SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Ben Cherington to step down; Dave Dombrowski joins FO
|
Post by soxfan06 on Aug 18, 2015 22:13:13 GMT -5
Yes, taking the Detroit Tigers from a team that was 684-936 in the 10 years before he arrived (68.4-93.6 average) to a team that was averaged 86.2 wins a year in his last 10 years there is such a terrible job. Agreed. He did a wonderful job achieving mediocrity. But that is the new goal, right? Mediocrity? lol The only teams with more wins than Detroit from 2004-2014 in alphabetical order Atlanta, Boston, LAA, LAD, New York Yankees, Philadelphia and St. Louis. Oh and shh, don't tell anyone, but the last 5 seasons before this year the only teams with more wins than Detroit: NO ONE. Detroit had the most wins from 2010-2014.
|
|
|
Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 18, 2015 22:13:43 GMT -5
So he had four years to build an organization that could win 86 games per year? With financial might in a mostly weak, and poor, division? Like I said earlier: 14 years: 91+ wins THREE TIMES and zero titles. Where do I sign up for that? Who the **** cares about 90+ wins? Really? Who gives a damn? Such an arbitrary number to judge success on. But a typical sabr strategy. Arbibrary number to make my argument look better. Hilarious that you changed it from 90+ wins to 91+ wins to skew the numbers in your favor. It's not that hilarious: it's 4 times in 14 years for 90+ wins. But it's still Zero Titles.
|
|
|
Post by ethanbein on Aug 18, 2015 22:14:49 GMT -5
I didn't see what happened with Wren in the last 6 pages. Is anything official with him? Just the Bob Nightengale tweet that Wren is the leading contender.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,824
|
Post by nomar on Aug 18, 2015 22:15:01 GMT -5
I didn't see what happened with Wren in the last 6 pages. Is anything official with him? No but it does look pretty likely and predictable. Maybe the immediate public anti-Wren commotion will scare ownership away from letting Wren in, but I doubt it.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 22:16:13 GMT -5
I don't care about 0 titles, but 90 wins seems like a reasonable goal for successful seasons, even though I didn't see how close they were to say 86 wins, which wins a wild card spot half the time.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 18, 2015 22:16:23 GMT -5
It's funny reading the reaction of the saber crowd to the impending doom. Because we're so irrational even though that's what we're trained not to be, huh? It's more along the lines of, if it's broke don't fix it philosophy. Your as much of a fan as I am, I know that, but this move had to be made. If there is less reliance on analytics....if you have the courage of your convictions, you should be able to let things play out and say I told you so if that fails.
|
|
|
Post by notguilty on Aug 18, 2015 22:17:09 GMT -5
Agreed. He did a wonderful job achieving mediocrity. But that is the new goal, right? Mediocrity? lol The only teams with more wins than Detroit from 2004-2014 in alphabetical order Atlanta, Boston, LAA, LAD, New York Yankees, Philadelphia and St. Louis. Oh and shh, don't tell anyone, but the last 5 seasons before this year the only teams with more wins than Detroit: NO ONE. Detroit had the most wins from 2010-2014. Cue Robot - "More days in first place, more days in first place.." Sorry, couldn't help it.
|
|
|
Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 18, 2015 22:17:32 GMT -5
Linking an article is not making an argument. You lose. Or refute my position. Seriously. ... You should maybe spend less time repeating the fact about the 90+ wins and more time reading. This was insulting, by the way. But I'm a good sport. Plus, I read 180 pages of literary fiction today (and wrote 2000 words of same) — what'd you do to advance your literacy?
|
|
|
Post by ibsmith85 on Aug 18, 2015 22:17:57 GMT -5
Slowly back pedaling away from the ledge after taking some time to digest a bit. The "win before croaking" owner of the Tigers facts, lessened my fears a little that DD will gut the farm, being one of the major reasons. But like most, I sincerely hope that either DiPoto slides into the GM role, or someone along those lines. For the love of all things baseball, no Frank Wren. I think a lot of the initial distain for the move as others have mentioned is more sadness that BC will not remain in the organization, along with a lot of his staff. Dombroski/DiPoto 2016!!! NO WREN!!!
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 22:18:43 GMT -5
Because we're so irrational even though that's what we're trained not to be, huh? It's more along the lines of, if it's broke don't fix it philosophy. Your as much of a fan as I am, I know that, but this move had to be made. If there is less reliance on analytics....if you have the courage of your convictions, you should be able to let things play out and say I told you so if that fails. It's more along the lines of, it can actually be worse. We're in better shape as the Red Sox than the Phillies, ya know? IMO, the move had to be made because they stunk at analytics.
|
|
|
Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 18, 2015 22:18:49 GMT -5
Mediocrity? lol The only teams with more wins than Detroit from 2004-2014 in alphabetical order Atlanta, Boston, LAA, LAD, New York Yankees, Philadelphia and St. Louis. Oh and shh, don't tell anyone, but the last 5 seasons before this year the only teams with more wins than Detroit: NO ONE. Detroit had the most wins from 2010-2014. Cue Robot - "More days in first place, more days in first place.." Sorry, couldn't help it. That was awesome. Thanks for the levity.
|
|
|
Post by soxfan06 on Aug 18, 2015 22:19:00 GMT -5
Who the **** cares about 90+ wins? Really? Who gives a damn? Such an arbitrary number to judge success on. But a typical sabr strategy. Arbibrary number to make my argument look better. Hilarious that you changed it from 90+ wins to 91+ wins to skew the numbers in your favor. It's not that hilarious: it's 4 times in 14 years for 90+ wins. But it's still Zero Titles. But it is still zero titles, that might have been more titles if he had been given the $30 extra million in constant funding that he will receive in Boston.
|
|
|
Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 18, 2015 22:19:53 GMT -5
Good night, ladies and gents. Thanks for the fun comments and dialogue.
|
|
|
Post by bosox81 on Aug 18, 2015 22:20:06 GMT -5
I'm sad that Ben is gone. Some day we'll have Espinoza on the mound, with Moncada, Devers, Bogaerts, Swihart, Benintendi, Betts, Margot behind him (well not all of them, I know). And we'll think back and thank Ben Cherington and be sad he left.
|
|
|
Post by sammo420 on Aug 18, 2015 22:20:16 GMT -5
At the time he traded Randy Johnson, Randy was just a big malfunctioning unit. He was a tall, gangly goober with no control (minor league BB/9 numbers: 7.9, 7.1, 8.2, 5.7, 4.5) and there was no way to project that he would become one of the top 2-3 LH SP of all time. Small-market Montreal was trying to cash in on a rare chance to win, so DD traded for a solid veteran SP. It's easy to criticize the move 300 wins and one HOF plaque later but a lot of GMs would have done the same thing. This. Thank you and I'll try to catch up with the rest of this thread ASAP.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 22:20:11 GMT -5
FWIW, I think DiPoto would be the perfect GM under Dombrowski. It seems like their strengths would compliment each other really well. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like that is too likely at this point, but it would make me feel pretty good about this move if that ends up being the case. I'm praying they embrace advanced stats or we're doomed. Not likely. Dombrowski and Wren are both scout oriented guys. Wren, in particular, was groomed under John Schuerholz. For his part, Schuerholz looked own on sabermetrics. If you want a peak inside the philosophy that Wren learned, read Schuerholz' book "Built To Win."
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 18, 2015 22:20:49 GMT -5
Agreed. He did a wonderful job achieving mediocrity. But that is the new goal, right? Mediocrity? lol The only teams with more wins than Detroit from 2004-2014 in alphabetical order Atlanta, Boston, LAA, LAD, New York Yankees, Philadelphia and St. Louis. Oh and shh, don't tell anyone, but the last 5 seasons before this year the only teams with more wins than Detroit: NO ONE. Detroit had the most wins from 2010-2014. 9th out of 30 teams while playing in the division which, for most of that time, was the weakest in baseball. That just oozes mediocrity for most of us.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Aug 18, 2015 22:21:52 GMT -5
All this speculation about what this portends is so much Kremlinology. Dombrowski traded away the farm in Detroit, but it was because ownership made him! Cherington signed Sandoval and Ramirez, but it was because ownership made him! There's so little transparency to these processes that it's essentially impossible to figure out what overriding philosophies are operative.
It's probably fair to say that Cherington contributed to building a great farm system but wasn't very good at evaluating major league talent (though he was great at it in 2013...). And it's probably fair to say that Dombrowski is good at evaluating major league talent, but not so hot at drafting or developing Latin American talent (which is what even that hagiographic Grantland article says). The crux of the matter is whether the organization can figure out how to add the Dombrowskian strengths without sacrificing the Cheringtonian strengths. There's just no way to know yet whether they can.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 22:21:37 GMT -5
It's not that hilarious: it's 4 times in 14 years for 90+ wins. But it's still Zero Titles. But it is still zero titles, that might have been more titles if he had been given the $30 extra million in constant funding that he will receive in Boston. Zero titles doesn't mean crap. The Red Sox, one of the worst teams in the majors in 2015, scored 37 runs in 2 games. That can happen to a team that makes the wild card.
|
|
|
Post by soxfan06 on Aug 18, 2015 22:22:35 GMT -5
Mediocrity? lol The only teams with more wins than Detroit from 2004-2014 in alphabetical order Atlanta, Boston, LAA, LAD, New York Yankees, Philadelphia and St. Louis. Oh and shh, don't tell anyone, but the last 5 seasons before this year the only teams with more wins than Detroit: NO ONE. Detroit had the most wins from 2010-2014. 9th out of 30 teams while playing in the division which, for most of that time, was the weakest in baseball. That just oozes mediocrity for most of us. If making the playoffs year in and year out is mediocrity, well then so be it. I'm on board with mediocrity.
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 18, 2015 22:22:41 GMT -5
Well, that's a cool quote and all, but read it again: Edgar doesn't say he didn't have a wipeout slider, just that he didn't have command of it. I know what the quote says. I posted it, after all. Not being able to throw a pitch for strikes can kinda limit the pitch's effectiveness, no? The bigger point is that it's a bit ridiculous to fault DD for not foreseeing the 303 wins, 5 CYs and 4,900 K's. Look
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 22:23:54 GMT -5
I'm praying they embrace advanced stats or we're doomed. Not likely. Dombrowski and Wren are both scout oriented guys. Wren, in particular, was groomed under John Schuerholz. For his part, Schuerholz looked own on sabermetrics. If you want a peak inside the philosophy that Wren learned, read Schuerholz' book "Built To Win." I really doubt that anyone is so rigid they never adjust and actually stay in the game.
|
|
|
Post by soxfan06 on Aug 18, 2015 22:24:10 GMT -5
But it is still zero titles, that might have been more titles if he had been given the $30 extra million in constant funding that he will receive in Boston. Zero titles doesn't mean crap. The Red Sox, one of the worst teams in the majors in 2015, scored 37 runs in 2 games. That can happen to a team that makes the wild card. Exactly. I'm not the one touting the 0 titles in Detroit garbage. All I want out of a the people running my team, is guys who will put out a team year in and year out that can compete. And hopefully one of those years everything goes right and they win it all.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 22:26:44 GMT -5
Zero titles doesn't mean crap. The Red Sox, one of the worst teams in the majors in 2015, scored 37 runs in 2 games. That can happen to a team that makes the wild card. Exactly. I'm not the one touting the 0 titles in Detroit garbage. All I want out of a the people running my team, is guys who will put out a team year in and year out that can compete. And hopefully one of those years everything goes right and they win it all. 86-90 wins consistently and then anything can happen after that. As Red Sox fans, we're used to finishing 2nd to the Yankees and missing the playoffs with 95 wins. Well some of us are.
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 18, 2015 22:27:34 GMT -5
9th out of 30 teams while playing in the division which, for most of that time, was the weakest in baseball. That just oozes mediocrity for most of us. If making the playoffs year in and year out is mediocrity, well then so be it. I'm on board with mediocrity. I assume you have a plan (and a time machine) for moving the Red Sox into the AL Central (circa pre-2014)? Or do you think those 86 wins in the AL Central equals a whole lot of playoff appearances in the AL East?
|
|
|