SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
2015 HOF class; The line forms behind Pedro
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 9, 2015 8:05:52 GMT -5
Um, really? Everyone knows steroids stop working after the media finds out you tested positive. That must be what keeps David Ortiz out of these conversations (career high OPS+ at age 36). However, his slugging % wasn't .863, or .257 higher than his career average at age 36.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 9, 2015 8:38:27 GMT -5
But look at how well notorious juicer Alex Rodriguez has aged. Look at how PEDs are no longer allowed.Oh that's weird because I still hear accusations of PED use thrown at players all the time.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 9, 2015 8:43:19 GMT -5
Look at how PEDs are no longer allowed. Oh that's weird because I still hear accusations of PED use thrown at players all the time. Which must mean that nothing has changed at all? C'mon.
|
|
TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
|
Post by TX on Jan 9, 2015 10:01:31 GMT -5
Bonds never failed a test, Clemens never failed a test, Arod never failed a test. Given those examples, isn't it apparent that usage can be masked, and because it can be, there are many still using?
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 9, 2015 10:09:26 GMT -5
This PED pissing match sucks. If you want to continue it, please take it to off-topic or throwdown or something. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by zimmerdown on Jan 9, 2015 22:06:20 GMT -5
The Daily Beast had an article about Schilling claiming that he was robbed because he is a Republican. I actually didn't hear the whole radio bit, so I didn't actually know that he was (supposedly) speaking in jest before I went off on my anti-Schilling rant..but if you say something as a joke and everyone believes it, it probably wasn't a great joke. People believe that is something he would say.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 9, 2015 23:11:02 GMT -5
Crazy prediction: those who already like Schilling will use this as an example that people are predisposed against him, people who already dislike him will say he's covering his tracks with an "I was just kidding!" excuse because his rant made him sound like an insane person.
|
|
|
Post by brianthetaoist on Jan 10, 2015 9:02:32 GMT -5
Crazy prediction: those who already like Schilling will use this as an example that people are predisposed against him, people who already dislike him will say he's covering his tracks with an "I was just kidding!" excuse because his rant made him sound like an insane person. Or, if you are so inclined, you could just add "terrible sense of humor" to the list of negative qualities ... Anyway, back to the positive, reading this piece by Peter Abraham made me think again on how warm the relationship was between Pedro and the city even when he played (and it's only gotten warmer since) ... and led to this question in my mind: Is Pedro the most beloved Sox player ever? Ted Williams had a more complicated relationship with the city (and especially the writers), Jim Rice certainly wasn't on the same level, Fred Lynn and Carlton Fisk were really popular but spent most of their careers elsewhere ... maybe Yaz comes close? In fact, I'd probably put Pedro in the upper pantheon of all Boston athletes with Bobby Orr, Larry Bird, and maybe now Tom Brady ... guys who were all-time greats with almost universal love from the fans during their time in the city and growing reputation after that. Maybe Williams belongs there, too. Big Papi may be close, too, but he's not as good a player as the rest of those guys; he's probably more like Yaz.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 10, 2015 12:55:26 GMT -5
Ray Bourque should go on that list too. Boston held a rally for him for winning the Stanley Cup with a different team!
|
|
|
Post by pedroelgrande on Jan 10, 2015 16:03:59 GMT -5
Pedro El Grande got a hero's welcome in D.R today.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 13, 2015 4:06:08 GMT -5
Crazy prediction: those who already like Schilling will use this as an example that people are predisposed against him, people who already dislike him will say he's covering his tracks with an "I was just kidding!" excuse because his rant made him sound like an insane person. Or, if you are so inclined, you could just add "terrible sense of humor" to the list of negative qualities ... Anyway, back to the positive, reading this piece by Peter Abraham made me think again on how warm the relationship was between Pedro and the city even when he played (and it's only gotten warmer since) ... and led to this question in my mind: Is Pedro the most beloved Sox player ever? Ted Williams had a more complicated relationship with the city (and especially the writers), Jim Rice certainly wasn't on the same level, Fred Lynn and Carlton Fisk were really popular but spent most of their careers elsewhere ... maybe Yaz comes close? In fact, I'd probably put Pedro in the upper pantheon of all Boston athletes with Bobby Orr, Larry Bird, and maybe now Tom Brady ... guys who were all-time greats with almost universal love from the fans during their time in the city and growing reputation after that. Maybe Williams belongs there, too. Big Papi may be close, too, but he's not as good a player as the rest of those guys; he's probably more like Yaz. It took a long time for the Sox fans to warm up to Yaz. In spite of how good he was, he was following Teddy Ballgame. My opinion is that Pedro is pretty much the most popular Red Sox player in my lifetime. By the way, I think that of Mickey Mantle in New York and Ripkin Jr. in Baltimore. Toronto and Tampa aren't important in terms of historical perspective. Mantle had to push aside Joe Dimagio and Ripkin, Brooks Robinson. ADD: I'm not so sure you can add Bobby Orr to that list (In terms of public popularity). He was an incredibly reserved person both in public and in private. Sanderson pretty much got all the press (Boston's answer to Namath). Phil Esposito was the most vocal but beat writers didn't like interviewing him because he couldn't complete a sentence without dropping at least one f*bomb, he was a bit like the boisterous drunk at a party except non-stop. Cashman, Busyc and Hodge were similar to the brothers in the Paul Newman hockey movie and and Teddy Greene and Don Aurey were the team "in crowd".
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 13, 2015 8:56:44 GMT -5
It probably helps that Pedro didn't stick around for his Mets years. His worst bWAR season was 5.1 with us.
|
|
|
Post by brianthetaoist on Jan 13, 2015 12:53:56 GMT -5
Or, if you are so inclined, you could just add "terrible sense of humor" to the list of negative qualities ... Anyway, back to the positive, reading this piece by Peter Abraham made me think again on how warm the relationship was between Pedro and the city even when he played (and it's only gotten warmer since) ... and led to this question in my mind: Is Pedro the most beloved Sox player ever? Ted Williams had a more complicated relationship with the city (and especially the writers), Jim Rice certainly wasn't on the same level, Fred Lynn and Carlton Fisk were really popular but spent most of their careers elsewhere ... maybe Yaz comes close? In fact, I'd probably put Pedro in the upper pantheon of all Boston athletes with Bobby Orr, Larry Bird, and maybe now Tom Brady ... guys who were all-time greats with almost universal love from the fans during their time in the city and growing reputation after that. Maybe Williams belongs there, too. Big Papi may be close, too, but he's not as good a player as the rest of those guys; he's probably more like Yaz. It took a long time for the Sox fans to warm up to Yaz. In spite of how good he was, he was following Teddy Ballgame. My opinion is that Pedro is pretty much the most popular Red Sox player in my lifetime. By the way, I think that of Mickey Mantle in New York and Ripkin Jr. in Baltimore. Toronto and Tampa aren't important in terms of historical perspective. Mantle had to push aside Joe Dimagio and Ripkin, Brooks Robinson. ADD: I'm not so sure you can add Bobby Orr to that list (In terms of public popularity). He was an incredibly reserved person both in public and in private. Sanderson pretty much got all the press (Boston's answer to Namath). Phil Esposito was the most vocal but beat writers didn't like interviewing him because he couldn't complete a sentence without dropping at least one f*bomb, he was a bit like the boisterous drunk at a party except non-stop. Cashman, Busyc and Hodge were similar to the brothers in the Paul Newman hockey movie and and Teddy Greene and Don Aurey were the team "in crowd". Really? I didn't really clue into the Bruins until the Bourque days, but my friends and family talk of Orr with hushed tones ... one of my good friends' first words were, "Bobba Orr." I'd say of the retired players, he's spoken of most reverently among the folks I know. Maybe even more than Bird ... and Teddy Ballgame is a little too old, not enough people saw him anymore. I always sorta assumed Orr was as god-like popular then as he seemed to be later. Btw, Bourque's an interesting one. He's not as flashy as the others and probably not quite as good, but I don't know another player as universally respected in Boston as Bourque. I don't think anyone ever had anything bad to say about the guy, which is unbelievably rare in a place like Boston. He also sorta became the fan's symbol of the negative feelings toward the Bruins ownership back in those days. It's a good point about Yaz, though. It wasn't until later in his career that he got to that level ... he's clearly below Pedro, and maybe below Papi because everyone LOVES Big Papi. This is all subjective, but there's still over a month to pitchers-and-catchers ...
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 13, 2015 14:02:02 GMT -5
It took a long time for the Sox fans to warm up to Yaz. In spite of how good he was, he was following Teddy Ballgame. My opinion is that Pedro is pretty much the most popular Red Sox player in my lifetime. By the way, I think that of Mickey Mantle in New York and Ripkin Jr. in Baltimore. Toronto and Tampa aren't important in terms of historical perspective. Mantle had to push aside Joe Dimagio and Ripkin, Brooks Robinson. ADD: I'm not so sure you can add Bobby Orr to that list (In terms of public popularity). He was an incredibly reserved person both in public and in private. Sanderson pretty much got all the press (Boston's answer to Namath). Phil Esposito was the most vocal but beat writers didn't like interviewing him because he couldn't complete a sentence without dropping at least one f*bomb, he was a bit like the boisterous drunk at a party except non-stop. Cashman, Busyc and Hodge were similar to the brothers in the Paul Newman hockey movie and and Teddy Greene and Don Aurey were the team "in crowd". Really? I didn't really clue into the Bruins until the Bourque days, but my friends and family talk of Orr with hushed tones ... one of my good friends' first words were, "Bobba Orr." I'd say of the retired players, he's spoken of most reverently among the folks I know. Maybe even more than Bird ... and Teddy Ballgame is a little too old, not enough people saw him anymore. I always sorta assumed Orr was as god-like popular then as he seemed to be later. Btw, Bourque's an interesting one. He's not as flashy as the others and probably not quite as good, but I don't know another player as universally respected in Boston as Bourque. I don't think anyone ever had anything bad to say about the guy, which is unbelievably rare in a place like Boston. He also sorta became the fan's symbol of the negative feelings toward the Bruins ownership back in those days. It's a good point about Yaz, though. It wasn't until later in his career that he got to that level ... he's clearly below Pedro, and maybe below Papi because everyone LOVES Big Papi. This is all subjective, but there's still over a month to pitchers-and-catchers ... Orr's private life being private squares with what I've heard, but yeah, I'd always understood Orr to be an absolute phenomenon among the fans. My father was a season ticket holder at that time and used to talk about it. Wasn't Orr basically the reason rinks sprouted up in New England at that point?
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 13, 2015 14:04:39 GMT -5
Orr was definitely behind the huge surge in youth hockey in Boston and the reason why Boston area players started getting into the NHL.
I was a Bruins fan for awhile until I moved away from NE (late 80s). I really appreciated Ray Bourque, but I LOVED Cam Neely.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 13, 2015 21:45:00 GMT -5
Orr was much more than that, he totally revolutionized the entire game. Check out defensemen scoring stats before and after Bobby arrived. It's no mistake that he was overwhelmingly voted the all time greatest hockey player by the members of the Hockey Hall of fame and that was after Gretsky retired.
The category though was fan popularity, Orr was quiet and reserved, he wasn't the mega-media star Pedro is. I'm not saying Orr was at all unpopular, I'm saying media wasn't his strong suit or likely his interest.
ADD: Prior to Orr, the Bruins were annual cellar dwellers. In order for the Bruins to even be able to draft him, they drafted him when he was 13. At the time, the Canadians had the first pick every draft every year by agreement and had that advantage for about 40 years. The Bruins were not an overwhelmingly popular sports team, particularly since they were playing in the same building that had a team with six future hall of famers in their five.
Prior to Orr, defensemen were rarely covered, they rarely went past the blue line. That allowed defenses to crowd the crease. By having to cover Orr, it opened up the center for big centers like Esposito to deposit themselves up close one on one and big forwards like Hodge, Cashman and Busyc to dig the corners and pass to Esposito. Entirely different game.
After their very first meeting, the Great Gordie Howe had a famous quote. 'We're going to have to change the game. We'll need two pucks. One for Bobby Orr, one for everyone else.' [paraphrased]
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 13, 2015 23:37:30 GMT -5
Ray, I think you might be confusing "media savvy" for popularity. I think most of us are referring to the latter and you're talking more about the former.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 14, 2015 0:04:18 GMT -5
I'm referring to 'popularity' which is primarily media driven. Pedro was much more in the news or talked about than Orr and the 2000ish Red Sox were much more talked about than the Bruins at the time. It's not a question of who is the better player relative to their sport or a question of knowledgeable fans who knew what they were looking at. For all intents and purposes, Pedro would sell a lot more cars in a commercial than Bobby Orr. During the early years, Bobby could have walked down the streets of Boston and the average Bostonian sports fan wouldn't have known who he was.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Jan 14, 2015 6:03:10 GMT -5
I'm referring to 'popularity' which is primarily media driven. Pedro was much more in the news or talked about than Orr and the 2000ish Red Sox were much more talked about than the Bruins at the time. It's not a question of who is the better player relative to their sport or a question of knowledgeable fans who knew what they were looking at. For all intents and purposes, Pedro would sell a lot more cars in a commercial than Bobby Orr. During the early years, Bobby could have walked down the streets of Boston and the average Bostonian sports fan wouldn't have known who he was. What you are basically dying is comparing the amount of media in existence in the year 2000 to the amount of media in existence in 1970. In 2000 there was cable TV and the Internet, so there were reporters covering Pedro. There were also more reporters covering every other Boston athelte.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 14, 2015 7:22:34 GMT -5
I'm meaning it proportionately. Derek Sanderson on his own team got more media attention and was very popular with the fans, local celebrity status. Bobby Orr was a very quiet, reserved person both in public and in private. Some athletes are more 'popular' based on personality than others. Kevin Millar vs Bill Mueller, for example. I am in no implying that Bobby Orr was unpopular, he was just less visible to almost extremes.
I want to be clear here, I'm in no way saying he was an ass or that people didn't like him. He was just a very reserved person.
ADD: Because it's off season, if the mods want to delete it feel free cause it's way off topic.
Sports was quite different back then and more than proportionately so. Using hockey as the example, most of the Bruins were Canadian and married. Most didn't earn enough income to have their families in Boston during the season. Most didn't earn enough money to own two houses. Sanderson is the only one that I know of that was single and Don Awrey was the only one who lived in Mass with his wife (she was from Waltham). If you look at their schedules back then, there was a lot of days at home where there were no games. Most of the team pretty much socialized together but that didn't mean a bunch of wild and crazy parties, these were primarily blue collar straight laced ordinary folk that didn't want to spend all their spare time sitting alone in an apartment. By far and away, the greatest majority of media face time for any of them was post game interviews with either the newspapers or the sports segments on the nightly news. Guys that were't overly vocal or controversial didn't get a lot of interviews.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 20, 2015 1:35:00 GMT -5
Jayson Stark, over at ESPN, with an angry piece about how truly f^#*@d up the voting system, and by proxy the HOF voters, really are. It's hard to see, at this point, how this can ever be made right. The devaluation of batting statistics from the last decade and a half has been complete. I guess it's all intuition from here on out. What else is there?
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 22, 2015 11:08:56 GMT -5
Its official, Pedro wearing a Red Sox cap to the Hall.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 22, 2015 13:09:03 GMT -5
The only acceptable alternative would've if both he and Johnson had worn Expos caps together in a show of solidarity.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 23, 2015 12:47:47 GMT -5
The only acceptable alternative would've if both he and Johnson had worn Expos caps together in a show of solidarity. Johnson actually has an interesting choice. First Mariner or first Diamonback.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 23, 2015 13:00:51 GMT -5
The only acceptable alternative would've if both he and Johnson had worn Expos caps together in a show of solidarity. Johnson actually has an interesting choice. First Mariner or first Diamonback. He already picked Diamondbacks. Makes sense - won a WS with them, and four Cys versus just one in Seattle. By the way, I'd completely forgotten just how dominant he was. In addition to 5 Cy Youngs, he was second three times and third once. And four of the Cys came from ages 35-38. Wow.
|
|
|