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5/28-5/31 Red Sox @ Rangers Series Thread
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Post by bookiemetts on May 31, 2015 19:20:27 GMT -5
Firing the manager, as much as it probably is deserved, is not going to solve the problems with the Sox. There just are too many of them, and many that most of us did not anticipate - nor did Sox management. The team is bad in virtually every aspect of the game. And it is a team effort. None of the veterans is playing to the level expected by past performance. Actually the best players are the youngsters - along with Pedroia. But even Pedroia is not the same player he was. So how does such a deeply flawed team get fixed? Right now I don't have a single idea that would help to put the team back in contention. Too many things need to be fixed at the same time. I have the same thoughts. I will keep tuning in to watch the younger guys hit and ERod pitching though. Pedroia's the closest to his career averages of anyone on the team, and he's still a tick below them, so it's pretty rough.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on May 31, 2015 19:27:07 GMT -5
Farrell is Cherington's guy How do you know this? Likely because it's documented. October 2012 JF hiring presser: Reporter: Ben, are you comfortable you've found "your guy"? Ben C: Yes. He's my guy. He's our guy too. And, he's a swell guy, as you all know.
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 19:36:06 GMT -5
Likely because it's documented. October 2012 JF hiring presser: Reporter: Ben, are you comfortable you've found "your guy"? Ben C: Yes. He's my guy. He's our guy too. And, he's a swell guy, as you all know. Yeah he's totally going to give a different answer to that if Lucchino/whoever was actually the one who pushed for Farrell.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 31, 2015 19:40:10 GMT -5
in FANTASY baseball, SOX will be playing MEANINGFUL BASEBALL come SEPTEMBER. So who are the position player suspects needed for longshot contribution if the batting woes continue. Thank goodness they managed to keep the valuable Bianchi. They need his bat.
WEEKS SHAW (had a good month) CRAIG BRADLEY
TEKOTTE WITTE. NO ASUAJE. NO
(again, this is fantasy world. Notice: there is no new player, eligible for Rule 5 in '15 who hit in May '15. Reminder, after Marrero, they drafted 8 pitches.) maybe they could use Margot for something this September.
I think it's time we start blaming Hazen & Lovullo ...
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Post by James Dunne on May 31, 2015 19:53:01 GMT -5
Firing the manager, as much as it probably is deserved, is not going to solve the problems with the Sox. There just are too many of them, and many that most of us did not anticipate - nor did Sox management. The team is bad in virtually every aspect of the game. And it is a team effort. None of the veterans is playing to the level expected by past performance. Actually the best players are the youngsters - along with Pedroia. But even Pedroia is not the same player he was. So how does such a deeply flawed team get fixed? Right now I don't have a single idea that would help to put the team back in contention. Too many things need to be fixed at the same time. Just because something isn't the entire solution doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Farrell obviously isn't the whole problem, but if he is part of the problem he should be evaluated based on that.
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Post by blizzards39 on May 31, 2015 19:53:04 GMT -5
I'm not ready to throw in the towel. This division is to wide open. There is also no reason to think that both the rotation and the lineup could/will improve. Just gotta start winning some games.
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Post by Don Caballero on May 31, 2015 20:02:07 GMT -5
Let's blame the manager. Let's blame the GM. Let's blame the hitting coach. I bet if we fire Cherington and Farrell, everything will magically turn around, even though there is no sense that the players have tuned Farrell out. Farrell won't be fired unless Cherington is fired, and Cherington won't be fired (if at all) until the offseason. The Red Sox have not fired a manager midseason since Jimy Williams fourteen years ago and have never fired a GM midseason. Farrell is Cherington's guy, and Cherington is the owners' guy. Not going to happen. Whine all you want, but it's not happening. Blame the players. They're underperforming. Thank you for this. The last few threads have been a repetitive slog on how Farrell needs to be fired and I understand, people are frustrated and he's made some questionable calls, like walking Fielder today. Let's not forget, however, that he would not have been in that position if the batters could have taken the chances they had, or if Pablo doesn't make a mistake. He's pressing for wins, but he's hardly the only one at fault here and firing him or Ben wouldn't fix anything right now. If anything, let's not give in and turn into the Boston media mentality ffs.
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Post by dcsoxfan on May 31, 2015 20:17:39 GMT -5
Let's blame the manager. Let's blame the GM. Let's blame the hitting coach. I bet if we fire Cherington and Farrell, everything will magically turn around, even though there is no sense that the players have tuned Farrell out. Farrell won't be fired unless Cherington is fired, and Cherington won't be fired (if at all) until the offseason. The Red Sox have not fired a manager midseason since Jimy Williams fourteen years ago and have never fired a GM midseason. Farrell is Cherington's guy, and Cherington is the owners' guy. Not going to happen. Whine all you want, but it's not happening. Blame the players. They're underperforming. I agree with this, but I would also add this team is in a "re-building" phase. Because the Red Sox are trying to compete financially with the Yankees and Dodgers despite being in a substantially smaller market, they mask this by bringing in free agents at high rates but with lower time commitments to be at least somewhat competitive while still protecting their core young players. I think it is the exact right strategy, even if the execution hasn't worked as well as we'd like in two of three cases.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on May 31, 2015 20:23:36 GMT -5
I'd be interested in knowing how much that decision to walk Fielder increased the chances of the Red Sox losing that game? Would any of the saber guys, care to show that percentage? Curious to see how much of a difference it was, if it can be calculated.
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Post by down225 on May 31, 2015 20:28:51 GMT -5
Let's blame the manager. Let's blame the GM. Let's blame the hitting coach. I bet if we fire Cherington and Farrell, everything will magically turn around, even though there is no sense that the players have tuned Farrell out. Farrell won't be fired unless Cherington is fired, and Cherington won't be fired (if at all) until the offseason. The Red Sox have not fired a manager midseason since Jimy Williams fourteen years ago and have never fired a GM midseason. Farrell is Cherington's guy, and Cherington is the owners' guy. Not going to happen. Whine all you want, but it's not happening. Blame the players. They're underperforming. Thank you for this. The last few threads have been a repetitive slog on how Farrell needs to be fired and I understand, people are frustrated and he's made some questionable calls, like walking Fielder today. Let's not forget, however, that he would not have been in that position if the batters could have taken the chances they had, or if Pablo doesn't make a mistake. He's pressing for wins, but he's hardly the only one at fault here and firing him or Ben wouldn't fix anything right now. If anything, let's not give in and turn into the Boston media mentality ffs. All players make mistakes, some more than others. It's a given and it's the nature of the game. But it's the manager's job to make decisions to try to compensate for those inevitable incidences. And that's where Farrell fails badly.
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Post by grandsalami on May 31, 2015 20:45:15 GMT -5
“@ryanhannable: The Red Sox have had 19 games scoring five or more runs this season - 7 of them occurred in the first 9 games of the the season.”
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 20:56:35 GMT -5
And now for something completely different ... has Joe Kelly done enough to survive the current round of starting pitching musical chairs? I'd say yes - 2 BB 3 K is not great by any means, but it's servicable, and 70% ground balls looked like a step in the right direction.
Here's the SIERAs of the Red Sox starters this season, Kelly's start today not included:
Rodriguez 3.11 Buchholz 3.21 Porcello 4.06 Kelly 4.11 Wright 4.57 Miley 4.83 Masterson 4.93
Knuckleball apologists such as myself will of course claim that SIERA is not geared to evaluate knuckleballers properly, and Wright is after all the only Sox pitcher with a sub-4.00 ERA (min 2 GS). Even so, it seems clear that both Wright and Kelly have outperformed Miley.
While I have nothing but disdain for the projection systems' treatment of Wright, it is perhaps worth pointing out that ZiPS likes Miley better than Kelly going forward (3.98 ERA vs. 4.35), while Steamer considers it a wash (4.31 vs. 4.33).
My best guess is that it's going to be Wright going down (or to the pen) if E-Rod doesn't implode, but it's a decision I'll disagree with. It's very close but my personal choice would be to option Miley. If E-Rod is merely average rather than dominant I might want to option him instead.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 31, 2015 21:02:28 GMT -5
Ben seems like an incredibly decent guy and we like his story. NH native, grows up rooting for the RS, joins the org and contributes to three world championships. The image of him cleaning out his office brings me no happiness (unlike Duquette, who I was glad to see canned).
But this is a bottom-line business and Ben's major moves have been flops that will hurt the organization for years. They have about $200 million tied up in Hanley, Panda and Craig and big holes to fill. They gave up two draft picks and a legit No. 2 starter to get those guys, plus Kelly.
JWH didn't get to be a billionaire by being sentimental. In fact, he made his fortune in a field that demands a total lack of sentimentality. If he thinks Ben has to go next off-season, he'll pull the trigger.
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 21:07:33 GMT -5
From ESPN:
So... the tying run getting on base "changes the complexion of the inning", but the winning run getting on base is not worth mentioning?
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 31, 2015 21:15:14 GMT -5
While we're at it, Kelly walking a speed guy to lead off the bottom of the first after the offense had given him a lead in the top half is also deserving of a smack in the head.
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Post by larrycook on May 31, 2015 21:16:32 GMT -5
From ESPN: So... the tying run getting on base "changes the complexion of the inning", but the winning run getting on base is not worth mentioning? Despite the horror of the bottom of the ninth, if we could have executed in the top of the ninth when we had a runner on third and one out, maybe this game ends differently. I think Farrell has to rework the batting lineup to separate the inning killers, because it does not appear some of these veterans are going to execute as they have in past seasons.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 31, 2015 21:24:19 GMT -5
I'd be interested in knowing how much that decision to walk Fielder increased the chances of the Red Sox losing that game? Would any of the saber guys, care to show that percentage? Curious to see how much of a difference it was, if it can be calculated. everything can be calculated. this is beisbol, comrade. A) bottom of 9th, down by 1, 2 outs, man on 3rd: 17% (Texas) B) bottom of 9th, down by 1, 2 outs, man on 1st & 3rd: 20.4% (Texas) www.tangotiger.net/welist.htmlC) bottom of 9th, down by 1, 2 outs, bases loaded: (IBB to Hamilton, too) 28% (Texas) of course, all of that is average 9th inning situation. Doesn't take into account the specialized knowledge that Fielder is a better hitter than Hamilton coming off the bench, cold.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 31, 2015 21:24:45 GMT -5
can anyone name the last pitching coach to excel at managing? Pitching coaches like to see hitters make outs, so subconsciously they sabotage their own players. Hows that for pulling a new one of nowhere? John Farrell. He excelled in 2013. Since then, not so much.
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Post by James Dunne on May 31, 2015 21:31:01 GMT -5
Is Bud Black a good manager? He seems sort of ok as far as these things go.
Bob Lemon and Roger Craig were both pretty successful. That's starting to go back a ways though.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 31, 2015 21:37:15 GMT -5
Is Bud Black a good manager? He seems sort of ok as far as these things go. Bob Lemon and Roger Craig were both pretty successful. That's starting to go back a ways though. George Bamberger managed the Brewers when they became a power in the late '70s. As I recall, he suffered a heart attack and had to quit. He didn't have any success after that with the Mets or in a second stint with the Brewers.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 21:52:26 GMT -5
No number of managers fired will "fix" an organization whose modus operandi is to compensate for deficiencies in scouting talent and evaluating character by throwing money at the situation. The sad thing is that this mentality has become an addiction for the Red Sox and has plagued the team for far longer than most are willing to admit. The addict has gotten to the point where his "fix" results in fewer and more far between "highs." The trainwreck that was Manny Ramirez was justified by 2004. The headache that was Daisuke Matsuzaka was justified by 2007. $250 million worth of players signed (and then traded away at a loss) was justified by 2013. Multiple last place finishes will presumably be justified by some future winning season. All or nothing. Win big or go bust trying. The Sox don't need a new manager. They need admittance to an organizational rehabilitation facility.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 31, 2015 22:22:47 GMT -5
No number of managers fired will "fix" an organization whose modus operandi is to compensate for deficiencies in scouting talent and evaluating character by throwing money at the situation. The sad thing is that this mentality has become an addiction for the Red Sox and has plagued the team for far longer than most are willing to admit. The addict has gotten to the point where his "fix" results in fewer and more far between "highs." The trainwreck that was Manny Ramirez was justified by 2004. The headache that was Daisuke Matsuzaka was justified by 2007. $250 million worth of players signed (and then traded away at a loss) was justified by 2013. Multiple last place finishes will presumably be justified by some future winning season. All or nothing. Win big or go bust trying. The Sox don't need a new manager. They need admittance to an organizational rehabilitation facility. I for one am sick of all these World Series titles.
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Post by James Dunne on May 31, 2015 22:30:58 GMT -5
The 2007 Red Sox had Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester, Delcarmen, and Ellsbury all playing key roles. Plus Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell, who they'd traded Hanley/Sanchez/+ for a couple years prior. The idea of that team being a developmental failure that was masked by big spending is laughable.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 31, 2015 22:31:48 GMT -5
I'm glad to see some echoes of what I've been saying recently. For all of the finger pointing at BC and even at Farrell, while I can't say that they're unjustified to a degree, the bottom line is that the players have underperformed, just about ever single one of them.
It's almost all-star game time. Is there any obvious candidate for the team? I guess the rule states that SOMEBODY from the Red Sox needs to be present to represent the team. Pedroia is the only one who is even remotely playing at a level that's close to what he's capable of doing. Tazawa has been pretty impressive. Holt has been handy, not all-star worthy necessarily, but respectable. Outside of that....
It's amazing how many facets of the game this team stinks at. If the pitching is there, the hitting isn't. If they actually score some runs, the pitching fails. If both are reasonably in check, the defense will kill them. If that doesn't get them, the bullpen will. Or maybe a stupid managerial decision. Or a boneheaded baserunning play. There are so many ways to lose a ballgame and the Red Sox are finding every which way to do it.
I'm almost convinced that the Sox are capable of generating 36 baserunners in a 9 inning game without scoring. How many baserunners did they have today? More than enough to score more than 3 runs? And then the defense lets them down again.
Wow, this team is so bad, it's getting close to the point where I'm going to start rooting for them to lose every day so they can work on getting a #1 draft pick for 2016. What else would there be to look forward to?
I mean, with everything that there is, is there really any solutions to the problem?
Managerial change? Unless it's Joe Morgan and he brings Morgan Magic with him, I don't see how that changes this deada$$ team. Fire the GM? He's made his mistakes, but I don't think anybody saw this team repeating 90 plus losses again. Trade or release everybody? What's the real solution.
I honestly have no idea. I don't think anything can fix this team. Maybe this is where the ridiculous idea of chemistry takes hold. This team has none of it. They just don't have it. I can't define it, but I know when I don't see it. I mean how else can you explain why a group of individuals who should be performing better as a team seems totally incapable of doing it? I think if you take most of the individual components of the Sox, they have useful players, but mix them all together and you got yourself an awful team.
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Post by jmei on May 31, 2015 22:52:37 GMT -5
No number of managers fired will "fix" an organization whose modus operandi is to compensate for deficiencies in scouting talent and evaluating character by throwing money at the situation. The sad thing is that this mentality has become an addiction for the Red Sox and has plagued the team for far longer than most are willing to admit. The addict has gotten to the point where his "fix" results in fewer and more far between "highs." The trainwreck that was Manny Ramirez was justified by 2004. The headache that was Daisuke Matsuzaka was justified by 2007. $250 million worth of players signed (and then traded away at a loss) was justified by 2013. Multiple last place finishes will presumably be justified by some future winning season. All or nothing. Win big or go bust trying. The Sox don't need a new manager. They need admittance to an organizational rehabilitation facility. I for one am sick of all these World Series titles. Yep, this terrible organization, one of the two or three in the conversation for most successful team of the millennium. But, you know, two last place finishes-- can't have that, can we? And don't get me started on the trainwreck of Manny Ramirez. You know, that guy who hit .312/.411/.588 and contributed 3.8 fWAR/600 PAs in a Red Sox uniform. All that does is, uh, feed the addiction? You know, the addiction for winning? Can't have that, can we.
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