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2015-2016 International Signing Period
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 2, 2015 12:40:30 GMT -5
If we can get two prospects rated that highly with our spending limits, I'd make Romero our GM. Greg, they never say anything especially Shawnessey about how good they are with Romero Jr. I'm think Romero as our GM and Alex Cora managing in the not too distant future.
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Post by jmei on Jul 2, 2015 12:43:39 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. They can't give more than $300K to any one player, so instead they sign him for $300K and then sign five of his friends/other fringy prospects with the same trainer for $300K, and those five guys give most of their bonuses to the legit prospect so he gets what he would have gotten otherwise. This sort of thing is an open secret on the IFA stage, and the Red Sox have done similar things before (Bogaertses, Basabes, Carlos Mesa). Kiley McDaniel and Ben Badler have discussed the phenomenon extensively, though they don't mention the Red Sox specifically (McDaniel does it in his most recent podcast).
I'm not saying they're bad people for doing it. I'm not even sure it's strictly speaking impermissible (there are rules against trying to circumvent the caps, but they're more aimed at under-the-table-type payments, whereas this might be more of a gray area loophole). But when they sign 20 random Venezualans for $300K a pop, well, this is probably why, and their ability to sign highly-rated guys for $300K is not just brilliant scouting.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 2, 2015 12:54:35 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. As long as he doesn't give em 5/95m or extends em for 4/82.5m, I'm cool.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 2, 2015 13:01:58 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. They can't give more than $300K to any one player, so instead they sign him for $300K and then sign five of his friends/other fringy prospects with the same trainer for $300K, and those five guys give most of their bonuses to the legit prospect so he gets what he would have gotten otherwise. This sort of thing is an open secret on the IFA stage, and the Red Sox have done similar things before (Bogaertses, Basabes, Carlos Mesa). Kiley McDaniel and Ben Badler have discussed the phenomenon extensively, though they don't mention the Red Sox specifically (McDaniel does it in his most recent podcast). I'm not saying they're bad people for doing it. I'm not even sure it's strictly speaking impermissible (there are rules against trying to circumvent the caps, but they're more aimed at under-the-table-type payments, whereas this might be more of a gray area loophole). But when they sign 20 random Venezualans for $300K a pop, well, this is probably why, and their ability to sign highly-rated guys for $300K is not just brilliant scouting. You may be right, but so far, aren't these guys we're hearing about legit prospects? Hard to argue chicanery yet if they're just getting bargains in VZ - or even overpaying a bit for legit prospects. Look at all the guys on the DSL teams that got no bonus (and some of them doing very well).
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Jul 2, 2015 13:12:46 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. They can't give more than $300K to any one player, so instead they sign him for $300K and then sign five of his friends/other fringy prospects with the same trainer for $300K, and those five guys give most of their bonuses to the legit prospect so he gets what he would have gotten otherwise. This sort of thing is an open secret on the IFA stage, and the Red Sox have done similar things before (Bogaertses, Basabes, Carlos Mesa). Kiley McDaniel and Ben Badler have discussed the phenomenon extensively, though they don't mention the Red Sox specifically (McDaniel does it in his most recent podcast). I'm not saying they're bad people for doing it. I'm not even sure it's strictly speaking impermissible (there are rules against trying to circumvent the caps, but they're more aimed at under-the-table-type payments, whereas this might be more of a gray area loophole). But when they sign 20 random Venezualans for $300K a pop, well, this is probably why, and their ability to sign highly-rated guys for $300K is not just brilliant scouting. The key thing would seem to be whether the other signees actually give the money to the main guy (which could be found out), or he just gets get the status of being the guy who gets big money given to some of his relatives or friends (and for some the ability to help family and friends is what signing for $1M would be).
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Post by jmei on Jul 2, 2015 13:18:41 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. They can't give more than $300K to any one player, so instead they sign him for $300K and then sign five of his friends/other fringy prospects with the same trainer for $300K, and those five guys give most of their bonuses to the legit prospect so he gets what he would have gotten otherwise. This sort of thing is an open secret on the IFA stage, and the Red Sox have done similar things before (Bogaertses, Basabes, Carlos Mesa). Kiley McDaniel and Ben Badler have discussed the phenomenon extensively, though they don't mention the Red Sox specifically (McDaniel does it in his most recent podcast). I'm not saying they're bad people for doing it. I'm not even sure it's strictly speaking impermissible (there are rules against trying to circumvent the caps, but they're more aimed at under-the-table-type payments, whereas this might be more of a gray area loophole). But when they sign 20 random Venezualans for $300K a pop, well, this is probably why, and their ability to sign highly-rated guys for $300K is not just brilliant scouting. You may be right, but so far, aren't these guys we're hearing about legit prospects? Hard to argue chicanery yet if they're just getting bargains in VZ - or even overpaying a bit for legit prospects. Look at all the guys on the DSL teams that got no bonus (and some of them doing very well). Right, because noone has any incentive to report the signing of a bunch of JAGs for $300K. We might not find out about them until a bunch of random names start showing up on the DSL roster next year. Sure, some of them might be legit diamonds in the rough. But some of them will be what I discussed above.
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Post by brnichols19873 on Jul 2, 2015 13:26:12 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. They can't give more than $300K to any one player, so instead they sign him for $300K and then sign five of his friends/other fringy prospects with the same trainer for $300K, and those five guys give most of their bonuses to the legit prospect so he gets what he would have gotten otherwise. This sort of thing is an open secret on the IFA stage, and the Red Sox have done similar things before (Bogaertses, Basabes, Carlos Mesa). Kiley McDaniel and Ben Badler have discussed the phenomenon extensively, though they don't mention the Red Sox specifically (McDaniel does it in his most recent podcast). I'm not saying they're bad people for doing it. I'm not even sure it's strictly speaking impermissible (there are rules against trying to circumvent the caps, but they're more aimed at under-the-table-type payments, whereas this might be more of a gray area loophole). But when they sign 20 random Venezualans for $300K a pop, well, this is probably why, and their ability to sign highly-rated guys for $300K is not just brilliant scouting. here is an excerpt from a June 29th Kiley Mcdaniel article on fangraphs explaining the "Package Deal" process (heres the link to the article: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/signing-july-2nd-players-has-gotten-even-more-complicated/ ) "The Package Deal A new development in this market is the package deal. It’s existed for a long time but now is being used in a different way, as a another tool for a trainer who turned down big money and is trying to save face. Say a trainer turns down a $1.5 million offer for a player in whom he owns a 20% stake and then that player’s market value drops to around $750,000, with multiple teams interested at that number. That trainer can go to the relevant teams and make this first player available for $400,000 in a package deal worth $900,000, where the other $500,000 goes to a few players worth far less than that number. One finds this sort of arrangement when a trainer has a full 35% stake in the contract of those lesser players, having trained them for awhile, but has bought the marquee player from another trainer in the last year or two, giving him a smaller cut of the best player in the group. The numbers vary in real life, but this way, the trainer gets about 80% of the commission he turned down, but would’ve taken home 50% if he just took market value for the single player. This also allows teams in the penalty zone to sign a seven-figure talent if things break just right. There’s a team that will be in the penalty in 2016 (players who can sign 12 months from now) that has a verbal deal with a trainer to sign three players for $300,000 each (the maximum bonus allowed to the team). The one good prospect from that group is good enough that teams not in the penalty next year may top that offer with a seven-figure bonus for only the top player, but if the team in the penalty gives another of the trainer’s players a $300,000 bonus, they can essentially keep upping their offer and give the trainer a better commission than a straight $1.2 million bonus from a team not in the penalty. The bonus money doesn’t automatically get redistributed among the kids according to their talent; in some cases it does, and in others it doesn’t. Scouts from a rival team tell me that some families in package deals expected to be made official later this week are worried that the other, lesser prospects involved in their package deal, who are even poorer than they are, may not share the bonus as they agreed to do."
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tedf
Rookie
Posts: 79
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Post by tedf on Jul 2, 2015 14:16:22 GMT -5
Sounds like a pretty serious loophole! Not that I have any complaint with the outcome in this case.
The whole IFA system is messed up. Guessing we end up with an international draft before long.
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Post by ramireja on Jul 2, 2015 15:10:40 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. They can't give more than $300K to any one player, so instead they sign him for $300K and then sign five of his friends/other fringy prospects with the same trainer for $300K, and those five guys give most of their bonuses to the legit prospect so he gets what he would have gotten otherwise. This sort of thing is an open secret on the IFA stage, and the Red Sox have done similar things before (Bogaertses, Basabes, Carlos Mesa). Kiley McDaniel and Ben Badler have discussed the phenomenon extensively, though they don't mention the Red Sox specifically (McDaniel does it in his most recent podcast). I'm not saying they're bad people for doing it. I'm not even sure it's strictly speaking impermissible (there are rules against trying to circumvent the caps, but they're more aimed at under-the-table-type payments, whereas this might be more of a gray area loophole). But when they sign 20 random Venezualans for $300K a pop, well, this is probably why, and their ability to sign highly-rated guys for $300K is not just brilliant scouting. Haven't we talked about this possibility a lot in this thread?
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Post by soxfanatic on Jul 2, 2015 15:18:48 GMT -5
Jesse Sanchez @jessesanchezmlb 1 min. Teams are acquiring international slot money via trades to lessen or avoid the penalty altogether. I expect Braves, other teams to be busy.
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Post by ramireja on Jul 2, 2015 15:35:29 GMT -5
Jesse Sanchez @jessesanchezmlb 1 min. Teams are acquiring international slot money via trades to lessen or avoid the penalty altogether. I expect Braves, other teams to be busy. and there actually seem to be prospects of moderate standing involved too...Chase De Jong from TOR
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Post by vermontsox1 on Jul 2, 2015 16:04:28 GMT -5
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Post by cba82 on Jul 2, 2015 16:49:40 GMT -5
"McDaniel and Sanchez agree that [Guaimaro] is an aggressive hitter with the potential for a fringe average bat and average power in time." -- Why are we bothering?
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Post by burythehammer on Jul 2, 2015 17:04:08 GMT -5
Well, let's consider some reasons:
1. Possibly, our scouts disagree with that assessment. 2. You don't only sign players who you think have the potential to be superstars. Especially when you're talking about a minimal bonus. 3. They are limited in what they can spend. Would you rather they just say "why bother?" and forgo signing any IFAs for the next two years? 4. A fringe-average hit tool and average power can be a pretty damn good player, depending on the rest of his game.
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Post by GyIantosca on Jul 2, 2015 17:19:12 GMT -5
The Red Sox have agreed to sign 16-year-old Venezuelan shortstop Antonio Pineiro for $300,000.
Pineiro is a defensive-oriented player with good hands and arm strength. At 6-foot-2, 165 pounds, he’s still very skinny, so he’s a below-average runner and a switch-hitter whose offensive game could improve once he gets stronger. Pineiro is represented by Felix Olivo. The Red Sox have agreed to sign 16-year-old Venezuelan shortstop Eduardo Torrealba for $300,000.
Torrealba is just 5-foot-8, 150 pounds, but he’s a smart, instinctive player with feel for hitting from the right side of the plate and the ability to use the whole field. He’s an average runner who may end up at second base. Torrealba trains with Jose Montero. baseball America
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Post by soxfanatic on Jul 2, 2015 17:24:58 GMT -5
So far all five Venezuelan signings are represented by different agents/trainers...
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Post by azblue on Jul 2, 2015 22:33:01 GMT -5
According to Baseball America, the Venezuelan market is depressed because of political unrest (which makes it more challenging to evaluate talent). This may benefit the Red Sox if they feel they have excellent, reliable information on some of these prospects. The Sox may feel comfortable making $300,000 offers to players who might not receive competitive offers from teams who lack the same quality and depth of info.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 3, 2015 6:21:05 GMT -5
Geez, they get younger and younger every year.
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Post by jmei on Jul 3, 2015 8:01:39 GMT -5
Lots of teams have been acquiring international signing pool money, and giving up legitimate prospects to do so: www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/07/rays-acquire-garrett-fulenchek-from-braves.htmlOn one hand, that's something I wish the Red Sox would take advantage of. On the other hand, they might actually spend most of their IFA pool ($3.6m is twelve $300K signings, which is not all that many).
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Post by vermontsox1 on Jul 3, 2015 17:13:50 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 3, 2015 19:25:24 GMT -5
If noone else is going to say it, I will. I suspect there is some chicanery here. They can't give more than $300K to any one player, so instead they sign him for $300K and then sign five of his friends/other fringy prospects with the same trainer for $300K, and those five guys give most of their bonuses to the legit prospect so he gets what he would have gotten otherwise. This sort of thing is an open secret on the IFA stage, and the Red Sox have done similar things before (Bogaertses, Basabes, Carlos Mesa). Kiley McDaniel and Ben Badler have discussed the phenomenon extensively, though they don't mention the Red Sox specifically (McDaniel does it in his most recent podcast). I'm not saying they're bad people for doing it. I'm not even sure it's strictly speaking impermissible (there are rules against trying to circumvent the caps, but they're more aimed at under-the-table-type payments, whereas this might be more of a gray area loophole). But when they sign 20 random Venezualans for $300K a pop, well, this is probably why, and their ability to sign highly-rated guys for $300K is not just brilliant scouting. I really don't have a problem with cheating a system that was itself designed to cheat children in a third-world country out of money. Actually I endorse it.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Jul 4, 2015 9:44:18 GMT -5
Beyond chicanery, another strong possibility is that the Sox identified some of these guys a while ago and wrapped them up at prices lower than they would've gotten otherwise ... McDaniel reported that they did that with Espinoza, and the turmoil in Venezuela would make guys even more likely to agree to $300K months ago rather than waiting for a bidding process later.
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Post by ramireja on Jul 4, 2015 13:12:27 GMT -5
Agreements for next year are already starting to hit the rumor mill for other teams, so its very possible that these guys get locked down before generating a little more hype. But probably a little bit of everything is going on...
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 4, 2015 13:20:30 GMT -5
Beyond chicanery, another strong possibility is that the Sox identified some of these guys a while ago and wrapped them up at prices lower than they would've gotten otherwise ... McDaniel reported that they did that with Espinoza, and the turmoil in Venezuela would make guys even more likely to agree to $300K months ago rather than waiting for a bidding process later. I think this is the biggest factor. I'll buy that the team might offer to give a sibling a shot, but I doubt they're spreading a large bonus across 4-5 family members to bypass the rules.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Jul 8, 2015 14:58:13 GMT -5
Jason Mastrodonato @jmastrodonato Red Sox acquired minor league RHP Ramses Rosario from Washington for an international bonus pool slot in the 2015-16 signing period
Rosario is in his 3rd season with the DSL Nationals. He hasn't had great results so far.
ADD: Chris Cotillo tweeted out that it was for the #66 slot, which is $327,700.
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