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Post by jmei on Sept 19, 2014 18:46:49 GMT -5
Chase Headley reminds me of The Steven Drew of third base. above average with the glove, decent bat/power, always hurt with something. Is that true? He's played 600+ PAs and 140+ games in four of his six full MLB seasons. Has he been perennially injured? Honest question-- I really don't know.
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Post by moonstone2 on Sept 19, 2014 21:32:21 GMT -5
Jmei congratulations on posting several sources.
The problem is that none of them support your statement as it applies to.professional baseball players. Why.you would post. six articles that do not.support your argument? It's obfucation.
As for your selection bias argument , a herniated disc is a serious enough injury that it is difficult for a major league baseball player to hide. To support your argument you would need a lot of players successfully hiding the injury.
As it applies to Headley I wouldn't sign him until he proves that his back problem has been aleviated. That won't happen until January.
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Post by moonstone2 on Sept 19, 2014 21:42:46 GMT -5
Chase Headley reminds me of The Steven Drew of third base. above average with the glove, decent bat/power, always hurt with something. Is that true? He's played 600+ PAs and 140+ games in four of his six full MLB seasons. Has he been perennially injured? Honest question-- I really don't know. The last couple of years he has had several injuries that have impacted his performance but haven't taken away from his time on the field. He played through a torn meniscus in 2013 and this year had a hand injury that impacted his bat grip as well as the aforementioned herniated disc.
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Post by jmei on Sept 19, 2014 22:09:20 GMT -5
Jmei congratulations on posting several sources. The problem is that none of them support your statement as it applies to.professional baseball players. Why.you would post. six articles that do not.support your argument? It's obfucation. As for your selection bias argument , a herniated disc is a serious enough injury that it is difficult for a major league baseball player to hide. To support your argument you would need a lot of players successfully hiding the injury. As it applies to Headley I wouldn't sign him until he proves that his back problem has been aleviated. That won't happen until January. The third article posted includes 11 professional baseball players (amongst 100 high-level athletes in the study). The results indicate 79% of the individuals in the study as a whole returned to play after following conservative treatment, the vast majority of which showed significant improvement in symptoms (62-74%). More generally, I'm not sure why treatment of professional baseball players would differ significantly from that of other professional athletes, and I posted multiple articles indicating that conservative treatment is usually successful and surgery is usually unnecessary even for professional athletes. The article you posted also explicitly notes the sorts of selection issues I brought up earlier. A player doesn't have to hide it for it to slip through the cracks, it merely has to be noted as a "back injury" rather than a "herniated disc." But more importantly, Headley has not been shut down, and he's performed pretty well in his stint with the Yankees (.253/.356/.370, 108 wRC+ in 50 games) without missing any time due to his back. Indeed, when the Yankees traded for him back in July, they publicly stated that they were satisfied that his back issues had been alleviated and that he was low-risk. You obviously want to closely examine his medicals, and if it looks like surgery may be necessary, I agree that you don't sign him (or at least reduce your offer significantly). But by all accounts, it looks like physical therapy is working and he won't need surgery.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 19, 2014 22:42:55 GMT -5
Would it be easier to move bogaerts to 3rd and trade for tulo?
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Sept 20, 2014 1:14:41 GMT -5
no
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 20, 2014 6:54:10 GMT -5
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Post by burythehammer on Sept 20, 2014 9:43:01 GMT -5
Well, for starters Bogaerts is probably playing in Colorado in that scenario.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 20, 2014 12:44:24 GMT -5
In the long run who is the better SS and who is the better long term 3rd baseman? Bogaerts or Mookie?
Considering range, quickness, possibly hand coordination I think a strong case could be made for Mookie at SS, as compared to Xander. Xander probably has a stronger arm and more experience at SS for sure but long term who is better at SS? I think maybe Mookie.
Xander's height, compared to Mookie, and his power and overall profile seem to fit better at 3rd long term.
A case could be made for Xander at 3rd and Mookie at SS next year but Mookie has played very little SS. Considering everything, it could even make more sense to just trade one of them, sign Hardy and be done with it. Move the other to 3rd.
Do the Sox really want to win in 2015 that badly?
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Post by larrycook on Sept 20, 2014 14:45:31 GMT -5
In the long run who is the better SS and who is the better long term 3rd baseman? Bogaerts or Mookie? Considering range, quickness, possibly hand coordination I think a strong case could be made for Mookie at SS, as compared to Xander. Xander probably has a stronger arm and more experience at SS for sure but long term who is better at SS? I think maybe Mookie. Xander's height, compared to Mookie, and his power and overall profile seem to fit better at 3rd long term. A case could be made for Xander at 3rd and Mookie at SS next year but Mookie has played very little SS. Considering everything, it could even make more sense to just trade one of them, sign Hardy and be done with it. Move the other to 3rd. Do the Sox really want to win in 2015 that badly? Yes we need to return in 2015. In my mind bogaerts is better suited for 3rd and finding a short stop is easier than finding a 3rd baseman. I am not sure mookie has the arm for short. But he could be a perennial gold glove second baseman. Problem is we got one already, tied to a long term contract and with declining offensive skills. We need three pieces to return in 2015, two quality starting pitchers and a left handed power bat. All the other pieces are in the roster, or the minors or can be picked up in free agency.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 20, 2014 20:20:02 GMT -5
If KC fails, is there any chance they give up on Mike Moustakas? I know the bat hasn't played thus far in the majors, but that swing is too beautiful to go without at least a huge year, plus the glove is pretty solid. My favorite buy low-ish candidate.
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 20, 2014 21:03:43 GMT -5
In the long run who is the better SS and who is the better long term 3rd baseman? Bogaerts or Mookie? Considering range, quickness, possibly hand coordination I think a strong case could be made for Mookie at SS, as compared to Xander. Xander probably has a stronger arm and more experience at SS for sure but long term who is better at SS? I think maybe Mookie. Xander's height, compared to Mookie, and his power and overall profile seem to fit better at 3rd long term. A case could be made for Xander at 3rd and Mookie at SS next year but Mookie has played very little SS. Considering everything, it could even make more sense to just trade one of them, sign Hardy and be done with it. Move the other to 3rd. Do the Sox really want to win in 2015 that badly? Xander may have the stronger arm but we are yet to see it. He seems to lob the ball to first base to avoid an error since, earlier this season he was overthrowing a lot causing an error. X-man has a lot to learn at SS. While I don 't think he'll ever be a Nomar, he still has a high ceiling and can perfect his throwing, timing and footwork with good coaching and hard work. I haven't seen much of Betts at SS. He was drafted at that position but, for some reason, was moved to 2B. Perhaps the scouts did not feel his arm was good enough to make the throw from deep in the hole. I hope the team finds a place for both because there's a wealth of talent between these two kids.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 20, 2014 21:19:25 GMT -5
Please let Willy Mo Brooks play 3rd next year. Then everyone around here can be excited about getting another high draft pick.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2014 8:23:35 GMT -5
Xander gave me no reason to think he can play 3b. He looks better at SS than at 3B. If he moves off SS, I think he'd go to the OF.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 21, 2014 9:20:59 GMT -5
In the long run who is the better SS and who is the better long term 3rd baseman? Bogaerts or Mookie? Considering range, quickness, possibly hand coordination I think a strong case could be made for Mookie at SS, as compared to Xander. Xander probably has a stronger arm and more experience at SS for sure but long term who is better at SS? I think maybe Mookie. Xander's height, compared to Mookie, and his power and overall profile seem to fit better at 3rd long term. A case could be made for Xander at 3rd and Mookie at SS next year but Mookie has played very little SS. Considering everything, it could even make more sense to just trade one of them, sign Hardy and be done with it. Move the other to 3rd. Do the Sox really want to win in 2015 that badly? Considering that the Red Sox moved Mookie off of shortstop in Lowell, answer seems pretty obvious to me.
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Post by jdb on Sept 21, 2014 10:58:57 GMT -5
Valbuano seems like a good trade target but is he worth a Ranoudo or Johnson? If we don't sign a Sandaval or Headly id rather just sign a cheap vet and let him compete with WMBs, Holt and Cechini and let the best man win.
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 22, 2014 12:33:40 GMT -5
I'm hoping Cecchini gets the lion's share of 3B reps for the six remaining games. The question is, if he plays the position well and continues to hit at a .333 pace or better, does that change any offseason plans to fill the job with an outside candidate?
Committing to yet another rookie for 2015 when the team is hoping to bounce back and contend, could be risky.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 22, 2014 14:08:54 GMT -5
Things have changed a lot for the Mookster since Lowell but one would think a player would need a lot of grooming to be a mlb SS. Being blocked by Marrero might have been a part of that decision at SS.
No doubt it would be difficult for Mookie to be a SS going forward but considering our alternatives and Mookie's obvious athleticism I would at least consider it. I think he could do it.
I'd rather have my rangy infielders up the middle and my taller reaction type guys on the corners.
From just looking at Cechinni briefly, it seems like a steady diet of breaking stuff but he looks like he is closer to mlb ready than I thought. Highly doubtful he gets the job next spring but it wouldn't surprise me if he was able to win it mid to late Summer.
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Post by moonstone2 on Sept 22, 2014 14:14:41 GMT -5
Here is what the abstract actually says.
No where does it mention that the athletes in the study are "high level" or professional athletes. It mentions that there were 11 baseball players in the study NOT 11 professional baseball players. I am going to request once again that you only post sources that support your argument and the article you cited clearly does not. Posting a study and then attempting to misrepresent what it says, doesn't count.
You are once again misrepresenting your own source.
As you can see only an epidural, not physical therapy is mentioned as treatment. The assessment of Headley being "low risk", was only for the months the final two months of the season and does not relate to the issue going forward. It is not stated that there was a permanent solution as you are falsely implying.
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Post by moonstone2 on Sept 22, 2014 14:22:51 GMT -5
I'm hoping Cecchini gets the lion's share of 3B reps for the six remaining games. The question is, if he plays the position well and continues to hit at a .333 pace or better, does that change any offseason plans to fill the job with an outside candidate? Committing to yet another rookie for 2015 when the team is hoping to bounce back and contend, could be risky. And they won't do that. Cecchini was mentioned by Baseball Prospectus this week as one of the most disappointing prospect in the majors. Yet the blurb mentioned a mid-season shoulder injury and that Cecchini's bat speed and discipline were still evident. Also mentioned was that his glove had improved increasing the chances that he will stay at 3B. I think he'll be improved next year and might be able to take over 3B as the season goes along. I think a veteran one year solution would be great, but giving a veteran a multi-year deal unnecessary and possibly foolish.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 22, 2014 14:34:25 GMT -5
Things have changed a lot for the Mookster since Lowell but one would think a player would need a lot of grooming to be a mlb SS. Being blocked by Marrero might have been a part of that decision at SS. No doubt it would be difficult for Mookie to be a SS going forward but considering our alternatives and Mookie's obvious athleticism I would at least consider it. I think he could do it. Mookie and Marrero were teammates basically for the month of July last year. Even if we say, for the sake of argument, that the decision to move him in Lowell in 2012 was in deference to Marrero(very well could have been), the decision to leave him at second wasn't. (FWIW, Vinicio was the SS in Greenville.) My point was mostly that it's easy to look at Betts (athletic, plus second baseman) versus Bogaerts (average-ish shortstop) and think Betts is the better shortstop option, but the fact that they kept one at short and moved the other one and kept him off says something.
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Post by jmei on Sept 22, 2014 15:51:21 GMT -5
No where does it mention that the athletes in the study are "high level" or professional athletes. It mentions that there were 11 baseball players in the study NOT 11 professional baseball players. I am going to request once again that you only post sources that support your argument and the article you cited clearly does not. Posting a study and then attempting to misrepresent what it says, doesn't count. You're just nitpicking for nitpicking's sake now. The body of the article (p. 26) discusses how the athletes in the study were either high-level recreational (high school sports team) or competitive (college or professional). Unfortunately, there is no further breakdown of how many of the 11 fell into each bucket, but the study absolutely deals with guys who are high-level athletes. As you can see only an epidural, not physical therapy is mentioned as treatment. The assessment of Headley being "low risk", was only for the months the final two months of the season and does not relate to the issue going forward. It is not stated that there was a permanent solution as you are falsely implying. Physical therapy is standard treatment for a herniated disc. But if it makes you feel better, you can substitute "epidural" for "physical therapy" in my earlier statement. It's a distinction without a difference. More importantly, if Headley can play through the pain, there's not much risk of further injury. The main symptoms of a herniated disc are pain and weakness, and the reason guys get surgery is that the pain becomes too much to play through. If Headley is still on the field and performing well, it suggests that his injury is, at the very least, relatively mild and unlikely to require future surgery.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 22, 2014 19:02:01 GMT -5
Chris, I think you are probably right and don't mind just saying it. My thoughts were that Betts would seem to have more aptitude for SS in the long run and Bogaerts more aptitude at 3rd in the long run. That horse has left the barn though in all probability.
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Sept 23, 2014 9:27:23 GMT -5
I'm hoping Cecchini gets the lion's share of 3B reps for the six remaining games. The question is, if he plays the position well and continues to hit at a .333 pace or better, does that change any offseason plans to fill the job with an outside candidate? Committing to yet another rookie for 2015 when the team is hoping to bounce back and contend, could be risky. And they won't do that. Cecchini was mentioned by Baseball Prospectus this week as one of the most disappointing prospect in the majors. Yet the blurb mentioned a mid-season shoulder injury and that Cecchini's bat speed and discipline were still evident. Also mentioned was that his glove had improved increasing the chances that he will stay at 3B. I think he'll be improved next year and might be able to take over 3B as the season goes along. I think a veteran one year solution would be great, but giving a veteran a multi-year deal unnecessary and possibly foolish.Couldn't a platoon of Middlebrooks and Holt be about the same as a 1 yr veteran solution? Yes they could both fall flat on their face (as could a 1 yr "pillow contract" veteran), but if you're hoping on Cecchini grabbing the 3B job by July next year, then it will be because a (hopefully) fully healthy Middlebrooks has finally proven he isn't an everyday MLB 3B , and that Holt proved he belongs as a super-utility over an everyday player.
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Post by moonstone2 on Sept 23, 2014 12:47:36 GMT -5
NO!
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