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Chris Sale
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Post by telson13 on Nov 27, 2016 0:06:59 GMT -5
Go read Larry cooks comments above, people are saying we need another TOR starter right now! You don't talk about trading for Sale in the offseason because maybe something happens and we need a starter in July. A true blockbuster trade for a guy like Sale is a lot easier in the offseason. If your worried about depth then you look at pitchers that could provide depth, not Sale. You trade for Sale because you feel we need another TOR starter. Maybe there's no Sale available come July but there might be a Sonny Gray (if he rebounds) come July. I'm not one of those people advocating anything. Man, I don't see Beane selling low on Gray, and you've gotta wonder about the injury, but I bet Bannister could really help him. I'm not all that high on Gray in general, but he's a solid 2 when healthy. I can't find the article, but I saw a study that showed his CB movement breakdown, and while he was successful, he basically threw two distinct CBs. Last year, he lost that distinction. May have been the injury...which makes me wonder if the CB caused the injury, or if his effectiveness will come back when it heals. I think Sale will move this winter, but Gray will be an interesting guy to follow. If he struggles, his value will really bottom out. Even if he pitches well, I think the questions about him will linger (especially with the whole "size" thing), and Beane might just keep him.
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Post by telluricrook on Nov 28, 2016 1:27:11 GMT -5
Well now you're starting to look at ERA I suppose too. Okay Price had a ERA over 4 all but one month into the season. Happy? I always look at ERA, but I also look at things like WHIP which is much more important to me. I also look at innings, strikeouts, QS, HRs, and ERA +. If your going to just use ERA, you should use ERA+ which is park adjusted thus you can compare players. I will be happy if you learn how to actually look at pitchers the right way. Outside wins, ERA is the second worthless stat a pitcher can have. He was a #4 last season. That's what everybody is saying you need to accept it.
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Post by telluricrook on Nov 28, 2016 1:36:26 GMT -5
Anyway Price can have 1.95 ERA or have the best ERA + plus next season and win the CY it doesn't matter because he is only going to be judged based on his postseason performance. He brought it all on himself for not being able to pitch in the playoffs.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 28, 2016 2:24:06 GMT -5
I always look at ERA, but I also look at things like WHIP which is much more important to me. I also look at innings, strikeouts, QS, HRs, and ERA +. If your going to just use ERA, you should use ERA+ which is park adjusted thus you can compare players. I will be happy if you learn how to actually look at pitchers the right way. Outside wins, ERA is the second worthless stat a pitcher can have. He was a #4 last season. That's what everybody is saying you need to accept it. Yea if by everybody you mean one person.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 28, 2016 2:40:57 GMT -5
Anyway Price can have 1.95 ERA or have the best ERA + plus next season and win the CY it doesn't matter because he is only going to be judged based on his postseason performance. He brought it all on himself for not being able to pitch in the playoffs. Yea if you say so. Your saying it so it must be true!
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Chris Sale
Nov 28, 2016 12:23:57 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by telson13 on Nov 28, 2016 12:23:57 GMT -5
He was a #4 last season. That's what everybody is saying you need to accept it. Yea if by everybody you mean one person. I think he was being facetious.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 28, 2016 12:35:42 GMT -5
Yea if by everybody you mean one person. I think he was being facetious. I was thinking same thing, but then he followed it up with his negative David Price post so I took it he was serious. Without that second post I would have taken it as a joke.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 1, 2016 0:10:29 GMT -5
Dave Cameron's argument against trading for Sale, which is similar to my thinking. He does mention Moncada as a more viable option than Benintendi, but I would argue further that Sale really only adds 3 WAR, since whoever he would replace (Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz) is a reasonable bet at putting up 1.5-3 WAR. Given Moncada's ceiling, and likelihood of contributing in late 2016/early 2017 (at minimal cost, not to mention the value of the most likely traded player when he is ready, Shaw)I just don't see it as being worth it. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-sale-and-giving-up-a-stud/I also think that projection on Benintendi is low (for the reason mentioned, and because I think he'll be better offensively than Steamer does).
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Post by telluricrook on Dec 1, 2016 1:39:00 GMT -5
I think he was being facetious. I was thinking same thing, but then he followed it up with his negative David Price post so I took it he was serious. Without that second post I would have taken it as a joke. Negative? You can take it whatever way you want.. Even his dog Astro would agree with what I said.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 1, 2016 2:38:10 GMT -5
I was thinking same thing, but then he followed it up with his negative David Price post so I took it he was serious. Without that second post I would have taken it as a joke. Negative? You can take it whatever way you want.. Even his dog Astro would agree with what I said. I don't think so. I'm willing to bet your the only guy on here that thinks what Price does in regular season doesn't matter, because only how he does in playoffs matter.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 1, 2016 3:11:27 GMT -5
Dave Cameron's argument against trading for Sale, which is similar to my thinking. He does mention Moncada as a more viable option than Benintendi, but I would argue further that Sale really only adds 3 WAR, since whoever he would replace (Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz) is a reasonable bet at putting up 1.5-3 WAR. Given Moncada's ceiling, and likelihood of contributing in late 2016/early 2017 (at minimal cost, not to mention the value of the most likely traded player when he is ready, Shaw)I just don't see it as being worth it. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-sale-and-giving-up-a-stud/I also think that projection on Benintendi is low (for the reason mentioned, and because I think he'll be better offensively than Steamer does). Well I think Sale's value would come in the postseason, this team is already a borderline play-off team already with no moves made. Sale would make it a sure fire bet to be a play-off team with the hopes for more. Definitely a short term approach though with huge long-term ramifications however.
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Post by jmei on Dec 1, 2016 10:08:54 GMT -5
Dave Cameron's argument against trading for Sale, which is similar to my thinking. He does mention Moncada as a more viable option than Benintendi, but I would argue further that Sale really only adds 3 WAR, since whoever he would replace (Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz) is a reasonable bet at putting up 1.5-3 WAR. Given Moncada's ceiling, and likelihood of contributing in late 2016/early 2017 (at minimal cost, not to mention the value of the most likely traded player when he is ready, Shaw)I just don't see it as being worth it. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-sale-and-giving-up-a-stud/I also think that projection on Benintendi is low (for the reason mentioned, and because I think he'll be better offensively than Steamer does). Whoever Sale replaces would still be in the organization, though, and would be available to be traded or at the very least serve as rotation depth and bullpen assistance.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 1, 2016 11:17:01 GMT -5
Dave Cameron's argument against trading for Sale, which is similar to my thinking. He does mention Moncada as a more viable option than Benintendi, but I would argue further that Sale really only adds 3 WAR, since whoever he would replace (Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz) is a reasonable bet at putting up 1.5-3 WAR. Given Moncada's ceiling, and likelihood of contributing in late 2016/early 2017 (at minimal cost, not to mention the value of the most likely traded player when he is ready, Shaw)I just don't see it as being worth it. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-sale-and-giving-up-a-stud/I also think that projection on Benintendi is low (for the reason mentioned, and because I think he'll be better offensively than Steamer does). Whoever Sale replaces would still be in the organization, though, and would be available to be traded or at the very least serve as rotation depth and bullpen assistance. I have to imagine that ERod would be included in a trade for Sale, along with others.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 1, 2016 15:32:46 GMT -5
Dave Cameron's argument against trading for Sale, which is similar to my thinking. He does mention Moncada as a more viable option than Benintendi, but I would argue further that Sale really only adds 3 WAR, since whoever he would replace (Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz) is a reasonable bet at putting up 1.5-3 WAR. Given Moncada's ceiling, and likelihood of contributing in late 2016/early 2017 (at minimal cost, not to mention the value of the most likely traded player when he is ready, Shaw)I just don't see it as being worth it. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-sale-and-giving-up-a-stud/I also think that projection on Benintendi is low (for the reason mentioned, and because I think he'll be better offensively than Steamer does). Whoever Sale replaces would still be in the organization, though, and would be available to be traded or at the very least serve as rotation depth and bullpen assistance. That's absolutely true. The issue is that none of the three really has all that much trade at present, due to injury/experience questions. Basically, I think all three are more valuable to the Sox than to another team.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 1, 2016 23:36:19 GMT -5
Whoever Sale replaces would still be in the organization, though, and would be available to be traded or at the very least serve as rotation depth and bullpen assistance. I have to imagine that ERod would be included in a trade for Sale, along with others. I am hopeful dombrowski views betts, bogey, benintendi, Rodriguez, Hanley, pedroia, kopech, moncada and groome as untouchables. The white sox currently need a center fielder and catcher. You have to think that those two positions plus a replacement starter and a top end prospect are needed to get this deal done. We have the pieces to make this trade. Bradley, Vazquez, pomeranz and Devers. If they ask for moncada instead of Devers, it is up to dombrowski to just say no,
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 2, 2016 0:19:07 GMT -5
I have to imagine that ERod would be included in a trade for Sale, along with others. I am hopeful dombrowski views betts, bogey, benintendi, Rodriguez, Hanley, pedroia, kopech, moncada and groome as untouchables. The white sox currently need a center fielder and catcher. You have to think that those two positions plus a replacement starter and a top end prospect are needed to get this deal done. We have the pieces to make this trade. Bradley, Vazquez, pomeranz and Devers. If they ask for moncada instead of Devers, it is up to dombrowski to just say no, Substitute E-Rod for Pomeranz and Swihart for Vazquez, and then add JBJ and Devers then you might have the basis of a deal, although I think it's kind of steep for the Red Sox. I would think the White Sox would much prefer E-Rod and his five years or so of control vs 2 years of Pomeranz and they'd probably prefer the upside of Swihart to Vazquez. I think losing Devers and JBJ is too much. They'd need one of them. If JBJ was dealt Moncada would wind up in the OF with Devers eventually taking 3b. If Devers was dealt Moncada would simply be the 3b, but they'd have a hole in the OF or hope Moncada can shift to the OF with Sandoval as the 3b fulfilling his contract. Can't imagine losing both JBJ and Devers would be something they'd be willing to do. I don't think, as good as Sale is, that it makes sense to deal JBJ, E-Rod, Swihart, and Devers. If the Sox don't think Swihart can be the catcher of the future, then maybe that changes things, but I honestly don't see Sandy Leon continuing to hit like he did last year - I can see him reverting back to what he was and Vazquez hasn't shown the ability to hit, so dealing Swihart could open up a big hole at catcher over the next several years. I think I'd be willing to do JBJ, E-Rod, Vazquez or Leon, and either Dubon or Barnes as the 4th piece, but I doubt the ChiSox would bite. Honestly, even this deal could backfire on the Red Sox if Sale winds up being not much better than an emerging E-Rod. If the Sox lost JBJ, I'd look into dealing for Jay Bruce (or sign Brandon Moss), who I would think wouldn't cost much in a deal with the Mets. I would think Moncada eventually would wind up in the outfield in this scenario when Devers is ready to be the 3b. But if the Sox are trying to get under the deadline, they'd probably have to deal Buchholz, probably for a reliever, a viable AAAA starter with options and a B/C prospect.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 2, 2016 7:14:29 GMT -5
JBJ was worth about as much as Sale last year and made $500k. These proposals are insane.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 2, 2016 9:09:11 GMT -5
Someone had reported that there has been 5 teams that have seperated themselves in the Chris Sale sweepstakes in terms of interest-
Rangers Astros Nationals Braves and yes the Red Sox
No mention of the Yankees or Dodgers. I wouldn't trust Dombrowski to hoard prospects like everyone here wants. I think he might pull the trigger on a deal that hurts.
Edit- I definitely heard it on mlb network radio but I can't find any links.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 2, 2016 9:20:17 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 2, 2016 9:47:18 GMT -5
This is what I think it takes to get Sale-
Benintendi Swihart Eduardo Rodriguez Michael Kopech
I hope if this is the package, that Dombrowski stays far away but I don't know with Dombrowski. He might figure that it's easier to get a LF and Sale replaces Eduardo in the rotation. Alright I'm done speculating.
All these JBJ and Pomeranz suggestions make no sense. The White Sox will want under 25 controllable talent for Sale imo. JBJ and Pomeranz don't fit this description.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 2, 2016 10:22:06 GMT -5
Really truly hope the Sox don't go after Sale if the cost is anywhere near what some of you are proposing. Sox already have 2 Cy Young level TOR pitchers. Do they really need to give up so much future value for another 1? A Resounding NO!!
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 2, 2016 11:25:34 GMT -5
Really truly hope the Sox don't go after Sale if the cost is anywhere near what some of you are proposing. Sox already have 2 Cy Young level TOR pitchers. Do they really need to give up so much future value for another 1? A Resounding NO!! If they traded for Sale, some people would start targeting another ace that might be moved.
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Post by scarr0214 on Dec 2, 2016 12:31:45 GMT -5
This is what I think it takes to get Sale- Benintendi Swihart Eduardo Rodriguez Michael Kopech I hope if this is the package, that Dombrowski stays far away but I don't know with Dombrowski. He might figure that it's easier to get a LF and Sale replaces Eduardo in the rotation. Alright I'm done speculating. All these JBJ and Pomeranz suggestions make no sense. The White Sox will want under 25 controllable talent for Sale imo. JBJ and Pomeranz don't fit this description. The White Sox are going to ask for everything you suggested and one more major piece. It could be Devers, Groome, Travis, or another guy but they aren't giving him up for 4 top prospects this year. They want the Shelby Miller deal with two more guys. (ESPN) There's really no need to speculate on Chris Sale. Just cross your fingers and pray we don't get him. It'll cost us our whole future.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 2, 2016 13:50:05 GMT -5
I like Chris Sale as a pitcher. He's a really good pitcher and he's got a great contract, but he's not Sandy Koufax or Pedro Martinez in his prime. I wouldn't trade Benintendi straight up for Sale, let alone others.
JBJ has about the same value as Sale and honestly that would be an even up swap. It's easier to find a CF or in the Red Sox' case that can replace Bradley than it would be to find an ace like Sale.
The question is how much beyond JBJ would the Sox have to kick in and most of the trade ideas including mine make very little sense. And if the ChiSox insist on Benintendi, well they can send Sale elsewhere for all I care.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 2, 2016 15:11:52 GMT -5
Dave Cameron's argument against trading for Sale, which is similar to my thinking. He does mention Moncada as a more viable option than Benintendi, but I would argue further that Sale really only adds 3 WAR, since whoever he would replace (Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz) is a reasonable bet at putting up 1.5-3 WAR. Given Moncada's ceiling, and likelihood of contributing in late 2016/early 2017 (at minimal cost, not to mention the value of the most likely traded player when he is ready, Shaw)I just don't see it as being worth it. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-sale-and-giving-up-a-stud/I also think that projection on Benintendi is low (for the reason mentioned, and because I think he'll be better offensively than Steamer does). Well I think Sale's value would come in the postseason, this team is already a borderline play-off team already with no moves made. Sale would make it a sure fire bet to be a play-off team with the hopes for more. Definitely a short term approach though with huge long-term ramifications however. How did you determine they are borderline play-off as opposed to oh I don't know the likely preseason favorite to represent the AL for the WS? I team that won 93 games who cashed it in for the final 3 games to boot and the only player of real value they will lose is their DH. A team that had several injuries or bouts of unexplained shitty pitching (Clay B.) the whole first half and now have deeper depth in their starting pitching and will get Carson Smith back? www.espn.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/32628/carson-smithPerhaps you forgot just how filthy he was as a rookie, 70 IP 49 Hits with 92 K's 13 saves and 22 holds his k/BB was 4.18, the OPS against him. 539. Having him back will make Farrell smarter.
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