269 .364 .525 at 20 in AA .275 .372 .506 at 21 in AAA .218 .277 .358 in mlb (before the hr) Bell is also just a couple of months younger than Henry Ramos. Who got hurt after a tremendous start in AA this year. I'm sure Bell will turn it around. But, he ain't tearing the cover off of the ball in Altoona.Very small sample size. 60 plate appearances with 2 XBH's(A couple of doubles) and a .594 OPS. And, it's a long drive from Altoona to Boston.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 1, 2014 6:50:44 GMT -5
I found today's deal confusing and I'm not sure I'm really crazy about them. I kept hearing Ben say that his goal was to improve the team as quickly as possible. I prefer what Theo is doing in Chicago. He's building something that will have lasting staying power. His mantra in Boston was to win 95 games consistently, make the playoffs 80% of the time. I feel in a way that Ben is trying to capture lightning in a bottle for 2015 the way he did in 2013. Certainly it can work. I thought the Sox would build similarly to how the Cubs did except they wouldn't have to continually lose 100 games to accomplish this. The Cubs didn't have great trade chips that the Sox did and the Sox already have a good farm system. I figured they'd add the pieces in the upper minors that they didn't already have, like an impact corner OF, or a #2 type starting pitcher. Perhaps those avenues weren't available to Ben. I don't know Perhaps he could have had a Gausman or Bundy for Lester. I don't know. If he didn't have those options, I have no qualms about getting Cespedes as long as they lock him up long-term. I'd hate to think they only got one year's worth of benefits for losing Lester. As for Gomes, he gets to say again that winning follows him. Ha! I didn't care for the deal with the Cards. I think the Sox can survive the loss of Lackey, as good as he was, but I think Craig adds to a logjam and blocks Mookie Betts which I don't think is a good thing and Kelly seems fringy to me, just another possibility among other pitchers in the system with similar ceilings. I guess the Sox did well with the Miller deal. They did get a promising prospect, although I'm concerned that he has struggled in AA for two seasons now - however his very young age mitigates that a good deal. The Drew deal - who cares? It's addition by subtraction. Just hope he doesn't help the Yanks and that they play him against lefties. We know they won't get his best asset - his SS glove. Doubront to the Cubs for nothing. Sad that his value plummeted but what can you do? I feel like the Sox have ten Doubronts in the minors/majors already, guys with some (limited) upside who can fill in the bottom half of the rotation. Peavy to the Giants. The Sox did as well as they could I suppose, a potential setup man and another Doubront type. For Jake Peavy, what could you really expect? Like I said, I was hoping that Josh Bell became a Sox, or Bundy, or one of the Dodgers prospects or some Cards prospects or even Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez, but instead the Sox got quality (if for a short time) in Cespedes and some other pieces that could help short-term, but nobody beyond Cespedes that I would consider a young up and coming core member of the team, unfortunately. It could be worse though. At least the Sox got some value for Lester. That's more than the Rays can say for losing Price. You lost me when you said you wanted to be like the Cubs. C'mon on man! We can't be a Bottom 5 team for a number of years. It was 1 am when I typed this so perhaps I didn't put across the thoughts as I had intended. I wasn't talking about tanking for five years and picking 1st every year like the Cubs. I was talking about my perceived advantage that the Sox had chips to deal to get these kinds of guys the Cubs have been drafted and building with a young team coming up together in the next couple of years. Basically the Sox would cut out the drafting part and skip to the prospects being advanced already at AA and close to the majors. I wasn't talking about losing 100 games every year. I mean does 1 year of Cespedes sound better than six years of Josh Bell? That kind of question. Cespedes could very well leave in a year. Bell is the kind of kid who becomes a building block. Again, don't know what prospects Ben was offered. Don't know if a left side of Boagerts and Seager was ever an option.
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Post by kman22 on Aug 1, 2014 7:27:47 GMT -5
Seager and Bogaerts, who would play short?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 1, 2014 7:41:29 GMT -5
Seager and Bogaerts, who would play short? I had thought that Bogaerts would eventually end up in an OF corner rather than at SS and 3b. Seager would be the 3b with Marrero at SS.
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Post by polarbear91 on Aug 1, 2014 7:43:31 GMT -5
You lost me when you said you wanted to be like the Cubs. C'mon on man! We can't be a Bottom 5 team for a number of years. It was 1 am when I typed this so perhaps I didn't put across the thoughts as I had intended. I wasn't talking about tanking for five years and picking 1st every year like the Cubs. I was talking about my perceived advantage that the Sox had chips to deal to get these kinds of guys the Cubs have been drafted and building with a young team coming up together in the next couple of years. Basically the Sox would cut out the drafting part and skip to the prospects being advanced already at AA and close to the majors. I wasn't talking about losing 100 games every year. I mean does 1 year of Cespedes sound better than six years of Josh Bell? That kind of question. Cespedes could very well leave in a year. Bell is the kind of kid who becomes a building block. Again, don't know what prospects Ben was offered. Don't know if a left side of Boagerts and Seager was ever an option. I think BC's strategy stems from the thinking that we have enough prospects already and needed more MLB proven parts. The ideal is to mix in prospects with your proven players in their prime. We seemed to go too heavy on the prospects side this year. Adding more prospects to that mix would exacerbate that ratio further. It's nice to dream on prospects because we always look at upside and ignore potential flaws, but the reality of it is most of the prospects will fail to live up to expectations or wash out completely. We often look through the wrong end of the telescope when making these judgements. Again, it must be stated, if any of these prospects become Cespedes or Craig, that is a huge win. We just eliminated that part of the uncertainty. And if prospects continue to be overvalued in the industry as it seems is the new inefficiency, we have plenty of high value currency from which to deal this winter.
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Post by kmann on Aug 1, 2014 7:45:14 GMT -5
These trades were a bit too risky for my liking. First of all, who will anchor our rotation next year? I have to assume Lester and Scherzer will be too rich for us, Shields turns 33 years old in December (someone will give him 5 years). So you are left basically with Masterson and Ervin Santana, certainly not pitchers I want to count on for a #1 guy. Maybe we deplete our farm system for Hamels, whom might have similar stats to Lester over his career, but do you think Hamels will be a sub-3.00ERA in the AL East? On the hitting side, if Craig returns anywhere close to his 2010-2012 form, my god, this will be huge. But I have to be honest, I predict Lackey at the league minimum WILL be better value than Craig and Kelly for multiple years. I like the Lester, Miller and Peavy trades, but I wish THIS Lackey trade never happened.
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