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6/24 ML Gameday Thread: Anderson Espinoza's GCL debut
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Post by klostrophobic on Jun 24, 2015 22:55:28 GMT -5
@timbritton: Brian Johnson collides with a runner as he attempts to cover 1B, and he's coming out of the game. Leaving under his own power. That is almost unbelievable, but it fits really well within the story of the 2015 Red Sox.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 24, 2015 23:28:50 GMT -5
@timbritton: Brian Johnson collides with a runner as he attempts to cover 1B, and he's coming out of the game. Leaving under his own power. That is almost unbelievable, but it fits really well within the story of the 2015 Red Sox. He later tweeted that Johnson only would've pitched to one more batter before hitting his pitch count anyway, so that's why he came out.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 24, 2015 23:29:19 GMT -5
It is one of the great cons of our era that the billionaire owners of professional sports teams have made players and agents look like the bad guys for demanding a market salary. Are you some kind of communist? No, he was playing in Omaha.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 25, 2015 3:45:58 GMT -5
Why IMO Boston dearly needs to approach Betts and his current agent.. Relatively Baseball before one of Boras's snakes that follow budding stars around the game convinces Betts to switch and there is -0- hope of any LT, cost controlled deal.. Much like the team will be looking at shortly with Bogaerts. It is one of the great cons of our era that the billionaire owners of professional sports teams have made players and agents look like the bad guys for demanding a market salary. Remember that when Bogaerts, under the guidance of Boras leaves after the 2020 season, or id demanding "X" amount of dollars in arbitration in years 3,4.. etc.. Prior to leaving under the guidance of Boras. Some snakes you know protect their "flock" past losing their 1st shedding of skin.. Including several species of rattlesnakes.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 25, 2015 4:00:38 GMT -5
This same board that is happy when this team has cost controlled contracts in advance.. See past deals with Dustin Pedroia, Clay Bucholz, Jon Lester.. Under slot deals with any draft picks... Yet shows this all for the working stiff when it chooses only on selective occasions?
Some people here are really confused and it isn't myself and a couple other I could name off.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 25, 2015 7:10:38 GMT -5
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Post by jmei on Jun 25, 2015 7:52:06 GMT -5
This same board that is happy when this team has cost controlled contracts in advance.. See past deals with Dustin Pedroia, Clay Bucholz, Jon Lester.. Under slot deals with any draft picks... Yet shows this all for the working stiff when it chooses only on selective occasions? Some people here are really confused and it isn't myself and a couple other I could name off. Yes, it would help the team I root for if their players sign below-market deals. No, that does not mean that Scott Boras should be demonized for being the best agent in the business. It's not a zero-sum game, especially in baseball, when the only real salary constraint is an owner's willingness to open his pocketbook. By the way, this whole meme that Boras corrupts players into being greedy or whatever is totally false. He is not some Sith overlord who gets them to betray their values. The players choose to hire him and instruct him to get them the best offers available. If they only want him to negotiate/sign with their hometown team, he'll do so (see, e.g., Jason Varitek or Jered Weaver).
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Post by vermontsox1 on Jun 25, 2015 8:09:31 GMT -5
To add a little bit further, Ben Badler described him as an athletic-type with advanced pitchability and breaking stuff who throws mostly mid-80s at the moment. He can throw strikes, but the fastball is used more as a set-up pitch for his "swing-and-miss" curveball. www.baseballamerica.com/international/2014-international-reviews-boston-red-sox/Also, their other Nicaraguan, Jhosmar Cortez (who got 125k) has yet to pitch.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 25, 2015 8:23:23 GMT -5
This same board that is happy when this team has cost controlled contracts in advance.. See past deals with Dustin Pedroia, Clay Bucholz, Jon Lester.. Under slot deals with any draft picks... Yet shows this all for the working stiff when it chooses only on selective occasions? Some people here are really confused and it isn't myself and a couple other I could name off. Yes, it would help the team I root for if their players sign below-market deals. No, that does not mean that Scott Boras should be demonized for being the best agent in the business. It's not a zero-sum game, especially in baseball, when the only real salary constraint is an owner's willingness to open his pocketbook. By the way, this whole meme that Boras corrupts players into being greedy or whatever is totally false. He is not some Sith overlord who gets them to betray their values. The players choose to hire him and instruct him to get them the best offers available. If they only want him to negotiate/sign with their hometown team, he'll do so (see, e.g., Jason Varitek or Jered Weaver). Agree to disagree with you again.. This topic got way off near the top and don't want to get into another major disagreement with you, who with sports, for the most parts I *do* agree with you most of the time JMEI.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 25, 2015 12:33:55 GMT -5
This same board that is happy when this team has cost controlled contracts in advance.. See past deals with Dustin Pedroia, Clay Bucholz, Jon Lester.. Under slot deals with any draft picks... Yet shows this all for the working stiff when it chooses only on selective occasions? Some people here are really confused and it isn't myself and a couple other I could name off. Yes, it would help the team I root for if their players sign below-market deals. No, that does not mean that Scott Boras should be demonized for being the best agent in the business. It's not a zero-sum game, especially in baseball, when the only real salary constraint is an owner's willingness to open his pocketbook. By the way, this whole meme that Boras corrupts players into being greedy or whatever is totally false. He is not some Sith overlord who gets them to betray their values. The players choose to hire him and instruct him to get them the best offers available. If they only want him to negotiate/sign with their hometown team, he'll do so (see, e.g., Jason Varitek or Jered Weaver). Problem is that Boras tries to set the market higher and higher, and that pretty much always requires one team out of 30 to be stupid about it. It also usually requires the player leaving their team which sucks. I'm all for paying players what they're worth, but there are a whole lot of Boras clients that end up getting paid far more than they're worth by that one stupid team.
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Post by jmei on Jun 25, 2015 12:39:31 GMT -5
Yes, it would help the team I root for if their players sign below-market deals. No, that does not mean that Scott Boras should be demonized for being the best agent in the business. It's not a zero-sum game, especially in baseball, when the only real salary constraint is an owner's willingness to open his pocketbook. By the way, this whole meme that Boras corrupts players into being greedy or whatever is totally false. He is not some Sith overlord who gets them to betray their values. The players choose to hire him and instruct him to get them the best offers available. If they only want him to negotiate/sign with their hometown team, he'll do so (see, e.g., Jason Varitek or Jered Weaver). Problem is that Boras tries to set the market higher and higher, and that pretty much always requires one team out of 30 to be stupid about it. It also usually requires the player leaving their team which sucks. I'm all for paying players what they're worth, but there are a whole lot of Boras clients that end up getting paid far more than they're worth by that one stupid team. Players are worth what an employer is willing to pay them. This is the fundamental tenant of free-market capitalism. I'm sympathetic to the idea that players leaving their teams is a negative externality because fans can't really get attached to players like they used to be able to. But the alternative would be something like the old reserve system in which players lack real bargaining power and expenditures on player salaries are artificially suppressed both in the aggregate and in any specific case.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 25, 2015 12:50:16 GMT -5
I am quite loyal to my law firm. I enjoy it here. However, if some other firm with super deep pockets wants to come along and pay me way more than I'm worth to do the exact same thing in some other city, I'm bailing. I don't need Scott Boras to tell me to do that. I dare anyone here to say they'd do any different and think there was anything wrong with it, or even think there was anything wrong with it if someone else did it.
But because it's sports and we're invested in rooting for the teams, fans think it's horrible for the game. But it really isn't. Blame the one stupid owner, not Boras or the player.
And to echo the prior statement, players hire Boras because they want Boras to do what he does. He takes the brunt of the assault from fans as part of his services, but again, he works for the player, not vice versa.
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Post by tonyc on Jun 25, 2015 12:55:56 GMT -5
Some other symptoms of this "capitalism gone wild" ballplayers market include Miley's yelling at his manager knowing that his contract is bigger and longer, and other player selfishness like bunting becoming a lost art, and hustle not a given at the big league level. There are issues of egotism and greater societal effects when a class of elites is held above the ethical and sometimes legal standards of the rest. As Jmei pointed out the other extreme was daunting for the ballplayers.. too bad there's no middle ground.
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Post by tonyc on Jun 25, 2015 13:04:11 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree here Chris...I've taken less money over the years to work at a hospital that had good "people atmosphere" and moved to a different city making less money in a less secure position (Boulder Co) because I valued the overall environment more. Money is important to alll of us in western culture, but it's when it's emphasized to the near exclusion of the other aspects of life and people that the sick parts of our culture are fostered.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 25, 2015 13:11:34 GMT -5
Problem is that Boras tries to set the market higher and higher, and that pretty much always requires one team out of 30 to be stupid about it. It also usually requires the player leaving their team which sucks. I'm all for paying players what they're worth, but there are a whole lot of Boras clients that end up getting paid far more than they're worth by that one stupid team. Players are worth what an employer is willing to pay them. This is the fundamental tenant of free-market capitalism. I'm sympathetic to the idea that players leaving their teams is a negative externality because fans can't really get attached to players like they used to be able to. But the alternative would be something like the old reserve system in which players lack real bargaining power and expenditures on player salaries are artificially suppressed both in the aggregate and in any specific case. Baseball is not free-market capitalism. The CBA is pretty stupid right now and it leads to stupid contracts for older players who don't deserve them over younger better players who aren't declining. I completely understand what you're saying, but I don't like it at all as a baseball fan. I don't want to watch old players who can't play make 50 times as much as a 5 WAR pre-arb guy. I have no interest in it.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 25, 2015 13:13:53 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree here Chris...I've taken less money over the years to work at a hospital that had good "people atmosphere" and moved to a different city making less money in a less secure position (Boulder Co) because I valued the overall environment more. Money is important to alll of us in western culture, but it's when it's emphasized to the near exclusion of the other aspects of life and people that the sick parts of our culture are fostered. Yep, same here. I've taken a $40k paycut because I don't like traveling all the time and prefer to be with my family. I also couldn't possibly be paid enough to be most kinds of lawyers.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 25, 2015 13:21:09 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree here Chris...I've taken less money over the years to work at a hospital that had good "people atmosphere" and moved to a different city making less money in a less secure position (Boulder Co) because I valued the overall environment more. Money is important to alll of us in western culture, but it's when it's emphasized to the near exclusion of the other aspects of life and people that the sick parts of our culture are fostered. Yep, same here. I've taken a $40k paycut because I don't like traveling all the time and prefer to be with my family. I also couldn't possibly be paid enough to be most kinds of lawyers. All fair points from you both (particularly jimed's last one ), but I don't think you're disagreeing with me. You took all the factors into consideration and selected the situation that you thought provided you with the most overall value. Using tonyc's example, you moved to a different city because you liked that opportunity better than your prior opportunity. Sports Fan Sully is wondering where your loyalty was to your prior employer and how you could turn your back on them. That really was the point I was trying to make, albeit poorly. When you're a baseball player with an earning window of like 10 years and you're going to be traveling a ton and have no idea who precisely you're going to be working with and for over the life of your contract (team could change around you, new coaching staff or management at pretty much any time, and you could be traded if you don't have a NTC), you can understand how the money involved would matter more - it's the only thing you can count on over the life of the contract, really. To go back to tonyc's example, if the company in Boulder could just trade you to some other company at any time, would the calculus have changed?
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 25, 2015 13:25:44 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree here Chris...I've taken less money over the years to work at a hospital that had good "people atmosphere" and moved to a different city making less money in a less secure position (Boulder Co) because I valued the overall environment more. Money is important to alll of us in western culture, but it's when it's emphasized to the near exclusion of the other aspects of life and people that the sick parts of our culture are fostered. Yep, same here. I've taken a $40k paycut because I don't like traveling all the time and prefer to be with my family. I also couldn't possibly be paid enough to be most kinds of lawyers. C'mon guys. That's your choice. And Varitek and others have hired Boras to get the best deal possible from one team or a small handful of desired teams. Other guys want the most money. You are going to begrudge them that? Take the amount of money involved. You may have chosen to make less for a certain lifestyle. I likely would as well. But I am not going begrudge my friends - or anyone else - from relocating to make a few more bucks or a boatload more. But that'sthe players choice, not Boras'. Agree with Chris on this one. As fans, we get attached to players and teams and hate to see our guys go. I do to. But the Boras' hate is misplaced.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 25, 2015 13:28:36 GMT -5
Yep, same here. I've taken a $40k paycut because I don't like traveling all the time and prefer to be with my family. I also couldn't possibly be paid enough to be most kinds of lawyers. When you're a baseball player with an earning window of like 10 years and you're going to be traveling a ton and have no idea who precisely you're going to be working with and for over the life of your contract (team could change around you, new coaching staff or management at pretty much any time, and you could be traded if you don't have a NTC), you can understand how the money involved would matter more - it's the only thing you can count on over the life of the contract, really. To go back to tonyc's example, if the company in Boulder could just trade you to some other company at any time, would the calculus have changed?Outstanding point! All of it, but especially the bold part
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 25, 2015 13:29:44 GMT -5
Problem is that Boras tries to set the market higher and higher, and that pretty much always requires one team out of 30 to be stupid about it. Yes, because it's stupid to put your own interests in front of those of the entire cartel.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 25, 2015 13:33:32 GMT -5
I'm not crazy about people who only care about money. Not in real life, not in sports. What's the lifestyle difference between $135 million and $155 million after already having $80 million in the bank?
Of course, I'm also not crazy about the owners or cable tv companies either.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 25, 2015 13:35:32 GMT -5
Problem is that Boras tries to set the market higher and higher, and that pretty much always requires one team out of 30 to be stupid about it. Yes, because it's stupid to put your own interests in front of those of the entire cartel. No, it's just one of the stupid parts about baseball. Just wait until we start talking about Xander's free agency and the Yankees want to pay him a billion dollars. Hello comp pick.
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Post by tonyc on Jun 25, 2015 15:10:50 GMT -5
Right Jimed- and you can probably recall when Tiant defected to the Yankees, which sickened Bowie Kuhn. It's not the way I like to think, but another factor in the players choice to exclude other factors than money, (which some have later regretted) is their type AAA breeding: many ballplayers have been described, sort of Darwinian to get to where they are, as uber competitive in everything, not just baseball, they take card games, pingpong whatever very seriously, and even though we can't differentiate between a few million when over a hundred are thrown their way- they are competing with each other big time. They are akin to that character in Star Trek 2 played by Ricardo Mantalban.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 25, 2015 21:51:44 GMT -5
I'm not crazy about people who only care about money. Not in real life, not in sports. What's the lifestyle difference between $135 million and $155 million after already having $80 million in the bank?Of course, I'm also not crazy about the owners or cable tv companies either. You'd know if you had $80 million.
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Post by Gwell55 on Jun 25, 2015 22:13:14 GMT -5
I'm not crazy about people who only care about money. Not in real life, not in sports. What's the lifestyle difference between $135 million and $155 million after already having $80 million in the bank?Of course, I'm also not crazy about the owners or cable tv companies either. About an 80ft extension on your power yacht.
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