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9/19-9/21 Red Sox @ Orioles Series Thread
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Post by godot on Sept 20, 2014 0:20:23 GMT -5
Liberal moderation of game day threads aside, is it possible to ban future references that trading Lester has had an adverse effect on this years pitching staff? You miss the point. It is not that his absence (and others) has a negative impact this year, duh, of course. It is this could be a harbinger of next year if he isn't replaced or resigned and the prospects do not make the leap. It is a valid hypothetical based on this experience. They have the winter to get a couple of solid starters. But there is also the question of what we have with the present young corp? Relief pitching also could be a problem. Who knows if Koji can repeat as closer and whether Layne and Wilson are for real. By the way asking to ban someone's opinion , is rather scary.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 20, 2014 8:50:55 GMT -5
Liberal moderation of game day threads aside, is it possible to ban future references that trading Lester has had an adverse effect on this years pitching staff? You miss the point. It is not that his absence (and others) has a negative impact this year, duh, of course. It is this could be a harbinger of next year if he isn't replaced or resigned and the prospects do not make the leap. It is a valid hypothetical based on this experience. They have the winter to get a couple of solid starters. But there is also the question of what we have with the present young corp? Relief pitching also could be a problem. Who knows if Koji can repeat as closer and whether Layne and Wilson are for real. By the way asking to ban someone's opinion , is rather scary. I think you are sincerely missing the point ... the trading of Peavy, Lackey, and Lester was in part to answer the very question you pose and challenges you name. I mean, "duh, of course" pretty much describes the idea that the Sox need to upgrade the pitching going into next year, too. I'm sure that NO ONE involved with the Red Sox thinks the current pitching staff is good enough for next year and beyond. The trading of those three guys was part of the process of figuring out what to do about next year (well, Lackey was in part because he demanded to be traded, so he's a little different). They needed extended looks at Workman, RDLR, Webster, and Ranaudo (and Kelly, for that matter) to get a better look at what they have in those guys so they could plan what to do about next year. And trading Lester and Peavy was completely irrelevant to next year since they weren't signed for next year (again, Lackey's different). Losing more for a better draft position was a factor at some level, I'd guess, but I'm not sure how much of one it was. The team needed to upgrade their outfield and power and figure out their AAA pitchers. The trades were all about meeting those goals ... including shedding some salary for the room to sign Castillo.
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Post by godot on Sept 20, 2014 13:50:45 GMT -5
Brian, whatever
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Post by nationinthesouth on Sept 20, 2014 14:10:36 GMT -5
A burning example of why the conversation surrounding the Lester trade and reasons behind it no longer has value...With all due respect to freedom of speech.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 20, 2014 14:18:45 GMT -5
Haha. Had a feeling I was wasting my time ...
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Post by redsox4242 on Sept 20, 2014 14:33:37 GMT -5
Well, obviously we sure shot ourselves in the foot(Plaxico Burress anyone?) with Lackey trade. Craig is a stiff.
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Post by mattpicard on Sept 20, 2014 15:14:18 GMT -5
Well, obviously we sure shot ourselves in the foot(Plaxico Burress anyone?) with Lackey trade. Craig is a stiff. That's no way to talk about our cleanup hitter... Betts 2B Bogaerts SS Ortiz DH Craig 1B Nava LF Castillo CF Bradley Jr RF Middlebrooks 3B Vazquez C De La Rosa RHP @ De Aza LF Pearce 1B Jones CF Cruz RF Young DH Hardy SS Flaherty 3B Hundley C Schoop 2B Tillman RHP
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2014 18:29:53 GMT -5
Thanks to the trades on deadline day, we now need to add both pitching and hitting for 2015.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 20, 2014 19:09:40 GMT -5
Middlebrooks should look really good in a Miami jersey next season.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2014 19:14:18 GMT -5
Cruz just hit a slow roller to SS with nobody on base. As X was charging it, the O's announcer said, "He only has one play."
Funny how it always seems like the fielder only has one play when there's only one guy running!
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Post by larrycook on Sept 20, 2014 19:29:58 GMT -5
Cruz just hit a slow roller to SS with nobody on base. As X was charging it, the O's announcer said, "He only has one play." Funny who it always seems like the fielder only has one play when there'only one guy running! Bogaerts would look really good at third base next season.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2014 19:36:08 GMT -5
Cruz just hit a slow roller to SS with nobody on base. As X was charging it, the O's announcer said, "He only has one play." Funny who it always seems like the fielder only has one play when there'only one guy running! Bogaerts would look really good at third base next season. Nah, his bat doesn't play there. But then again his glove doesn't play well at SS.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,787
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Post by nomar on Sept 20, 2014 19:38:36 GMT -5
Bogaerts would look really good at third base next season. Nah, his bat doesn't play there. But then again his glove doesn't play well at SS. Right now his glove plays fine at SS and by the time it doesn't he'll probably be a great hitter
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 20, 2014 19:43:50 GMT -5
Thanks to the trades on deadline day, we now need to add both pitching and hitting for 2015. How about a reality check? Thanks to that trade deadline, they need less hitting and they get to evaluate all that young pitching. They weren't going anywhere anyway this year. Now they know what direction they need to go and they have the cash to get there. Let's see how they do.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 20, 2014 19:59:57 GMT -5
Why is Bradley getting any at bats ?
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 20, 2014 20:04:17 GMT -5
Bogaerts would look really good at third base next season. Nah, his bat doesn't play there. But then again his glove doesn't play well at SS.
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Post by godot on Sept 20, 2014 20:22:20 GMT -5
Thanks to the trades on deadline day, we now need to add both pitching and hitting for 2015. How about a reality check? Thanks to that trade deadline, they need less hitting and they get to evaluate all that young pitching. They weren't going anywhere anyway this year. Now they know what direction they need to go and they have the cash to get there. Let's see how they do. You are a pretty savvy observer. Just what has been learned about "all that young pitching"? I find young pitchers hard to judge unless they start with good command and composure. It also can be long and often bumpy learning process . What you see now may not be what you see tomorrow, for better or worse.
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Post by klostrophobic on Sept 20, 2014 22:25:31 GMT -5
Why is Bradley getting any at bats ? So he can improve. EDIT: Oops, forgot he was already 24. Nevermind then, I got nothing.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2014 23:25:11 GMT -5
Thanks to the trades on deadline day, we now need to add both pitching and hitting for 2015. How about a reality check? Thanks to that trade deadline, they need less hitting and they get to evaluate all that young pitching. They weren't going anywhere anyway this year. Now they know what direction they need to go and they have the cash to get there. Let's see how they do. Because they have Cepedes and his .290 OBP and Allen Craig? Given Lester's comments last winter about wanting to stay here, I have to think there was a deal to be made there at about 5 years/$110 million. Make that deal and undo the Lackey trade and we have the two top spots in the rotation filled. They could then use the resources they have to get a hitter or two. Filling the top two spots in a rotation is a humongous undertaking that is going to take some combination of a lot of money, valuable prospects and risk. I checked and that's the reality.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2014 23:28:00 GMT -5
How about a reality check? Thanks to that trade deadline, they need less hitting and they get to evaluate all that young pitching. They weren't going anywhere anyway this year. Now they know what direction they need to go and they have the cash to get there. Let's see how they do. You are a pretty savvy observer. Just what has been learned about "all that young pitching"? I find young pitchers hard to judge unless they start with good command and composure. It also can be long and often bumpy learning process . What you see now may not be what you see tomorrow, for better or worse. And if they still had Lester and Lackey, there would STILL be plenty of opportunity to evaluate the young pitchers - Lester, Lackey, Buchholz, and two open rotation spots for the young guns.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 20, 2014 23:49:15 GMT -5
That's your reality. With right-handed power at a premium, they got a bat that's just that. He's not perfect but he sure isn't a 33 year-old Jonny Gomes. Moreover, they don't get Castillo without freeing up the cash from Lester's salary. That's two bats. And while Craig is nothing but a lottery ticket at this point, if he is just a sunk cost for acquiring Kelly - a 26 year old with 4 full years of control after this season - he's DFAd. That won't come cheap but it's a cost the team is perfectly capable of dealing with. My guess is they'll eat some of his salary and trade him off if it comes to that. The idea that the Sox are bottom feeders unable to make any sort of bid for the pitching talent they want is silly. The notion that NY will simply outbid them for that talent even sillier. Also, disabuse yourself of the notion that there's "a hitter or two" out there to be gotten. The market has changed completely. You only have to examine the remains of Carlos Beltran and what the Yankees paid to get him - $30 million more in 2015-16 - to understand that. Add: Here's the potential used parts list for the coming year. There may be a few useful pieces in there - somewhere - but starting position players? Hardly any the team would likely give a second look to. Add2: How about a reality check? Thanks to that trade deadline, they need less hitting and they get to evaluate all that young pitching. They weren't going anywhere anyway this year. Now they know what direction they need to go and they have the cash to get there. Let's see how they do. You are a pretty savvy observer. Just what has been learned about "all that young pitching"? I find young pitchers hard to judge unless they start with good command and composure. It also can be long and often bumpy learning process . What you see now may not be what you see tomorrow, for better or worse. Godot, how long have you been watching baseball? Do you think all young pitchers do well in their first few years? There are at least a dozen more examples like those. It's trivial to dig them up. When you've got a raft of them, all in the upper minors, what do you do with them? Do you let them rot down there? Do you showcase them with major league starts? If so, how do you get them all playing time? Or do you just trade them all for over-the-hill talent (aka the MFY corollary)? With that talent drying up, that's a loser's game in my opinion. Once the CBA was signed and sealed, and with the flood of money coming into the game, I stopped expecting year-after-year playoff runs. Those days are gone. Teams are simply buying out the arb years right into the most productive portion of a player's career. The FO made it clear two years ago - before they won the WS - where they were headed and they've stayed the course. I'm into analysis, how that strategy pans out in the long run. The short term is just what I expected. Lots of transition as they sift through the successes and failures. Like hundreds of teams before them, they'll turn the best of those young players into the backbone of future winners. That's guaranteed.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 21, 2014 0:21:07 GMT -5
The idea that the Sox are bottom feeders unable to make any sort of bid for the pitching talent they want is silly. The notion that NY will simply outbid them for that talent even sillier. Also, disabuse yourself of the notion that there's "a hitter or two" out there to be gotten. The market has changed completely. You only have to examine the remains of Carlos Beltran and what the Yankees paid to get him - $30 million more in 2015-16 - to understand that. I agree 100%. We have all the opportunity we could ever ask for in both the free agent market and the trade market. The question becomes, what pieces will cherrington acquire? In my mind, shields makes perfect sense, even on a four year deal. Next comes the trade. Is it for hamels, sales, darvish or someone else ? We know the price will be high, and that is ok in my book. The tough piece is he left handed power bat. Heyward makes a lot of sense, only if we include cespedes along with middlebrooks in whatever trade we make with Miami.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 21, 2014 0:21:24 GMT -5
I can't believe people are still complaining about losing Lester. I am of the opinion he probably costs in excess of 150 mil this winter and in about 8 games we would have next to zero control over him if we kept him besides a short negotiating window. And we got a definite pick as compared to a probable one plus 1.5 years of control over possibly our 2nd biggest hitter. A guy we can probaby extend this winter in his relative prime and consider the cost of RH power in this market. Not to mention a very good chance to resign Lester this winter. That trade was a huge no brainer and thank God they made it.
We probably wouldn't have saved much at all if we extended Lester earlier in the year and how would we like it if we extended Lester earlier and he got hurt in this worthless season? How smart would the FO have been then?
I think Ben did a superb job at the deadline. We are in excellent hands. This guy squeezes every penny and makes great decisions. He thinks far ahead of other GMs.
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Post by godot on Sept 21, 2014 2:21:15 GMT -5
Oregon Norm, you did not answer my question but rather avoided it. Didn't need a lecture, egad Spanky. If you did not catch it, I said that it takes time to develop pitchers and the road is not a straight path. So why tell me the same. Don't be so defensive. It is a simple question. If you can't answer it, just say so and don't go rambling some generalities and defense of the team. Personally I am tired of these arguments. They go in circles. We have our opinions and I am content to wait it out.
Again, out of the pitchers they have brought up, what is your appraisal? Seems you read into the question and became defensive. Did not mean to spook you.
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Post by awall on Sept 21, 2014 6:37:57 GMT -5
Please stop running JBJ out there, this is painful to watch. He isn't going to get better until he has hours a day to work on mechanics, all he's going to do now is get more frustrated. Let Brentz get ABs in right.
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