SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Jon Lester to the Cubs 6/155
|
Post by cba82 on Dec 10, 2014 13:38:34 GMT -5
The hysteria on the part of Shaughnessy, Olney, Edes is just off the charts. Like many others who have posted, while I am sorry to see Lester go, I have no real issues with the decision by the Red Sox or how they have handled this. As I posted earlier, I predict the Cubs will come to regret this more than will the Red Sox.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Dec 10, 2014 14:08:01 GMT -5
The hysteria on the part of Shaughnessy, Olney, Edes is just off the charts. Like many others who have posted, while I am sorry to see Lester go, I have no real issues with the decision by the Red Sox or how they have handled this. As I posted earlier, I predict the Cubs will come to regret this more than will the Red Sox. Exactly my feelings. I'll be disappointed if the Red Sox don't do anything to address their rotation, but let's not pretend that Lester was the last hope.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 14:12:43 GMT -5
The hysteria on the part of Shaughnessy, Olney, Edes is just off the charts. Like many others who have posted, while I am sorry to see Lester go, I have no real issues with the decision by the Red Sox or how they have handled this. As I posted earlier, I predict the Cubs will come to regret this more than will the Red Sox.
Why? Because of the money? Neither team is hurting for cash. We are now, however, very much hurting for starting pitching.
He is now being (grossly over) paid for being the same pitcher he was in 2014 for the entire contract with a slight aging curve. I really don't buy that is his starting point. I understand that there is inflation, but 2nd highest paid pitcher in baseball?
|
|
|
Post by suttree on Dec 10, 2014 14:13:57 GMT -5
If they offered $125MM last offseason they probably could have gotten this done. Maybe they would have had to go to 130 but it's pretty reasonable to assume a more aggressive offer would have worked. That was the mistake if they were really serious about keeping him.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 14:17:18 GMT -5
If they offered $125MM last offseason they probably could have gotten this done. Maybe they would have had to go to 130 but it's pretty reasonable to assume a more aggressive offer would have worked. That was the mistake if they were really serious about keeping him. And if he re-signed for $130m and had a season like 2012, it would have been the dumbest thing they ever did. In the middle of 2013, some were arguing they didn't even want us to pick up his option for 2014.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 14:31:59 GMT -5
Lester is a very consistent pitcher. Has the guy ever missed a start? And, if you're going to point to his one bad season - 2012 - as your reason not to sign him long term, then you're never going to be willing to sign anyone long term. Most pitchers getting 9 figure contracts never had a season like Lester's 2012. I'd bet none of them did within 3 prior years of signing it.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 10, 2014 14:33:56 GMT -5
Alex Speier ?@alexspeier 2m2 minutes ago Cherington: 'We would have liked to have had more chance for dialogue prior to season. Why that didn't happen, maybe more than one reason.'
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 10, 2014 14:40:39 GMT -5
Dan Shaughnessy ?@dan_Shaughnessy 12m12 minutes ago This Lester fiasco reminds me of Haywood Sullivan losing Fisk after neglecting to mail his contract. Took years to recover from that. This?? ROFL! I underestimated how stupid the things he said would be. Whenever I start thinking that way - that I can gauge how bad the chatter will get - I disabuse myself of that notion. I can't rationally get to that space. Shaughnessy hasn't done any legitimate reporting, let alone thoughtful analysis, for a very long time. I'm sure he justifies the gibberish to himself, but it's beyond bad. His analogies are pulled right out of his... But I digress.
|
|
ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,421
|
Post by ianrs on Dec 10, 2014 14:54:24 GMT -5
I don't think its so much discrediting him as you two clearly valuing him differently. I side with jimed14 on this, I don't think Lester will ever again match the season he just had, even pitching in the NL Central. I think he peaked at the right time.
Again, not trying to destroy Lester. Just a difference in perceived value.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Dec 10, 2014 14:55:21 GMT -5
The hysteria on the part of Shaughnessy, Olney, Edes is just off the charts. Like many others who have posted, while I am sorry to see Lester go, I have no real issues with the decision by the Red Sox or how they have handled this. As I posted earlier, I predict the Cubs will come to regret this more than will the Red Sox. Why? Because of the money? Neither team is hurting for cash. We are now, however, very much hurting for starting pitching. Opportunity cost. They can almost certainly spend $155m+ more efficiently on other players. Hell, just for 2015, I might rather have Brandon McCarthy and Justin Masterson than Lester.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Dec 10, 2014 14:57:37 GMT -5
If they offered $125MM last offseason they probably could have gotten this done. Maybe they would have had to go to 130 but it's pretty reasonable to assume a more aggressive offer would have worked. That was the mistake if they were really serious about keeping him. This is laughably hindsight biased. I've already posted a link in this thread showing that as recently as July, only three of thirty-nine posters on this forum were willing to pay Lester $130m. If you polled folks in March 2014, literally noone would have been willing to offer Lester $130m.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 14:57:58 GMT -5
Dan Shaughnessy ?@dan_Shaughnessy 12m12 minutes ago This Lester fiasco reminds me of Haywood Sullivan losing Fisk after neglecting to mail his contract. Took years to recover from that. This?? ROFL! I underestimated how stupid the things he said would be. Whenever I start thinking that way - that I can gauge how bad the chatter will get - I disabuse myself of that notion. I can't rationally get to that space. Shaughnessy hasn't done any legitimate reporting, let alone thoughtful analysis, for a very long time. I'm sure he justifies the gibberish to himself, but it's beyond bad. His analogies are pulled right out of his... But I digress. Yep, I've stopped reading Twitter. Can't take the whining anymore.
|
|
|
Post by larrycook on Dec 10, 2014 14:58:08 GMT -5
There are a lot of innings on Lester's arm and if the cutter stops cutting, then that poor 2012 season becomes the Cubs new reality.
In summary, I am happy the Cubs signed Lester. I hope Lester does very well for them and hopefully we meet the Cubs in the world series next season.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 15:08:26 GMT -5
I can agree to disagree. But, the front office needs to implement a Plan B to make up for Lester's production that doesn't involve selling the farm to the Phillies for Hamels. I think that's something everyone can agree on. We don't have Ruben Amaro running our team. I bet they have up to Plan Z.
|
|
|
Post by kmann on Dec 10, 2014 15:31:03 GMT -5
Like others have said, people understand Lester going to the Cubs. What we don't understand is why he lied about taking a hometown discount. Maybe he was willing to play here if we matched their offer, but thats not what a hometown discount is. It all makes sense now why he shut down negotiations with the Sox when they tried to re negotiate with him. If he had pulled a Scherzer and just told everyone he was going to the highest bidder, everyone would've been better off. How do you know he lied? Maybe he changed his mind. Maybe after playing in Oakland for several months, he thought a change of scenery might not be as bad as he originally thought? Get over it. I am disappointed we lost Lester, but I have no animosity toward Lester and certainly do not think he is a liar.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 10, 2014 15:36:46 GMT -5
Like others have said, people understand Lester going to the Cubs. What we don't understand is why he lied about taking a hometown discount. Maybe he was willing to play here if we matched their offer, but thats not what a hometown discount is. It all makes sense now why he shut down negotiations with the Sox when they tried to re negotiate with him. If he had pulled a Scherzer and just told everyone he was going to the highest bidder, everyone would've been better off. How do you know he lied? Maybe he changed his mind. Maybe after playing in Oakland for several months, he thought a change of scenery might not be as bad as he originally thought? Get over it. I am disappointed we lost Lester, but I have no animosity toward Lester and certainly do not think he is a liar. Except he never engaged the Red Sox in substantial dialogue over a negotiation at any point. Prior to spring training he would not sit down and meet with the team. So yes, I consider the hometown discount media stunt to be a lie. I respect your opinion but if you have a problem with mine, thats not my problem.
|
|
|
Post by suttree on Dec 10, 2014 15:37:59 GMT -5
If they offered $125MM last offseason they probably could have gotten this done. Maybe they would have had to go to 130 but it's pretty reasonable to assume a more aggressive offer would have worked. That was the mistake if they were really serious about keeping him. This is laughably hindsight biased. I've already posted a link in this thread showing that as recently as July, only three of thirty-nine posters on this forum were willing to pay Lester $130m. If you polled folks in March 2014, literally noone would have been willing to offer Lester $130m. Well, yes, it is hindsight biased. However, I felt the same way a year ago when talks broke down. I said they needed to be more aggressive if they were serious, with something closer to at least $120MM. Everyone on the board thought that was too much, but it probably would have gotten it done, so I'm not exactly changing my opinion on this. There are risks for sure, but I knew if they didn't get it done last offseason he wasn't going to resign. FA is just too expensive for top pitching.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 15:41:39 GMT -5
This is laughably hindsight biased. I've already posted a link in this thread showing that as recently as July, only three of thirty-nine posters on this forum were willing to pay Lester $130m. If you polled folks in March 2014, literally noone would have been willing to offer Lester $130m. Well, yes, it is hindsight biased. However, I felt the same way a year ago when talks broke down. I said they needed to be more aggressive if they were serious, with something closer to at least $120MM. Everyone on the board thought that was too much, but it probably would have gotten it done, so I'm not exactly changing my opinion on this. There are risks for sure, but I knew if they didn't get it done last offseason he wasn't going to resign. FA is just too expensive for top pitching. There was zero indication that it would have done any good. Maybe Lester and his agents had the intention of getting the most money they could possibly get and didn't want to be called greedy? And maybe they succeeded? I mean the difference between Lester and Ellsbury was that we knew Ellsbury was greedy, he didn't care if people thought that and didn't try to hide it and we didn't care when he went to the highest bidder. But Lester, he really really cared to not be called greedy or disloyal. We had to pity him on the way out of town for getting a $155 million contract because the meanie Red Sox front office didn't care about him enough to keep him in town and he had no choice. Great, I hope he succeeds in "his new challenge" to win a WS for the Cubs and get home in time for dinner.
|
|
|
Post by suttree on Dec 10, 2014 15:47:05 GMT -5
Well, yes, it is hindsight biased. However, I felt the same way a year ago when talks broke down. I said they needed to be more aggressive if they were serious, with something closer to at least $120MM. Everyone on the board thought that was too much, but it probably would have gotten it done, so I'm not exactly changing my opinion on this. There are risks for sure, but I knew if they didn't get it done last offseason he wasn't going to resign. FA is just too expensive for top pitching. There was zero indication that it would have done any good. Maybe Lester and his agents had the intention of getting the most money they could possibly get and didn't want to be called greedy? And maybe they succeeded? There is no way of knowing, though similar extensions have been signed in the past in similar circumstances. I find it hard to believe Lester's agent would have risked an injury or a down year for potentially another 20 to 30 million in total value, and that was in the best of circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Dec 10, 2014 15:48:16 GMT -5
I think it's about time for everyone to reach stage 4 on the Kübler-Ross model, so we can get that much closer to accepting Lester is gone, and moving on. Arguing and nitpicking over what everyone, individually believes is fact is getting nowhere. Isn't it going to be much more fun to argue about which prospects the sox should give up, and then about who they should've actually traded once they do make a move for a big name starter?
|
|
|
Post by kmann on Dec 10, 2014 15:50:52 GMT -5
How do you know he lied? Maybe he changed his mind. Maybe after playing in Oakland for several months, he thought a change of scenery might not be as bad as he originally thought? Get over it. I am disappointed we lost Lester, but I have no animosity toward Lester and certainly do not think he is a liar. Except he never engaged the Red Sox in substantial dialogue over a negotiation at any point. Prior to spring training he would not sit down and meet with the team. So yes, I consider the hometown discount media stunt to be a lie. I respect your opinion but if you have a problem with mine, thats not my problem. BC was quoted today as saying one of his lessons learned from this process was waiting until ST to begin the dialogue with Lester, so it does not appear that it was Lester's fault for there not being any meetings prior to ST. And if I am Lester and I receive a $70M offer in ST and I think my value is $150M+, I would not want the distraction of trying to bridge a gap like that during the season. I do not have a problem with you, but unless you know Lester personally (and maybe you do), it's just seems like a stretch to call him a liar when you have no idea what's going on in his head. I do not know him, but he seems like a class act to me.
|
|
|
Post by Coreno on Dec 10, 2014 16:52:09 GMT -5
Can everyone drop the bitterness of a scorned lover? I would have loved to have him back, but I'm glad the Sox drew the line somewhere. He's had a few very good years and has split the last 3+ years with about a year and a half of really great pitching and almost two years of pretty poor performance. Pitching in Chicago, he may be able to justify the contract, who knows? But its not worth the risk for the Sox to bring him back on that kind of contract. Lastly, quit it with the fraud and liar namecalling. Of course things were said for leverage, welcome to the business of baseball, don't make it a condemnation of Lester's character.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 10, 2014 17:01:35 GMT -5
I saw the need to defend ownership and Ben when I believe now more than ever they did nothing wrong.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 10, 2014 17:31:42 GMT -5
Can everyone drop the bitterness of a scorned lover? It's embarrassing.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 10, 2014 20:54:13 GMT -5
|
|
|