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2015 Official Spring Training thread
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Post by michael on Feb 26, 2015 14:30:37 GMT -5
Tim Britton ?@timbritton 2 min. Farrell: It's likely that Victorino will swing left-handed in games. After 90% of the Sox headed to the showers this morning, Victorino took an additional 50 BP swings left handed. Didn't get a chance to ask him if he was testing or committed to batting lh.
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Post by moonstone2 on Feb 26, 2015 16:39:46 GMT -5
Like I said. I am pretty sure that Ogando still has options left. Ogando wasn't hurt, he was banned from entering the United States for five years because he fraudulently married someone so they could obtain visa status. Now Padres G.M. Proeller convinced the Rangers to take him in the Rule Five Draft with the stipulation that he convert to pitching. He was ineligible in 2006 and placed on the restricted list for the 07, 08 and 09 seasons and that is the likely reason he wasn't on BA's depth chart in 07 and 08. Players on the restricted list cannot be optioned to the minors, thus Ogando didn't use any options during that time period. Ogando finally obtained a visa in 2010 and was removed from the restricted list for that season. After that he was only optioned to the minors once, in 2010, and thus should have two options remaining and less than five years of big league service time. www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3828171.htmlThis is also incorrect. Unlike position players and starters, relievers roles are fungible. That means that a pitcher who is pitching very well in mop up duty will likely pitch more and in higher leverage situations over time. Further projecting the delta between two possible relief alternatives is much harder. Your insinuation that a team with a $190M payroll should trade away a good reliever in exchange for a small payroll reduction makes no sense. They gain nothing for that and thus have no reason to trade Mujica unless they get a player that will make the team better.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 26, 2015 16:44:02 GMT -5
Agree with moonstone about not trading Mujica. If Cherington can horde depth in the minors, he will. But I don't want to go through what we did last year without having the flexibility to send down a bullpen guy with options for a spot starter.
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Post by moonstone2 on Feb 26, 2015 16:51:53 GMT -5
Agree with moonstone about not trading Mujica. If Cherington can horde depth in the minors, he will. But I don't want to go through what we did last year without having the flexibility to send down a bullpen guy with options for a spot starter. If I am correct about Ogando having options, they will have at least one bullpen pitcher with options. As at least one of Ogando, Layne, or Ross will end up on the team.
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Post by moonstone2 on Feb 26, 2015 16:59:57 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is assuming that.
Just that we'll know one way or the other by the end of spring training. If he's getting bombed the decision is easy.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 26, 2015 23:18:48 GMT -5
Agree with moonstone about not trading Mujica. If Cherington can horde depth in the minors, he will. But I don't want to go through what we did last year without having the flexibility to send down a bullpen guy with options for a spot starter. If I am correct about Ogando having options, they will have at least one bullpen pitcher with options. As at least one of Ogando, Layne, or Ross will end up on the team. Ogando doesn't have options, the 40 man listing is not correct. What eric said about that checks with the Baseball-reference page but you need to do a lot of digging to find the A's outfielder stuff. The issue of being overcrowded comes up if Boggs is healthy and looking good. The issue of not having a spot starter comes up with or without Boggs unless the Sox use Ogando or Ross in that role. The issue of one lefty comes up if they use Ross' option.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,935
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 26, 2015 23:24:37 GMT -5
Like I said. I am pretty sure that Ogando still has options left. Ogando wasn't hurt, he was banned from entering the United States for five years because he fraudulently married someone so they could obtain visa status. Now Padres G.M. Proeller convinced the Rangers to take him in the Rule Five Draft with the stipulation that he convert to pitching. He was ineligible in 2006 and placed on the restricted list for the 07, 08 and 09 seasons and that is the likely reason he wasn't on BA's depth chart in 07 and 08. Players on the restricted list cannot be optioned to the minors, thus Ogando didn't use any options during that time period. Ogando finally obtained a visa in 2010 and was removed from the restricted list for that season. After that he was only optioned to the minors once, in 2010, and thus should have two options remaining and less than five years of big league service time. www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3828171.htmlReally interesting background. But I believe the evidence suggests he's out of options. He pitched in the DSL in 2006, 2007, and 2009, and the "restricted list" is plain and simply for inactive players. I don't see any reason why pitching in the DSL wouldn't count as being active. This story says Ogando was placed on the restricted list on March 13, 2007 (strongly implying "for the first time"), so given that he pitched in the DSL in 2006, it seems very likely that he was optioned that year. Baseball Prospectus has three early transactions for him. The first two are "reinstated to the major league roster" on 6/1/09, and "assigned to the DSL" on 7/1/09. And he did pitch 10 games for the DSL Rangers. That clearly seems to be a second option year. He must have been put back on the restricted list sometime after the end of the DSL winter league in mid-December, and in fact the Rangers signed a bunch of MLB FA (Vlad Guerroro, Colby Lewis, etc.) after that date and would have needed the roster space. All sources agree that he was reinstated from the restricted list on 2/22/10 (move not counting against the 40-man till opening day), so that he could later be optioned to AA. That would be three options. But wait, there's more. When he was reinstated on 2/22/10, BP says that he went on the restricted list on 2/26. Which makes no sense, unless they mean 2/26 of some other year. We know he pitched in 2007 and didn't pitch in 2008, so could they mean 2/26/08? Well, he was re-signed to a 1-year deal on 2/25. Furthermore, if he went on the restricted list on 3/3/07, but pitched later that year, he must have come off it. And if you look at the Rangers' 40-man roster situation that year, they apparently had a full one until the trade deadline, when they cleared two spots via the Saltalamacchia and Gagne trades plus a DFA. That would have cleared the room to add Ogando back on. I don't know if there's any way to determine what the rules were for acquiring a fourth option year under the old CBA, but it's reasonable to think the Rangers got one for him. But there's hard evidence for him being optioned three times, in any case. There was nothing banning him from pitching, just from playing in this country. That ban made it reasonable for the Rangers to put him on the restricted list whenever they chose, and they seem to have used it in the first halves of 2007 and 2009 just to clear a roster spot. Keeping him inactive through all of '08 seems designed to save an option and synch up the expiration date of the ban with when they expected him to be MLB-ready. To sum up, it looks like the following. Bold is hard evidence for, italics no evidence to the contrary, the rest conclusions backed by circumstantial evidence. 2006 optioned to DSL2007 Restricted list 3/13 to c. 7/31; optioned to DSL 2008 Restricted list from 2/26 2009 Restricted, then active and optioned 6/1 to about 12/20, then restricted again2010 Activated 2/22, optioned.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 26, 2015 23:34:58 GMT -5
One other Boggs factor that hasn't been discussed:
If he's not healthy (ie, not throwing like he used to), he's not a factor.
If he is though, he has an opt out at season start and if he's looking good, he really doesn't need to sit in Pawtucket to find work, it's use him or lose him.
If we use him, he's not on the 40 man, somebody has to go anyways.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 27, 2015 1:05:20 GMT -5
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 27, 2015 8:26:54 GMT -5
Tim Britton ?@timbritton 2 min. Buchholz and Porcello to pitch against Northeastern. Miley against BC. Joe Kelly gets Grapefruit League opener against Minnesota.
Barring any injuries, I would guess this will be the regular season sequence as well. I think Buchholz will get the opening day start. However undeserving, also rather trivial.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 27, 2015 8:44:07 GMT -5
Tim Britton ?@timbritton 2 min. Buchholz and Porcello to pitch against Northeastern. Miley against BC. Joe Kelly gets Grapefruit League opener against Minnesota. Barring any injuries, I would guess this will be the regular season sequence as well. I think Buchholz will get the opening day start. However undeserving, also rather trivial. And interestingly, season start, Ortiz at first base, against a lefty starter no less.
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Post by moonstone2 on Feb 27, 2015 10:03:55 GMT -5
Actually it's not. The 2010 option was the first and only option used. Ogando was taken in the AAA portion of the 2005 Rule Five Draft not the Major League portion and thus was not required to be placed on the 40 man roster. That's how they were able to assign him to the DSL three times and still option him in 2010. Had he been taken in the major league portion of the draft, the Rangers would not have been able to assign Ogando to the DSL without first offering him back to the A's. It's a fair conclusion that they used the restricted list over the winter and for part of the season to keep him from being taken in the Rule Five draft and from accruing enough service time to leave as a minor league free agent. If you look at the transactions on the MLB.com transactions page, you will notice that the words "option" and "reinstated to the major league roster" are never used. That's because Ogando was not reinstated to the major league 40 man roster and was thus was not optioned until 2010. Further, according to several articles, the Rangers considered optioning Ogando in 2011 but decided against it to keep him eligible for the All-Star game. He hasn't been optioned since then so if he could be optioned in 2011, he can be optioned now because he doesn't have five years of major league service time. www.dallasnews.com/sports/texas-rangers/20110706-ogando-could-be-headed-to-minors-or-to-all-star-game-by-week_s-end.eceI think the evidence shows that he has options remaining. In light of this it makes more sense that they would choose Ogando who has options over Britton or Badenhop who do not.
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 27, 2015 10:14:10 GMT -5
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Post by moonstone2 on Feb 27, 2015 10:15:41 GMT -5
Also note, Ogando has 4 years and 114 days of service time, which means he must accrue 61 days of service time to reach five years which would give him the right to refuse an option to the minors. That happens on June 6th, so the Sox can option him at any time before then.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 27, 2015 11:20:59 GMT -5
Jason Mastrodonato ?@jmastrodonato 1h1 hour ago Porcello said the Tigers work hard too, but he couldn't believe the focus level in Red Sox camp. Said nobody here takes it easy. . . . Jason Mastrodonato ?@jmastrodonato 6m6 minutes ago My first story for @bostonherald: Why Pablo Sandoval's glove will help the Red Sox www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/boston_red_sox/2015/02/why_pablo_sandovals_glove_will_help_red_sox … Jason Mastrodonato ?@jmastrodonato 5m5 minutes ago Amazing: Sandoval the only 245-pounder under 6-feet tall in at least 100 years to play the hot corner regularly, according to @baseball_ref.
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Post by stevedillard on Feb 28, 2015 13:44:49 GMT -5
start playing the games already. I can't wait for Moncada's daily update from Salem starting April 4th. I imagine once it warms up north he'll be promoted to Portland, where he'll start tattooing balls off the Black monster.
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Post by larrycook on Feb 28, 2015 16:31:44 GMT -5
start playing the games already. I can't wait for Moncada's daily update from Salem starting April 4th. I imagine once it warms up north he'll be promoted to Portland, where he'll start tattooing balls off the Black monster. where does moncada play? Second base is stacked, pedroia, betts, coyle. Short is stacked, bogey and marrero. 3rd has a new player on a long term deal. And checchini blocked. The outfield?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 28, 2015 16:43:03 GMT -5
start playing the games already. I can't wait for Moncada's daily update from Salem starting April 4th. I imagine once it warms up north he'll be promoted to Portland, where he'll start tattooing balls off the Black monster. where does moncada play? Second base is stacked, pedroia, betts, coyle. Short is stacked, bogey and marrero. 3rd has a new player on a long term deal. And c hecchini blocked. The outfield? He's currently penciled in at 3B in Salem. As far as Portland goes, the current roster projection has Mike Miller, who's seen as more of a utility infielder, holding down that position. I really don't see much of a problem here. He won't be showing up in Boston or Pawtucket this year.
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Post by jmei on Feb 28, 2015 17:07:42 GMT -5
A random tidbit that caught me by surprise ( link): As a comparison, Andrew Luck ran the 40 in 4.67 and Donta Hightower clocked in at 4.68. Just a reminder that even the best baseball athletes still compare poorly to those in the NFL.
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Post by jchang on Feb 28, 2015 17:29:29 GMT -5
You would probably run faster when jj watt or clay matthews was gunning for you.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Feb 28, 2015 17:54:39 GMT -5
A random tidbit that caught me by surprise ( link): As a comparison, Andrew Luck ran the 40 in 4.67 and Donta Hightower clocked in at 4.68. Just a reminder that even the best baseball athletes still compare poorly to those in the NFL. There's probably not an athletic league in the world that you couldn't say that about. There's not too many guys in the Premier League who could beat Gronk in a 40, and he could certainly beat the living crap out of any of them. The NFL is the pinnacle of a huge sports complex that ruthlessly selects for athletic abilities more than it does for skill. Although I also don't think the Sox have any real burners right now ... Mookie's more quick than fast. They're a pretty athletic team in the sense that Napoli's a good athlete, but not in the weight/speed type of NFL sense.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 28, 2015 18:05:42 GMT -5
A random tidbit that caught me by surprise ( link): As a comparison, Andrew Luck ran the 40 in 4.67 and Donta Hightower clocked in at 4.68. Just a reminder that even the best baseball athletes still compare poorly to those in the NFL. There's probably not an athletic league in the world that you couldn't say that about. There's not too many guys in the Premier League who could beat Gronk in a 40, and he could certainly beat the living crap out of any of them. The NFL is the pinnacle of a huge sports complex that ruthlessly selects for athletic abilities more than it does for skill. Although I also don't think the Sox have any real burners right now ... Mookie's more quick than fast. They're a pretty athletic team in the sense that Napoli's a good athlete, but not in the weight/speed type of NFL sense. Just to add on, a lot of NFL prospects train for the combine/pro day workouts. These guys have been coached on how to run the 40 (stance, etc) and other various tests. Also, NFL players are built much differently than athletes in pretty much any other sport. Short area burst and explosiveness is key. I do agree with Jmei's overall point that NFL athletes>MLB athletes, but I don't think a 40 time is a good indicator of pure athleticism (a lot of times it isn't even a great indicator of NFL-level talent).
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Feb 28, 2015 18:11:38 GMT -5
Do they even time the 40 the same way in baseball as football ?
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Post by jmei on Feb 28, 2015 18:28:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I should have mentioned the caveats that NFL prospects undergo extensive training for the 40 prior to the combine, while these Red Sox players are doing it just for a lark during Spring Training. Hand-timed 40s also have a significant margin for error.
That said, if you asked me to guess Betts' 40 time, I would have said closer to 4.5. Good reminder that he's quicker than he is fast, I guess.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 28, 2015 18:32:34 GMT -5
Mike Napoli has some of the best reactions I've seen for a first baseman, agile, very quick, and with well-timed leaps. Foot speed is not the same as quickness or reaction time. Larry Bird was slow afoot and blindingly fast with his reactions, one of the "quickest" athletes I've ever watched. He had the classic sixth sense, stealing balls like a pick-pocket, driving while seamlessly switching hands and direction - leaving defenders in the dust, and passing behind his back, and even into his blind spots, in an instant. He would do stuff I never realized was even there for the doing. Here's Chili Davis' take on Betts, from a Gammons post about the Sox talent pool and how they've approached the International market: Something to go with that foot-speed.
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