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Margot vs. Benintendi debate
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 21, 2015 13:21:19 GMT -5
The question is who is the better prospect isn't it? I never said that Benintendi will definitely be able to hit a curveball etc...some of you guys are just extrapolating my comment of "feeling better about Margot after he proves he can hit off speed stuff" to mean "Oh yeah, Benintendi has already proven he can hit off speed stuff" or some ridiculous extrapolation such as that. You are grasping at straws. Not proving my position as wrong.
And now 30 scouts effing rave about Benintendi as the "best hitter in the draft" and 'closest to the majors" and he's in A BALL for God's sake and you still are tap dancing all over the place. A Baseball America poll of all 30 teams scouts and FO personnel. Extremely credible data.
With all due respect, at least consider for a second that my position wasn't crazy or a "preposterously bad argument". Look at our own soxprospects ranking votes ( not the official decision makers here but the overall forum votes ) and it appears to me that over half of the people polled put Benintendi higher than Margot. Our position is only enhanced by this Baseball America poll which is about as definitive a scout projection as you can get. Scouts are extremely confident in Benintendi. I don't think they would put that same tag on Margot. No matter what, it isn't a preposterous position to take.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Oct 21, 2015 13:53:22 GMT -5
... With all due respect, at least consider for a second that my position wasn't crazy or a "preposterously bad argument". ... I never said your "position" was crazy, or that your "position" was a "preposterously bad argument". A position is not an argument. When I used the phrase "preposterously bad argument" I also noted that some people agree with your position that Benintendi is better than Margot. It's not your position, it's your "preposterously bad argument(s)" that are "preposterously bad argument(s)". You can be right and still make a "preposterously bad argument" (like, "the earth revolves around the sun, because my shadow is longer in the afternoon"). People keep trying to explain this to you, but you're not listening. With all due respect, at least consider for a second that the criticism of your argumentation may be valid.
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Post by dominicansoxfan on Oct 21, 2015 14:09:26 GMT -5
Margot is definitely the better prospect, but things can often do change!
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 21, 2015 14:36:51 GMT -5
I'm sure I will be tarred & feathered for saying this, but I think it would be nice to have another position player that is non Hispanic/Caucasian on the 25 man....we are looking at what, 1 or 2 starters in that category next year (DP & possibly Swihart).....It was the reverse of this 30 years ago & there were rumblings....now it has gone the other way....I am probably the biggest fan of our current core(Betts, XB ect) just think it would be ok to have some benitendi's & Travis' succeed as well.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 21, 2015 15:02:27 GMT -5
And now 30 scouts effing rave about Benintendi as the "best hitter in the draft" and 'closest to the majors" and he's in A BALL for God's sake and you still are tap dancing all over the place. A Baseball America poll of all 30 teams scouts and FO personnel. Extremely credible data. With all due respect, at least consider for a second that my position wasn't crazy or a "preposterously bad argument". Look at our own soxprospects ranking votes ( not the official decision makers here but the overall forum votes ) and it appears to me that over half of the people polled put Benintendi higher than Margot. Our position is only enhanced by this Baseball America poll which is about as definitive a scout projection as you can get. Scouts are extremely confident in Benintendi. I don't think they would put that same tag on Margot. No matter what, it isn't a preposterous position to take. It's not nearly as preposterous as taking a BA poll THAT out of context. If the Red Sox had an 18 year old Babe Ruth in AA, would that BA poll say that Benintendi is better than Babe Ruth? No, because they weren't compared. Neither a fictitious 18 year old Babe Ruth nor Margot were 2015 college draftees.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 21, 2015 17:22:31 GMT -5
OK, I'll just put a Baseball America poll of scouts and FO personnel from all 30 teams as completely insignificant compared to your opinion Jimed. After all. It's out of context.
Of course it is significant data and relevant data. The players are in different leagues but scouts called him "closest to the majors" of all 2015 draftees. That is very significant one would think and indicates they are confident he will rise through the minors very well, which is the same confidence I talked about in his game going forward. To call him the "best hitter" and "2nd best power hitter" from that draft are also huge accolades. This is not one scout. This is a poll of over 30 scouts. From Baseball America. This is incredibly relevant data.
We will see who has this projection analyzed correctly. This isn't about investing in a player and sticking with him no matter what new data becomes availble to us. If we can't even consider this data as relevant to the discussion and the players involved, what the hell is relevant?
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Post by myleskennefick on Oct 21, 2015 17:43:02 GMT -5
OK, I'll just put a Baseball America poll of scouts and FO personnel from all 30 teams as completely insignificant compared to your opinion Jimed. After all. It's out of context. Of course it is significant data and relevant data. The players are in different leagues but scouts called him "closest to the majors" of all 2015 draftees. That is very significant one would think and indicates they are confident he will rise through the minors very well, which is the same confidence I talked about in his game going forward. To call him the "best hitter" and "2nd best power hitter" from that draft are also huge accolades. This is not one scout. This is a poll of over 30 scouts. From Baseball America. This is incredibly relevant data. We will see who has this projection analyzed correctly. This isn't about investing in a player and sticking with him no matter what new data becomes availble to us. If we can't even consider this data as relevant to the discussion and the players involved, what the hell is relevant? The scouts and front office people weren't asked to compare anyone to Margot, so it's not evidence that Benintendi is a better prospect than Margot. It's means he's a very good prospect, and perhaps the best of his draft class, but it has nothing to do with Margot. It's not that hard to understand.
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Post by iakovos11 on Oct 21, 2015 18:06:07 GMT -5
I'm sure I will be tarred & feathered for saying this, but I think it would be nice to have another position player that is non Hispanic/Caucasian on the 25 man....we are looking at what, 1 or 2 starters in that category next year (DP & possibly Swihart).....It was the reverse of this 30 years ago & there were rumblings....now it has gone the other way....I am probably the biggest fan of our current core(Betts, XB ect) just think it would be ok to have some benitendi's & Travis' succeed as well. I just don't have the words. In this day and age, did you really just post this?
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Post by bentossaurus on Oct 21, 2015 18:43:50 GMT -5
OK, I'll just put a Baseball America poll of scouts and FO personnel from all 30 teams as completely insignificant compared to your opinion Jimed. After all. It's out of context. Of course it is significant data and relevant data. The players are in different leagues but scouts called him "closest to the majors" of all 2015 2005 draftees. That is very significant one would think and indicates they are confident he will rise through the minors very well, which is the same confidence I talked about in his game going forward. (...) This is a poll of over 30 scouts. From Baseball America. This is incredibly relevant data. You sure we're not talking about Craig Hansen?
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Post by telson13 on Oct 21, 2015 18:50:10 GMT -5
The question is who is the better prospect isn't it? I never said that Benintendi will definitely be able to hit a curveball etc...some of you guys are just extrapolating my comment of "feeling better about Margot after he proves he can hit off speed stuff" to mean "Oh yeah, Benintendi has already proven he can hit off speed stuff" or some ridiculous extrapolation such as that. You are grasping at straws. Not proving my position as wrong. And now 30 scouts effing rave about Benintendi as the "best hitter in the draft" and 'closest to the majors" and he's in A BALL for God's sake and you still are tap dancing all over the place. A Baseball America poll of all 30 teams scouts and FO personnel. Extremely credible data. With all due respect, at least consider for a second that my position wasn't crazy or a "preposterously bad argument". Look at our own soxprospects ranking votes ( not the official decision makers here but the overall forum votes ) and it appears to me that over half of the people polled put Benintendi higher than Margot. Our position is only enhanced by this Baseball America poll which is about as definitive a scout projection as you can get. Scouts are extremely confident in Benintendi. I don't think they would put that same tag on Margot. No matter what, it isn't a preposterous position to take. You restate the question itself: "Who's the better prospect?" That question takes into account ceiling, floor, and risk (a large part of which is current level, and tools like speed and defense, which are often more evident early in a player's career and/or are more predictable developmentally). I think maybe you're confusing the real question with what seems to be your answer to a different question: "who has the higher ceiling?" That is debatable (I side with Benintendi, slightly), but it's not the same question. At least, your argument (while still having some internal inconsistencies) is better suited to the latter question.
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 21, 2015 18:58:21 GMT -5
I'm sure I will be tarred & feathered for saying this, but I think it would be nice to have another position player that is non Hispanic/Caucasian on the 25 man....we are looking at what, 1 or 2 starters in that category next year (DP & possibly Swihart).....It was the reverse of this 30 years ago & there were rumblings....now it has gone the other way....I am probably the biggest fan of our current core(Betts, XB ect) just think it would be ok to have some benitendi's & Travis' succeed as well. You won't be tarred and feathered. Some will pity you , some will pray for you. You give yourself way too much credit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 19:04:14 GMT -5
I'm sure I will be tarred & feathered for saying this, but I think it would be nice to have another position player that is non Hispanic/Caucasian on the 25 man....we are looking at what, 1 or 2 starters in that category next year (DP & possibly Swihart).....It was the reverse of this 30 years ago & there were rumblings....now it has gone the other way....I am probably the biggest fan of our current core(Betts, XB ect) just think it would be ok to have some benitendi's & Travis' succeed as well. Not sure why the player's race would matter to you. But, if it's so bothersome to you, you might want to just abandon the sport now - Since the demographics of the sport (as well as the nation as a whole) are skewing more and more Hispanic.
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Post by azblue on Oct 21, 2015 19:13:33 GMT -5
I'm not a racist, but....
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Post by dominicansoxfan on Oct 21, 2015 19:22:02 GMT -5
I have friends that are Hispanic and Black....
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Post by jbuttah on Oct 21, 2015 19:59:29 GMT -5
I have friends that are Hispanic and Black.... What's your problem with Asians?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 21, 2015 20:23:47 GMT -5
I'm sure I will be tarred & feathered for saying this, but I think it would be nice to have another position player that is non Hispanic/Caucasian on the 25 man....we are looking at what, 1 or 2 starters in that category next year (DP & possibly Swihart).....It was the reverse of this 30 years ago & there were rumblings....now it has gone the other way....I am probably the biggest fan of our current core(Betts, XB ect) just think it would be ok to have some benitendi's & Travis' succeed as well. I think the idea is to have a pure meritocracy. If a team can't see their way clear to doing that, they won't stay competitive for very long, regardless of race, religion, or creed. I've got a feeling you're going to get your wish, but not because of a specific choice the team makes. Those are good players, and they'll make it on that merit I talked about.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 21, 2015 21:34:06 GMT -5
I have friends that are Hispanic and Black.... What a renaissance man...
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Post by dominicansoxfan on Oct 21, 2015 21:52:53 GMT -5
You guys have to read back a couple of posts to get the joke.
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Post by dominicansoxfan on Oct 21, 2015 21:56:14 GMT -5
15 posts to be exact
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 21, 2015 22:15:49 GMT -5
lavarnwayguy, please just answer me this: You understand that nobody here thinks Benintendi sucks, and that we pretty much all think he's really good and certainly a Top 100 prospect, right?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 22, 2015 0:25:43 GMT -5
I'm sure I will be tarred & feathered for saying this, but I think it would be nice to have another position player that is non Hispanic/Caucasian on the 25 man....we are looking at what, 1 or 2 starters in that category next year (DP & possibly Swihart).....It was the reverse of this 30 years ago & there were rumblings....now it has gone the other way....I am probably the biggest fan of our current core(Betts, XB ect) just think it would be ok to have some benitendi's & Travis' succeed as well. Somewhere Archie Bunker is nodding his head in agreement. Yeesh. Honestly, what was the point of posting this nonsense?
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Post by Smittyw on Oct 22, 2015 6:40:15 GMT -5
I just knew the problem with this team was not enough white guys.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 22, 2015 7:49:21 GMT -5
Yeah that's the problem with baseball
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Post by texs31 on Oct 22, 2015 8:38:11 GMT -5
While this thread could've evolved into a healthy debate about what's more important when evaluating prospects, it has certainly gone off the rails. A couple of thoughts:
1. The thread DOES highlight the problem with rankings. They seem to always take prospect evaluation into prospect comparison which leads to finding negatives in one prospect to validate placing the other "higher" in a list. It's an argument that doesn't need to have happened.
2. The idea that the result will validate the argument is not accurate. I'm pretty sure that when folks are comparing the two, they are not considering things like opportunity, adjustments, and any other number of things. However, the results WILL include those things. Pedroia was passed over by many scouts and made it to the Sox in the 2nd round. Obviously, he has outplayed MANY of the players that went before him. Does that mean the scouts were wrong (okay, maybe the SD guy who touted Matt Bush was but . . . ). Not necessarily. It COULD mean that he has outperformed his scouting report (something that happens all the time).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, rankings often tell more about the ranker (for example, do they prefer to see tools or performance) than they do about the prospects
3. We won't tar and feather anyone. Mostly bc, like other forms of mob punishment/vengeance (probably shouldn't come out and say the one that many would think of in this context) it's associated with, at best, outdated ignorance and, more likely, blind hatred.
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Post by mandelbro on Oct 22, 2015 9:29:52 GMT -5
This is a potentially interesting discussion, even if it hasn't played out as such.
Personally, I get the sense that the Red Sox looked at Andrew Benintendi, and figured they should go to the short-athletic-dude-who-keeps-producing well again. He reminds me of those guys in that if you pitch him inside he will turn on it and make you pay. His swing is gorgeous.
On the other hand, I think people are reading too much into their statistical track records. Margot has a compact swing, with uncommon pitch recognition and bat-to-ball skills, and he puts the ball in play. Players who have great Z-contact talent tend to progress level to level with more success. Is Margot going to be some kind of phenomenon, or so-called "star" in the bigs? I doubt it. But its very easy to see him hitting 7th and flying around in CF.
While we're talking about center fielders: can Moncada play in CF, and if so should he be in this discussion at all? I know we don't have a "need" at CF but it really seems like his skillset (blazing speed, strong arm, makes spectacular plays laying out, questionable footwork) would be well suited for the outfield.
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