SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Red Sox outfield discussion
|
Post by James Dunne on Nov 16, 2012 12:39:39 GMT -5
The Red Sox outfield is probably the most unsettled part of the team, both long and short term. Jacoby Ellsbury is a free agent after the 2013 season, and Jackie Bradley is knocking on the door. Cody Ross is a free agent and seems less than 50/50 to return at this point. Ryan Kalish still hasn't established himself. Jerry Sands is an option as well, and he may find himself in the first base mix. There are a plethora of fringe outfielders, all who might make a solid fourth guy but not someone you would consider a building block: Nava, Sweeney, Linares, Hassan, Maier, Hazelbaker etc. Brentz, the only other outfielder in the high minors who has the look of an MLB starter, is probably not going to be ready until September at the earliest.
One problem is that Bradley (the best prospect) and Ellsbury (the lone established player) play the same position. As Chris Mellen was saying in the BA Top 10 thread, Bradley has the arm for right field, but has the upside of a much better center fielder than Ellsbury. I'm not sure they could exist in the same outfield, but I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts.
What would you do short term? Let Kalish and Sands take their knocks and see if they develop? Bring in a short term signing to try to shore up the position to keep the team competitive? Deal Ellsbury?
How about long term - what would be your ideal outfield construction in 2015? Obviously there's a lot of speculation and even wishcasting involved in that, but have some fun with it.
|
|
|
Post by jdb on Nov 16, 2012 12:56:14 GMT -5
I think we need to either sign or trade for one established OF and keep Ells. I would be fine going into spring with Kalish, Nava, Sands and Brentz competing for the other corner spot. At the very least I can see a decent platoon there.
The established OF part is tricky. The FA class is deep at CF but I dont see any of them signing to play a corner spot just yet. That leaves names like Willingham and Gordon out there but at what point does the cost to acquire them become more expensive than giving up our 2nd rounder to sign Swisher? Swisher would give us flexibility going forward too bc he can play both LF/RF and 1B but it all comes down to dollars and years for him. Melky should be looked at as well and I wouldnt mind signing him.
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,827
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 16, 2012 13:15:30 GMT -5
The guy I like not named Josh is Shane Victorino. To me, he could exist in the same outfield as Ellsbury playing right-field. He has a decent arm, good range (something positive at Fenway), great chemistry, will take some pitches, is a good base runner, and is a winner.
Signing Victorino would also keep our options open if we decide to move Ellsbury. Shane can still play a decent center-field.
I also believe that Bradley will be in center for us, no later than, 2014. He is exactly the type of player we need batting at the top of the line-up and patrolling center.
Probably Josh Hamilton will NOT accept a 3-year offer for big money....say $25 to $27 million per year, but if he would, I'd like to go there.
I have ALWAYS liked Ryan Kalish and it has pained me to see him not be able to compete and play up to the level of play I know he can. I'm pro Jerry Sands also, and think that those two would, at least, make a great platoon.
Now if we trade Ellsbury.....well we need a couple of outfielders. I guess Bay could be serviceable, but not sure.
Melky Caberra may look real good on a 1-year.
To me, the key is Victorino. He gives us options. I'd give him a 2 year contract for slightly above average dollars per year.
|
|
|
Post by remember04 on Nov 16, 2012 13:51:48 GMT -5
The guy I like not named Josh is Shane Victorino. To me, he could exist in the same outfield as Ellsbury playing right-field. He has a decent arm, good range (something positive at Fenway), great chemistry, will take some pitches, is a good base runner, and is a winner. Signing Victorino would also keep our options open if we decide to move Ellsbury. Shane can still play a decent center-field. I also believe that Bradley will be in center for us, no later than, 2014. He is exactly the type of player we need batting at the top of the line-up and patrolling center. Probably Josh Hamilton will NOT accept a 3-year offer for big money....say $25 to $27 million per year, but if he would, I'd like to go there. I have ALWAYS liked Ryan Kalish and it has pained me to see him not be able to compete and play up to the level of play I know he can. I'm pro Jerry Sands also, and think that those two would, at least, make a great platoon. Now if we trade Ellsbury.....well we need a couple of outfielders. I guess Bay could be serviceable, but not sure. Melky Caberra may look real good on a 1-year. To me, the key is Victorino. He gives us options. I'd give him a 2 year contract for slightly above average dollars per year. I'll quote you because we are on the same wavelength here somewhat. I try to trade Ellsbury. Somehow someway I have a sinking feeling in the end I'm not going to be happy with whatever compensation we get for him but the draft pick is kind of negligible under the new CBA because we can't throw our weight around with the pick anymore. Melky on a one year deal looks pretty good to me and I think he would take that and it doesn't block JBJ. Melky also offers later in the season insurance in right if something goes wrong there. The Hamilton conundrum...I'd love to have a healthy mentally and physically Josh Hamilton on this team for 3-4 years. I'd also like to win the lottery but I don't play so... My second options would be to inquire about Logan Morrison and Alex Gordon. It all depends on the cost. I'd also talk to the Angels about taking Vernon Wells off their hands to help them with Greinke but I'd want C.J. Cron or Kole Calhoun coming back with him. Again this depends on total cost(including other prospects) but eating the money to acquire one of those two would be nothing for us and is the exact type of thing we should be doing with our payroll flexibility. Using it to acquire talent not otherwise available by eating a short term bad contract then when that contract expires using it to buy out the arb years of our proven youngsters to longer term team friendly contracts. The other outfield position I would give to Kalish/Sands/Nava and the rest to fight it out and see what they can do. If they all fail and JBJ is smoking the minors I call him up and decide between him and Melky for center and move the other to right. Next year is a step back to take two or more steps forward
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Nov 16, 2012 13:57:08 GMT -5
Melky Cabrera just signed with Toronto for two years and $16m. That team is going to be stacked next year.
|
|
|
Post by elguapo on Nov 16, 2012 14:04:34 GMT -5
Victorino wants more than 2 years. I like him for the same reasons SteveofB does and don't mind going three years for him because he has the defensive ability & flexibility to remain a valuable player even if his top line offensive numbers decline. He would be a good stabilizer while the Sox work new pieces into the outfield mix.
Sweeney is a non-tender candidate for me, or a reserve-only role.
Nava, Kalish & Sands each have an option remaining & I would be satisfied with some combination of those three filling the third OF slot.
|
|
|
Post by patrmac04 on Nov 16, 2012 14:05:00 GMT -5
Fork me... I was hoping for a Melky backup plan. Toronto isn't playin around this offseason.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by patrmac04 on Nov 16, 2012 14:12:44 GMT -5
So I would want Hamilton to play right, ells in center and nava/sands in left. I like that sands plays right/left and first.. perfect bench guy for this team next year. Hamilton could spell ells if needed in center so we don't really need another backup outfielder besides sands.
I am the opposite of most and never liked kalish and always felt he was overrated. I have however always liked nava because of his approach at the plate. Sands brings a little pop and has that split... got his 200 at bats out of the way and I see him surprising a lot of naysayers.
That said I see kalish as the 5th outfielder.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Nov 16, 2012 14:18:37 GMT -5
How do Victorino and Bradley co-exist though? Victorino doesn't really have the bat to be a plus in a corner, and like Ellsbury, Bradley projects as the better defender in the very near future (if not already).
Remember04, I like the Alex Gordon idea. I don't like the Vernon Wells idea, unless it was a) as part of a deal that gave the Angels salary relief and brought a contrubutor who is worth at least as much as Wells is paid, and b) Wells was cut immediately. He's not good enough to be on the roster - Daniel Nava is a SIGNIFICANTLY better player. I don't see the mechanics of such a move working in practice, so I think it's best if well all agree never, ever think about Vernon Wells again.
|
|
|
Post by honkbal on Nov 16, 2012 14:18:52 GMT -5
This offseason: I would seriously consider giving up a 2nd round pick for Nick Swisher, assuming he can be had for something close to/under 4/60. I think there's a lot to like there. And the d-baggery will have some entertainment value, at the very least.
A LoMo/Sands (semi-)platoon in LF (or 1B, for that matter) might work.
If "fair value" is out there for Ellsbury, you should make that trade. But it doesn't help his trade value much that there are four legitimate CF on the free agent market right now (not including Josh Hamilton). So, that said, they should seriously consider signing either B.J. Upton, Angel Pagan, or Shane Victorino anyway (preferably not B.J.). If they don't trade Ellsbury this year then one of them slides into a corner and becomes an option for CF in 2014 (or mid-2013, if Ells is traded then).
Don't trade for Justin Upton unless the price is the same as what you would get for Ellsbury.
Don't sign Cody Ross unless he'll take a 2 year deal.
The 2015 plan: Swisher in LF, JBJ in CF, Kalish/Brentz in RF
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 16, 2012 14:21:07 GMT -5
I'm cool with signing Hamilton under the right circumstances and I do think, failing that, the Sox need to sign a corner OF, but I do think the Sox also need to find out what they have in Ryan Kalish and in Jerry Sands.
This could be a viable platoon or perhaps one of them runs with the job, and perhaps on the off-chance, Kalish emerges as the rightfielder and Sands takes the LF job.
Kalish is a guy the Sox have had a high opinion of - higher than Reddick, for sure, but if he stays healthy, the Sox need to see if he can be that .280, 15 - 20 HRs, 25 steals, good defense RF they think he can be.
And it would be nice to see if Sands can hit outside of the thin air in AAA. He's earned the opportunity. Maybe he can run with it.
Or again, maybe they can make a viable platoon.
|
|
|
Post by soxcentral on Nov 16, 2012 14:37:35 GMT -5
I'm cool with signing Hamilton under the right circumstances and I do think, failing that, the Sox need to sign a corner OF, but I do think the Sox also need to find out what they have in Ryan Kalish and in Jerry Sands. This could be a viable platoon or perhaps one of them runs with the job, and perhaps on the off-chance, Kalish emerges as the rightfielder and Sands takes the LF job. Kalish is a guy the Sox have had a high opinion of - higher than Reddick, for sure, but if he stays healthy, the Sox need to see if he can be that .280, 15 - 20 HRs, 25 steals, good defense RF they think he can be. And it would be nice to see if Sands can hit outside of the thin air in AAA. He's earned the opportunity. Maybe he can run with it. Or again, maybe they can make a viable platoon. I am kind of in the camp that thinks like this. We have a year to find out what our younger crop can do, and need to see them over an extended period. Sands and Kalish, if our FO has any thoughts they could blossom into real player, should get that shot now. I'm also of the opinion that we can absorb salary dumps in conjunction with acquiring young talent we could not otherwise afford. Using our payroll flexibility to absorb 1-2 years of bad contracts while stockpiling more cost-controlled talent would be ideal. If we did go full youth movement with Iglesias, Lavarnway, Tazawa, Sands, Kalish, Bradley, De La Rosa, Webster, plus talent added by acquiring salary dumps, I doubt the fan base would be that upset as we'd have an immediate hope of developing a top team over the long haul. What I hope we don't do is spend $10 mil here, $10 mil there on a bunch of short term solutions that may help us get the wild card next year, but does not maximize this one-time chance to acquire premium talent through our financial advantage.
|
|
|
Post by elguapo on Nov 16, 2012 14:40:27 GMT -5
How do Victorino and Bradley co-exist though? Victorino doesn't really have the bat to be a plus in a corner Victorino's bat is roughly equivalent to Cody Ross (career 105 wRC+), except Victorino doesn't require a platoon. He's also a plus baserunner & fielder in the corners. Despite the judgment of the BBWAA, fielding & baserunning are very significant portions of the game. Obviously Victorino would play right field.
|
|
|
Post by sibbysisti on Nov 16, 2012 14:55:04 GMT -5
This offseason: I would seriously consider giving up a 2nd round pick for Nick Swisher, assuming he can be had for something close to/under 4/60. I think there's a lot to like there. And the d-baggery will have some entertainment value, at the very least. A LoMo/Sands (semi-)platoon in LF (or 1B, for that matter) might work. If "fair value" is out there for Ellsbury, you should make that trade. But it doesn't help his trade value much that there are four legitimate CF on the free agent market right now (not including Josh Hamilton). So, that said, they should seriously consider signing either B.J. Upton, Angel Pagan, or Shane Victorino anyway (preferably not B.J.). If they don't trade Ellsbury this year then one of them slides into a corner and becomes an option for CF in 2014 (or mid-2013, if Ells is traded then). Don't trade for Justin Upton unless the price is the same as what you would get for Ellsbury. Don't sign Cody Ross unless he'll take a 2 year deal. The 2015 plan: Swisher in LF, JBJ in CF, Kalish/Brentz in RF Agree with you on Cody. However, there's no way you could get Justin Upton for the price it would take for Ellsbury. In the first place, Ellsbury is a FA at years end. Upton is onlt 25 and still in his arbitration years. Look at Upton's production numbers for the last three years compared to Ells one productive year in the last three. Please don't argue about the desert air, etc. BTW, who is LoMo?
|
|
|
Post by remember04 on Nov 16, 2012 15:20:30 GMT -5
This offseason: I would seriously consider giving up a 2nd round pick for Nick Swisher, assuming he can be had for something close to/under 4/60. I think there's a lot to like there. And the d-baggery will have some entertainment value, at the very least. A LoMo/Sands (semi-)platoon in LF (or 1B, for that matter) might work. If "fair value" is out there for Ellsbury, you should make that trade. But it doesn't help his trade value much that there are four legitimate CF on the free agent market right now (not including Josh Hamilton). So, that said, they should seriously consider signing either B.J. Upton, Angel Pagan, or Shane Victorino anyway (preferably not B.J.). If they don't trade Ellsbury this year then one of them slides into a corner and becomes an option for CF in 2014 (or mid-2013, if Ells is traded then). Don't trade for Justin Upton unless the price is the same as what you would get for Ellsbury. Don't sign Cody Ross unless he'll take a 2 year deal. The 2015 plan: Swisher in LF, JBJ in CF, Kalish/Brentz in RF Agree with you on Cody. However, there's no way you could get Justin Upton for the price it would take for Ellsbury. In the first place, Ellsbury is a FA at years end. Upton is onlt 25 and still in his arbitration years. Look at Upton's production numbers for the last three years compared to Ells one productive year in the last three. Please don't argue about the desert air, etc. BTW, who is LoMo? Logan Morrison of the Miami Marlins
|
|
|
Post by sibbysisti on Nov 16, 2012 15:24:14 GMT -5
Oh, it wasn't clear from the post. Didn't know he had that nickname.
|
|
|
Post by mainesox on Nov 16, 2012 15:28:58 GMT -5
I think Ellsbury and Bradley certainly can coexist, and while it wouldn't be ideal, it might just be the best choice given the other options in the next couple years.
The free agent options are too expensive and risky (Hamilton), essentially the same scenario as Ells/JBJ (Victorino), or not very good (pretty much everyone else), and the options aren't much better next year either.
There are trade possibilities, but they would all likely take a significant package of prospects (possibly including JBJ, which would likely lead to extending Ellsbury anyway); and the future of their potential corner outfield prospects is pretty cloudy, so internal options are iffy.
It also never hurts to have a center fielder playing RF in Fenway.
|
|
|
Post by remember04 on Nov 16, 2012 17:02:00 GMT -5
Remember04, I like the Alex Gordon idea. I don't like the Mr. X idea, unless it was a) as part of a deal that gave the Angels salary relief and brought a contrubutor who is worth at least as much as Mr. X is paid, and b) Mr. X was cut immediately. He's not good enough to be on the roster - Daniel Nava is a SIGNIFICANTLY better player. I don't see the mechanics of such a move working in practice, so I think it's best if well all agree never, ever think about Mr. X again. Per your request I won't mention his name but its not my money and its 42 million over two years. Next year I see as a full rebuilding year and the year after as a step forward year where we'll probably contend for the playoffs but that's about it. In order to get my hands on a young blocked firstbaseman and/or an outfielder like Calhoun I go for it. Like I said not my money and two semi-wasted years anyway for two potential pieces of the future? I go for it. Cron Cron was high on Draft boards in 2011 as one of the better advanced college hitters in the class. The son of Chris Cron, now a manager in the Tigers' Minor League system, his pitch recognition and plate discipline allow him to hit for average, and his strength has brought power in his first full season, albeit in the hitter-friendly California League. A torn labrum will limit Cron, a former catcher, to first base, and he had surgery to repair it near the end of the 2012 season. An injured knee required surgery last offseason, but he was healthy for nearly all of 2012. He has the kind of hitting skills that should enable him to move quickly through the Angels' farm system. Calhoun The senior sign out of Arizona State went straight to the Class A Advanced California League for his first full season and promptly led the system in homers, finished second in RBIs and ended up third in the Cal League in OPS. He then followed that up by double-jumping to Triple-A, more than holding his own and making his Major League debut in 2012. He has a very good approach at the plate, draws walks and doesn’t strike out much, especially considering his extra-base ability. He could hit his way to the big leagues playing an outfield corner and/or first base.
|
|
|
Post by marrcus on Nov 16, 2012 17:22:37 GMT -5
"for a Melky backup plan. " ------------------------------- I don't think RS would have done it. I would have but only if Ross isn't an option anymore. Melky is a ok player but likely only very good with Ped's.
Logan Morrison of the Miami Marlins " ----------------------------- I've thought about him too but you look at his projections and he doesn't hold up. Plus he's not RH.
|
|
|
Post by honkbal on Nov 16, 2012 17:44:54 GMT -5
Logan Morrison of the Miami Marlins ----------------------------- I've thought about him too but you look at his projections and he doesn't hold up. Plus he's not RH. But Jerry Sands is, thus, a platoon. I agree that it wouldn't be great production there, but there is some upside. As far as the Ellsbury/Upton trade value comparison; I do understand that Upton is likely to have significantly higher trade value than Ellsbury right now. What I was arguing is that I wouldn't want to pay that price for him.
|
|
|
Post by buffs4444 on Nov 16, 2012 21:55:11 GMT -5
So I would want Hamilton to play right, ells in center and nava/sands in left. Hamilton may be better suited for left to save some of the wear on his body. He has the ability to play center/right obviously, but the more important thing is to keep his bat in the lineup for ~160 games/yr. And maybe look into hiring Narron away from Milwaukee as the second hitting coach....
|
|
|
Post by patrmac04 on Nov 16, 2012 22:09:43 GMT -5
So I would want Hamilton to play right, ells in center and nava/sands in left. Hamilton may be better suited for left to save some of the wear on his body. He has the ability to play center/right obviously, but the more important thing is to keep his bat in the lineup for ~160 games/yr. And maybe look into hiring Narron away from Milwaukee as the second hitting coach.... The reason for me saying hamilton in right is that nava can only play left and I really want his bat in the lineup. He reminds me of a poor mans youk with less power. His ability to grind out at bats is something we moved away from in recent years that I hope this team gets back to. Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Nov 16, 2012 22:31:37 GMT -5
Logan Morrison is atrocious in the outfield. Absolutely a liability. I want no part of him.
|
|
|
Post by GyIantosca on Nov 16, 2012 22:52:54 GMT -5
I am just worried we are gonna get locked in some dumb deals. I really have a great feeling for the outfielders on this team. I think Jacobs is being slept on also. I really wish it was 2013 offseason because I feel the FO would have a better feel for what we have. We are deep with pitching,SS, and OF.
|
|
|
Post by dmaineah on Nov 17, 2012 7:19:31 GMT -5
Extend Ellsbury, sign Hamilton, make do with Kalish, Sweeney, Sands until Brentz arrives. Or sign Ross for 2yrs & platoon him with Kalish or Sweeney until Brentz arrives.
|
|
|