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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 10, 2014 23:26:57 GMT -5
Al East isn't what it once was. Still doesn't compare to the NL West. Not even close. It doesn't matter what a player would do in the NL West. It's not relevant to the Sox. If both Rubby and Webster became superstar #1's, it changes absolutely nothing. That was my point.
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Post by savedbythebellhorn on Dec 10, 2014 23:27:16 GMT -5
Al East isn't what it once was. Still doesn't compare to the NL West. Not even close. NL West is a pitcher's haven for the California teams, but no so much at Chase.
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Post by soxfan06 on Dec 10, 2014 23:27:21 GMT -5
Al East isn't what it once was. Still doesn't compare to the NL West. Not even close. Care to explain? And please don't bring ERA into the picture.
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Post by kman22 on Dec 10, 2014 23:31:23 GMT -5
Still doesn't compare to the NL West. Not even close. NL West is a pitcher's haven for the California teams, but no so much at Chase. And Coors.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 10, 2014 23:32:30 GMT -5
I will say this: RDLR and Webstwr are more highly looked upon in these forums that probably anywhere else. Yuuuuup. Do Webster and RDLR have more upside than Miley? Yes. Have either one of them proven that they can throw 30+ starts and 200 innings in a big league season? Not even close. Webster has had chances for two years now and he's done very little with them. RDLR started strong last season but more or less collapsed down the stretch. And it's not like the Red Sox have the option of rolling out eight marginal pitchers next year and seeing which ones work out; there's only so many starts to go around and all of them contribute to the team's W/L record. If this team isn't rebuilding, and it's pretty clear that they're not, they've got to be more concerned with the absolute quality of the team they can put on the field than maximizing "value" at every opportunity.
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Post by jrffam05 on Dec 10, 2014 23:32:41 GMT -5
I'm warming up to the deal, but I still think we gave up too much. I think RDL has close to a 40% shot of being better next year. Love the ground ball rate and the workhorse of Miley.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 10, 2014 23:33:25 GMT -5
Guesses for potential third players: Witte, Asuaje, Lin, Keury De La Cruz, Mercedes, Gunkel, Taveras, Aro, Dahlstrand
Somebody like that?
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Post by bigbatter on Dec 10, 2014 23:34:59 GMT -5
Still doesn't compare to the NL West. Not even close. It doesn't matter what a player would do in the NL West. It's not relevant to the Sox. If both Rubby and Webster became superstar #1's, it changes absolutely nothing. That was my point. You misunderstood. I'm not saying what Rubby and Webster would do in the NL West. Not at all. You commented that the AL East is not what is once was in reference to how Miley's transition from the NL West to the AL East would effect his numbers (quater-dime-nickel post). My point is that his numbers have benefited by pitching in that division.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 10, 2014 23:35:23 GMT -5
Let's try a little exercise. Rank Rubby and Webster between our pitching prospects in the Top 20 on here: Owens Rodriguez Johnson Barnes/ RubbyWebsterRanaudo Kopech Ball Escobar Stankiewicz I'd put Rubby behind Barnes and Webster after Escobar, maybe even behind Stankiewicz. Pretty fair trade to me. Where I'd put 'em. Agree with your point though.
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Post by Steve Henley on Dec 10, 2014 23:36:14 GMT -5
The AL East - NL West thing is really overblown here. Team wOBA from 2014:
Col - .337 LAD - .327 Tor - .325 Bal - .323 SF - .308 NYY - .305 TB - .305 SD - .283
Other than the Padres there doesn't seem to be much difference in terms of the division opposition Miley faced/will face.
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Post by redsox4242 on Dec 10, 2014 23:38:22 GMT -5
We gave up 3 prospects for this stiff? wow. I am especially pissed we gave up Rubby.
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Post by jmei on Dec 10, 2014 23:39:17 GMT -5
Guesses for potential third players: Witte, Asuaje, Lin, Keury De La Cruz, Mercedes, Gunkel, Taveras, Aro, Dahlstrand Somebody like that? The name that stands out on that list to be is Mercedes. But yes, I suspect someone like that-- has a little upside, but probably nothing.
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Post by buffs4444 on Dec 10, 2014 23:40:21 GMT -5
This team is heavy on 3/4/5 starters if this deal goes through. Either that or they're banking on guys like Buch, Kelly and Miley to take big steps forward in their careers next year.
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Post by bigbatter on Dec 10, 2014 23:42:46 GMT -5
NL West is a pitcher's haven for the California teams, but no so much at Chase. And Coors. You conveniently forgot to mention Dodger Stadium, ATT Park, and Petco Park three of the best stadiums in the league for pitchers. Collectively, the ballparks in the NL West are a lot more pitcher-friendly than those ballparks in the AL East. It's not even debatable. Moving on.
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Post by jmei on Dec 10, 2014 23:44:04 GMT -5
You conveniently forgot to mention Dodger Stadium, ATT Park, and Petco Park three of the best stadiums in the league for pitchers. Collectively, the ballparks in the NL West are a lot more pitcher-friendly than those ballparks in the AL East. We have these great stats that adjust for home ballpark. Some of us have been citing them.
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Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Dec 10, 2014 23:45:16 GMT -5
I despise this deal.
Ruby is a better pitcher today than Mikey is with more controllability.
All he needed was a chance to show it.
It doubt the sox will have success developing any of their young talent as most will struggle at some point.
barnes Owens and Johnson better be near perfect fron the start or this team will give up on them as well.
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Post by bigbatter on Dec 10, 2014 23:45:58 GMT -5
You conveniently forgot to mention Dodger Stadium, ATT Park, and Petco Park three of the best stadiums in the league for pitchers. Collectively, the ballparks in the NL West are a lot more pitcher-friendly than those ballparks in the AL East. We have these great stats that adjust for home ballpark. Some of us have been citing them. I'm aware. Apparently some aren't. Thanks.
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Post by bigbatter on Dec 10, 2014 23:47:03 GMT -5
I despise this deal. Ruby is a better pitcher today than Mikey is with more controllability. All he needed was a chance to show it. It doubt the sox will have success developing any of their young talent as most will struggle at some point. barnes Owens and Johnson better be near perfect fron the start or this team will give up on them as well. Finally, someone I can say that I agree with on this topic. Well said. This deal makes me sick.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 10, 2014 23:47:07 GMT -5
RDLR has shown the potential to have 5 game stints of great pitching. Miley has shown the potential to have an entire season of great pitching. He had 3.5 bWAR / 4.4 fWAR in 2012. If this was 2012 after the season Miley had I would love this trade. Problem is Miley stats have gone down for two straight years, this is 2014, not 2012. ESPN has Miley at .8 WAR last year in 33 starts, they also have Rubby at .4 WAR in 18 starts last year. Rubby did have 5 game stints of good pitching, wore down towards the end of the year. Not surprising based on inning limit last year due to coming back from tommy john surgery. I just can't understand this trade, Rubby was one of the young pitchers I really liked. He showed he can pitch in the majors. Wouldn't be surprised to see Rubby have a better year next year then Miley. I understand that Rubby is still unproven, but his upside is very high (#3 starter). Webster has upside due to his great stuff, but not sure he ever becomes anything.
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Post by redsox4242 on Dec 10, 2014 23:47:39 GMT -5
Miley walked 75 batters last season, this is the best we could do? ? Ben has had a horrible year.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,976
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Post by cdj on Dec 10, 2014 23:48:30 GMT -5
We gave up 3 prospects for this stiff? wow. I am especially pissed we gave up Rubby. 4 years in the bigs: 38-35 3.79 FIP: 3.79 K/9, BB/9: 7.0, 2.9 In a hitters park. But yeah, what a "stiff"
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 10, 2014 23:50:56 GMT -5
I despise this deal. Ruby is a better pitcher today than Mikey is with more controllability. All he needed was a chance to show it. It doubt the sox will have success developing any of their young talent as most will struggle at some point. barnes Owens and Johnson better be near perfect fron the start or this team will give up on them as well. That is not even close to being true. Again, are the Red Sox trying to win games, or are they trying to develop marginal talent? They can't have it both ways.
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Post by bigbatter on Dec 10, 2014 23:51:55 GMT -5
Miley walked 75 batters last season, this is the best we could do? ? Ben has had a horrible year. but he's going to provide us with 200 invaluable innings of 4+ERA and give up a hit/walk to almost 3 batters every 2 innings.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 10, 2014 23:53:31 GMT -5
Do people really just not grok how bad Webster and RDLR have been when given chances at the MLB level?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 10, 2014 23:53:57 GMT -5
I despise this deal. Ruby is a better pitcher today than Mikey is with more controllability. All he needed was a chance to show it. It doubt the sox will have success developing any of their young talent as most will struggle at some point. barnes Owens and Johnson better be near perfect fron the start or this team will give up on them as well. That is not even close to being true. Again, are the Red Sox trying to win games, or are they trying to develop marginal talent? They can't have it both ways. I don't think Ruby is a marginal talent. Has a high ceiling (#3 starter) and showed flashes last year that he can be a good pitcher.
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