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Post by kingofthetrill on Nov 23, 2014 17:39:32 GMT -5
If were were able to sign Hanley, I still think we'd need to sign Lester and trade an OF (plus other pieces as necessary) for a 2-3 starter. I trust our FO though.
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Post by jmei on Nov 23, 2014 17:41:03 GMT -5
I don't think they're going to sign both. It's probably just that they've pivoted to Hanley and it takes a little time for that to get through the game of telephone that is rumor reporting.
Hanley is an elite hitter who doesn't have big platoon splits, and at a similar price, I'd prefer him over Sandoval. The makeup issues are ameliorated by the strong clubhouse culture in Boston (guys like Ortiz and Pedroia and Farrell aren't going to let him get away with loafing). The injury history is less than ideal but that's the tradeoff for getting a guy who has been a truly elite bat when healthy.
My only real question is how good he'd be as a defender at third. He was terrible there earlier in his career, but I think it's something like Xander's awfulness at 3B this year-- mostly related to unfamiliarity and lack of preparation. He seems to have the tools to be a decent defender there, and if you think he can get to league-average with time and reps, I'd love to have him. If he's between a -5 and -10 defender at 3B, however, he's not much better than Sandoval overall and I'm much less enthusiastic about him.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 23, 2014 17:57:12 GMT -5
It seems like that rumor I said was a troll job might be right. I can't see both Hanley and Sandoval. Ben does seem to have this "we'll talk about position later" attitude.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 23, 2014 18:01:23 GMT -5
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Post by soxfan06 on Nov 23, 2014 18:04:19 GMT -5
I can't believe the rumors they are trying to sign both either.
Because if so that means Sandoval at 1st, Hanley at LF and that means we have to trade a ton of guys. Makes no sense, plus it's not like we have a DH spot to get some of these guys the most playing time possible.
I hope to get a Hanley deal done. Would love if it was 4 years. But either way I'd love to have him over Sandoval.
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Post by mgoetze on Nov 23, 2014 18:08:28 GMT -5
The injury history is less than ideal but that's the tradeoff for getting a guy who has been a truly elite bat when healthy. Also, we are well equipped to handle injuries at 3B. Brock Holt can almost certainly deliver an above replacement level performance at 3B (in fact Steamer projects him around league average) and Cecchini could potentially figure it out next year. That's not to say we shouldn't sign a star 3B (only one though, please), just that we can afford to overlook injury history a bit more than a team that would have to use a replacement-level player in the worst case.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 23, 2014 18:09:24 GMT -5
The Sox look like they are being used by Sandoval as leverage to get a bigger deal from SF. Maybe the Sox are using Hanley to get leverage to get either one of them to move. Neither SF or Boston seemed anxious to make a final offer. It may be they find that Sandoval is not worth his asking price and move on to other options.
Isn't Hanley a reasonable alternative?
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Post by mgoetze on Nov 23, 2014 18:10:34 GMT -5
My only real question is how good he'd be as a defender at third. Not as good as Mookie, probably.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2014 18:16:32 GMT -5
Sox after both Hanley and Sandoval together... Sure why not? I'll take both and trade Cespedes
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 23, 2014 18:17:17 GMT -5
Hanging with #ElTrece @hanleyramirez #iSeeYou t.co/tCIMZ6SDRSHanley's agent
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Nov 23, 2014 18:21:23 GMT -5
If the reports of the various offers Sandoval has received are true, then does anyone believe he will do anything other than re-sign with SF? If the dollars are reasonably close, why would he leave? He's got a huge fan base and plays on a terrific team that is likely to be in the thick of things for the foreseeable future.
I have to believe that the Sox are not going get Sandoval unless they raise their offer, and I suspect they don't want to do that.
There is a long piece on Hanley on Fangraphs that says he is a terrible fielder, both at SS and 3B. His best position would be LF, according to the analysis. If he is healthy, he is better than Cespedes.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 23, 2014 19:34:32 GMT -5
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Post by jdb on Nov 23, 2014 19:58:14 GMT -5
I highly doubt they sign both and it could be they want to force Sandavals hand. Who knows though if they sign both, assuming Rameriz is LF, that could open up Cespedes and even Napoli if you wanted to go Craig, Nava or Fransico at 1B. Regardless this will be a fun offseason.
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wb93
Rookie
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Post by wb93 on Nov 23, 2014 20:10:21 GMT -5
Is there no issue you cannot oversimplify? No, I did not say $5 mil in one year. READ. And then an apology would be damm appropriate. Not it quite sure why this is considered oversimplified. A 5%+ spread on the tax rate is huge. $1M mortgages don't matter. At those income levels AMT rules. The only way to avoid it is to give it to charity. They get their taxes. It is a difference of several $M over the life of the contract.
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Post by azblue on Nov 23, 2014 20:12:22 GMT -5
Why would the Sox go after Ramirez who has proved a problem in the clubhouse with the Dodgers and when he was property of Boston? It would be interesting to know what the thinking is.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 23, 2014 20:12:06 GMT -5
If Ramirez is in left and Castillo is in Center then who is in right? I know we all hope/think/want Betts will be there but where does that leave Victorino/Craig? This is all too weird. I almost wonder if they are legit going after both of them with the intent on giving up on the other once one is signed, maybe?
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wb93
Rookie
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Post by wb93 on Nov 23, 2014 20:16:26 GMT -5
I hope that they get both. With what I spend on tix, I would rather that they spend the money. And sign Lester.
Then take the extra outfielder and Middlebrooks (national league might be great for him) and a pitching prospect and go get Cole Hamels
That would be fun.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Nov 23, 2014 20:21:12 GMT -5
Why would the Sox go after Ramirez who has proved a problem in the clubhouse with the Dodgers and when he was property of Boston? It would be interesting to know what the thinking is. This stuff almost always is exaggerated by the media. There are several recent articles that have downplayed the issue, especially if Hanley is with the Sox. Ortiz and Hanley are friendly and Ortiz certainly will have a positive influence. Then there is Pedroia, who won't put up with any crap. I don't think there is going to be any real problem. Now, if they get Hanley, maybe they could trade Cespedes for Anibal.
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Post by mgoetze on Nov 23, 2014 20:22:00 GMT -5
Why would the Sox go after Ramirez who has proved a problem in the clubhouse with the Dodgers and when he was property of Boston? It would be interesting to know what the thinking is. All your questions have already been answered in this thread.
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Post by mgoetze on Nov 23, 2014 20:24:12 GMT -5
I hope that they get both. With what I spend on tix, I would rather that they spend the money. And sign Lester. Strange, if I were paying for tickets I would care more about them trying to win than spending money but whatever rocks your boat.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 23, 2014 20:26:46 GMT -5
Moved all the tax related stuff into this thread in the CPA Throwdown Subforum.
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wb93
Rookie
Posts: 36
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Post by wb93 on Nov 23, 2014 20:38:32 GMT -5
I hope that they get both. With what I spend on tix, I would rather that they spend the money. And sign Lester. Strange, if I were paying for tickets I would care more about them trying to win than spending money but whatever rocks your boat. Crap. I didn't realize that Panda and Ramirez didn't want to win. You are right. Let's load the lineup with unproven prospects and watch them grow. It worked great last year. Actually it it sucked last year. I don't expect a World Series every year. But I do expect meaningful games in September. That's what I want for these ticket prices. And 6-7 starting position players with a track record of ML performance is a great way to get there. So don't be a DB. Spending money is not a bad thing.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 23, 2014 20:43:04 GMT -5
“@iamjoonlee: Hanley Ramirez willing to move to 1B, 3B, LF or RF, #RedSox willing to sign him without a position set in stone per @enrique_Rojas1.”
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Post by mgoetze on Nov 23, 2014 20:46:51 GMT -5
Crap. I didn't realize that Panda and Ramirez didn't want to win. It doesn't matter how much they want to win, what matters is how much better they make the team. And I don't think signing both of them makes the team very much better than signing only one of them. I mean, I'm sure Victor Martinez wants to win. That doesn't mean that outbidding the Tigers for his services would have been a great way to win. It would have been a great way to spend money, though.
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Nov 23, 2014 20:53:09 GMT -5
It doesn't matter how much they want to win, what matters is how much better they make the team. And I don't think signing both of them makes the team very much better than signing only one of them. I mean, I'm sure Victor Martinez wants to win. That doesn't mean that outbidding the Tigers for his services would have been a great way to win. It would have been a great way to spend money, though. Except Victor Martinez would be redundant here. If they happen to sign both, which like jmei I doubt the validity of reports, Ramirez in left and Sandoval at third makes this team drastically different in a good way. Hanley is significantly better than anything currently on the team, especially offensively, we could only speculate how his defense would fare in left. And Sandoval would be a vast improvement at third over what would be available, regardless of his struggles against lefties. We could debate over and over again about the money however if the Sox hold their offer and land Sandoval at 5 years and $95MM it isn't the worst deal in the world given his age.
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