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9/21-9/24 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by Guidas on Sept 22, 2015 21:07:43 GMT -5
Agreed. Still, this start pretty much encapsulates my impression of Owens based on the 8 or so times I've seen him live - some tantalizing stuff that he can throw for strikes especially, the change-up, for several batters or occassionally nearly an entire game; bouts of poor control that can go on for several batters or nearly his entire portion of the game; and a midling fastball that won't fool most major league hitters unless everything else is working in unison, is mixed well and he controls the pitches in the lower third of the zone. We saw all of that on display tonight - the good, the bland and the frustrating.
He's also a guy who I think would benefit greatly from pitching "backwards" more often than not, leading with his curve or change as his first pitch. Again, only effective if he can do so with strikes. Then second time through lead on some batters with the FB. He really needs to be absolutely on and working all facets of deception to be more than a 4/5 starter. He may get there, but the latter is more likely.
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Post by station13 on Sept 22, 2015 22:58:34 GMT -5
I hope Shaw continues to play well, wants Ramirez nowhere near 1B.
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Post by blizzards39 on Sept 22, 2015 23:09:40 GMT -5
I hope Shaw continues to play well, wants Ramirez nowhere near 1B. Imagine the position the sox would be in had they signed Scherzer instead of Hanley and Panda. 1- would be in a wild card position 2- have an ace for at least the next few years 3- have a solid youthful lineup 4- not be forced to part with any prospects but have the luxury of trading for a bonified superstar or a young stud pitcher 5- not have the delema of Pablo/Hanley
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 23, 2015 1:51:12 GMT -5
I hope Shaw continues to play well, wants Ramirez nowhere near 1B. Imagine the position the sox would be in had they signed Scherzer instead of Hanley and Panda. 1- would be in a wild card position 2- have an ace for at least the next few years 3- have a solid youthful lineup 4- not be forced to part with any prospects but have the luxury of trading for a bonified superstar or a young stud pitcher 5- not have the delema of Pablo/Hanley This
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Sept 23, 2015 6:14:28 GMT -5
I hope Shaw continues to play well, wants Ramirez nowhere near 1B. Imagine the position the sox would be in had they signed Scherzer instead of Hanley and Panda. 1- would be in a wild card position 2- have an ace for at least the next few years 3- have a solid youthful lineup 4- not be forced to part with any prospects but have the luxury of trading for a bonified superstar or a young stud pitcher 5- not have the delema of Pablo/Hanley And Holt exposed at 3b, and someone else getting Holt's UTIL PAs? And JBJ under pressure in Boston instead of rebuilding at AAA? or is it Cecchini or Shaw hitting .150 at 3b or LF? Seriously, who's in LF and 3b on opening day 2015?
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Post by justinp123 on Sept 23, 2015 6:43:18 GMT -5
Oviously it's easy to look at it now and say this, but I'm sure they could have found two players to play those positions much cheaper and put up the same production. Whether it was from outside or internal. Of course the red sox were expecting much more from those two (ramirez and sandoval) but they didn't get that.
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Post by jmei on Sept 23, 2015 6:52:02 GMT -5
Imagine the position the sox would be in had they signed Scherzer instead of Hanley and Panda. 1- would be in a wild card position 2- have an ace for at least the next few years 3- have a solid youthful lineup 4- not be forced to part with any prospects but have the luxury of trading for a bonified superstar or a young stud pitcher 5- not have the delema of Pablo/Hanley And Holt exposed at 3b, and someone else getting Holt's UTIL PAs? And JBJ under pressure in Boston instead of rebuilding at AAA? or is it Cecchini or Shaw hitting .150 at 3b or LF? Seriously, who's in LF and 3b on opening day 2015? It's mostly fantasy, but not entirely. There were those who were happy with Holt at 3B and a Nava/Craig platoon last offseason. I'm still not sure that's a playoff team, but it would have had a brighter future. (Combine it with the counterfactual that they never traded Cespedes for Porcello, though...)
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Post by justinp123 on Sept 23, 2015 7:03:43 GMT -5
I'm honestly ok with Porcello, just not for that contract. But to be honest, i really wish they traded originally for a prospect instead of Cespedes in the first place. Which in the end means we probably wouldn't have Porcello now, which i'm also ok with.
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Post by jmei on Sept 23, 2015 7:48:03 GMT -5
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Sept 23, 2015 8:06:17 GMT -5
Not a Porcello fan, but the logic the Sox used for that contract is sound. Overpaying for his prime years is much better than paying him $15 million+ when he's dead weight.
Plus, there's almost no chance he's this bad again next season.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 23, 2015 8:38:15 GMT -5
Whoa, posting this from James Dunne's tweet on the side of the page here: That's a lot of baseball in between 1909 and today. Yeah, I posted that in Bogaerts thread today. Basically either Bogaerts (or Betts, depending on what stat you like) is the best second-best 22-year-old a team has ever had. Except ... it's a LIE!! Speier points out Bench/Carbo for the Reds in 1970 ... Joking, though. The point stands: it's an amazing thing to have 2 guys so young having such great seasons, something extremely rare in baseball history. Carbo had a funny career, though. Some great seasons and a great career OBP but was a fourth outfielder for most of his career. Before my time, but anyone remember why? Was it just because his BA wasn't all that great and people didn't quite get OBP back then? But, man, was that ever a great Sox OF of Rice/Lynn/Evans with Carbo as the fourth OFer here and there in the late 70s. Gotta be one of the best ever for those 3-4 seasons. All three starters were HoF quality at that stretch, and Carbo was close to 400 OBP.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Sept 23, 2015 8:48:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I posted that in Bogaerts thread today. Basically either Bogaerts (or Betts, depending on what stat you like) is the best second-best 22-year-old a team has ever had. Except ... it's a LIE!! Speier points out Bench/Carbo for the Reds in 1970 ... Joking, though. The point stands: it's an amazing thing to have 2 guys so young having such great seasons, something extremely rare in baseball history. Carbo had a funny career, though. Some great seasons and a great career OBP but was a fourth outfielder for most of his career. Before my time, but anyone remember why? Was it just because his BA wasn't all that great and people didn't quite get OBP back then? But, man, was that ever a great Sox OF of Rice/Lynn/Evans with Carbo as the fourth OFer here and there in the late 70s. Gotta be one of the best ever for those 3-4 seasons. All three starters were HoF quality at that stretch, and Carbo was close to 400 OBP. Thought it was about his addiction issues. Hasn't he admitted he was actually high when he hit his most famous home run.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 23, 2015 9:13:09 GMT -5
Except ... it's a LIE!! Speier points out Bench/Carbo for the Reds in 1970 ... Joking, though. The point stands: it's an amazing thing to have 2 guys so young having such great seasons, something extremely rare in baseball history. Carbo had a funny career, though. Some great seasons and a great career OBP but was a fourth outfielder for most of his career. Before my time, but anyone remember why? Was it just because his BA wasn't all that great and people didn't quite get OBP back then? But, man, was that ever a great Sox OF of Rice/Lynn/Evans with Carbo as the fourth OFer here and there in the late 70s. Gotta be one of the best ever for those 3-4 seasons. All three starters were HoF quality at that stretch, and Carbo was close to 400 OBP. Thought it was about his addiction issues. Hasn't he admitted he was actually high when he hit his most famous home run. Honestly didn't even know about that ... or, actually, had forgotten about it. I vaguely remember now that he had some addiction problems. Which if that's what happened is too bad, clearly the guy had enormous talent.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 23, 2015 10:02:18 GMT -5
Thought it was about his addiction issues. Hasn't he admitted he was actually high when he hit his most famous home run. Honestly didn't even know about that ... or, actually, had forgotten about it. I vaguely remember now that he had some addiction problems. Which if that's what happened is too bad, clearly the guy had enormous talent. Just did some reading on Bernie Carbo, who came to the Sox at the insistence of his old coach, Don Zimmer. Amazing how naive we were in the 60's about drugs. Bernie says he played stoned his whole career, got sober later in life and now works with kids to help them avoid addiction. I watched him play and never knew, but Dewey said such behavior wasn't uncommon. Guess it wan't just the "hippies", college kids, musicians and Viet Nam vets that set the stage for today's medical marijuana initiatives.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 23, 2015 10:17:23 GMT -5
He played high on cannabis? Big deal. You'd be surprised how many people today are stoned at work, at any type of job whatsoever. It's not like being drunk and it's not always the reefer madness stereotype.
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Post by charliezink16 on Sept 23, 2015 10:58:20 GMT -5
He played high on cannabis? Big deal. You'd be surprised how many people today are stoned at work, at any type of job whatsoever. It's not like being drunk and it's not always the reefer madness stereotype. Agreed. Can't say that u know this to be true, but a friend of mine sat next to Brett Kiesel on a plane ride. Apparently when he asked Kiesel about this, he said that a good portion of NFL players are high during games. Certainly helps them physically, and relaxes them.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Sept 23, 2015 11:54:52 GMT -5
Except ... it's a LIE!! Speier points out Bench/Carbo for the Reds in 1970 ... Joking, though. The point stands: it's an amazing thing to have 2 guys so young having such great seasons, something extremely rare in baseball history. Carbo had a funny career, though. Some great seasons and a great career OBP but was a fourth outfielder for most of his career. Before my time, but anyone remember why? Was it just because his BA wasn't all that great and people didn't quite get OBP back then? But, man, was that ever a great Sox OF of Rice/Lynn/Evans with Carbo as the fourth OFer here and there in the late 70s. Gotta be one of the best ever for those 3-4 seasons. All three starters were HoF quality at that stretch, and Carbo was close to 400 OBP. Thought it was about his addiction issues. Hasn't he admitted he was actually high when he hit his most famous home run. also hit .200 .317 .293 .610 for his career vs LHP, including .167 .318 .333 .652 in that stellar rookie season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 23, 2015 12:40:09 GMT -5
Except ... it's a LIE!! Speier points out Bench/Carbo for the Reds in 1970 ... Joking, though. The point stands: it's an amazing thing to have 2 guys so young having such great seasons, something extremely rare in baseball history. Carbo had a funny career, though. Some great seasons and a great career OBP but was a fourth outfielder for most of his career. Before my time, but anyone remember why? Was it just because his BA wasn't all that great and people didn't quite get OBP back then? But, man, was that ever a great Sox OF of Rice/Lynn/Evans with Carbo as the fourth OFer here and there in the late 70s. Gotta be one of the best ever for those 3-4 seasons. All three starters were HoF quality at that stretch, and Carbo was close to 400 OBP. Thought it was about his addiction issues. Hasn't he admitted he was actually high when he hit his most famous home run. Carbo was out there. Hard to imagine Sparky Anderson going for that. And if Zimmer knew then.....I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted Carbo with the Sox. I remember reading some things about him in Peter Gammons' book. One of them was that he actually hit a grand slam HR off a lefty and when the reporters asked him about that, he accused them of pulling his leg telling them that he wouldn't be hitting against a southpaw. The other thing I remember reading was that the Brewers insisted that the Sox take Carbo back in the deal that sent George Scott (and Carbo) back to the Red Sox for a young Cecil Cooper (Awful deal for the Sox). And of course the Sox released Carbo in June of 1978 prompting Bill Lee's walkout and they had implications on the season. Lee got himself buried so deep in Zimmer's doghouse that Zimmer passed up Lee when the Boston Massacre happened opting to go with a jittery (according to PawSox manager Joe Morgan) Bobby Sprowl when all that stood between in between the Yankees catching the Sox was a scared rookie. And of course Carbo's LH bat wasn't available to for PH duty in the playoff game when the Yankees replaced Guidry with Goose Gossage. The Sox had to counter with a washed up RH hitting Bob Bailey in his last major league AB and he struck out looking at all 3 pitches.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 23, 2015 12:49:33 GMT -5
Yeah, I posted that in Bogaerts thread today. Basically either Bogaerts (or Betts, depending on what stat you like) is the best second-best 22-year-old a team has ever had. Except ... it's a LIE!! Speier points out Bench/Carbo for the Reds in 1970 ... My error. I will say 40 Hail Johnnys to repent. I'm not caught up on my baseball history, did those Reds teams end up having any success in subsequent years?
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Post by ramireja on Sept 23, 2015 12:49:41 GMT -5
Hey, remember when Owens had ace upside because of his deception and strikeout rate against double-A hitters? How all those scouts who called him a future #4 were just slaves to the radar gun? Fun times. Don't get me wrong, I like the kid just fine. He'll be a valuable pitcher and that changeup makes him fun to watch. But he's a mid-to-back of the rotation guy. Owens started the game with 4 perfect innings (if I remember correctly), he pitched into the 8th inning for the second start in a row, and he elicited 21 swings and misses. If he gets taken out after 7 innings, his line looks pretty damn good. I don't this start did anything to dampen his ace upside (or at least #2 upside which I think is a more accurate upside prediction of even Owen's biggest supporters).
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Post by mredsox89 on Sept 23, 2015 12:53:23 GMT -5
If they had a semi-competent bullpen, they wouldn't send a starter out to face a lineup for a fourth time. Numbers pretty much across the board go to crap the 3rd and 4th time through the order
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 23, 2015 13:09:19 GMT -5
If they had a semi-competent bullpen, they wouldn't send a starter out to face a lineup for a fourth time. Numbers pretty much across the board go to crap the 3rd and 4th time through the order I really think that was more to challenge Owens than anything to do with their chances to win.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 23, 2015 15:10:16 GMT -5
Except ... it's a LIE!! Speier points out Bench/Carbo for the Reds in 1970 ... My error. I will say 40 Hail Johnnys to repent. I'm not caught up on my baseball history, did those Reds teams end up having any success in subsequent years? It's an odd coincidence that both times this happened, one of the teammates is an inner circle Hall of Famer, the type of guy in the conversation for best ever at his position, and the other guy is a more-or-less useful player but nothing that special. I mean, Donie Bush was better than Bernie Carbo, but he was just a good player. edit to add: Oh, and if you want to do some penitence, there's some kind of bishop or something touring DC today, fouling up all the traffic. Maybe he can help you.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 23, 2015 15:31:17 GMT -5
Won't help. See that "e" at the end of my name? These Dunnes were Anglicized at some point.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Sept 23, 2015 15:48:51 GMT -5
BETTS PEDROIA XANDER ORTIZ SHAW CASTILLO SWIHART MARRERO 3B BRADLEY
PORCELLO RHP
facing the lefty, Pablo and Holt sit.
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