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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:43:01 GMT -5
"acting bigger than the game"-- why is this (a) a bad thing at all and (b) bad enough to justify physical assault? If the only reason is "that's the way we've always done it," that's not good enough. I'm not saying you have to like Harper's personality, but you shouldn't go around confronting everyone you dislike. Just passive-aggressively talk **** behind his back like everyone else does. PS: you should, on the other hand, absolutely respect Harper. In his age-22 season, he's having the best offensive season since peak Barry Bonds. He might be arrogant, but there should be no question about his effort levels or work ethic. Why is it a bad thing? Simply put, its about respect. Respect the game, respect your teammates, and respect your peers. I don't see in that his game or his interviews, and apparently neither does the league. But take Mike Trout for example....roughly the same age and the same talent level, and I don't think this situation would elicit the same response from other players if it had been Trout who was confronted. So its not all about success, its about Harper being a giant $%#@. If you act like one, someone might put you in your place after a while. Also, I do respect Harper's talents. How can you not? He's going to be a star in this league for a long time. But just like Barry Bonds, that doesn't necessarily make you a desirable teammate, and thats something that needs to be considered when building a team. Compare Harper to Mookie or Xander while we're at it. Talent has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Dicks are not liked.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 15:44:06 GMT -5
"acting bigger than the game"-- why is this (a) a bad thing at all and (b) bad enough to justify physical assault? If the only reason is "that's the way we've always done it," that's not good enough. I'm not saying you have to like Harper's personality, but you shouldn't go around confronting everyone you dislike. Just passive-aggressively talk **** behind his back like everyone else does. PS: you should, on the other hand, absolutely respect Harper. In his age-22 season, he's having the best offensive season since peak Barry Bonds. He might be arrogant, but there should be no question about his effort levels or work ethic. Harper probably shouldn't have started it in the newspapers with the Machado thing then. Being a dick is what gets you into fights, whether you want to justify it or not. Eventually someone snaps. I didn't go defending the a-holes I'd go out with in college when they'd get drunk and get beat up and didn't come up with anti-violence rhetoric like my mom would when I was 12 and got into a fight because I was getting bullied. That's life. Don't be a dick is the lesson. Harper was calling Papelbon out on an intentional HBP, which is something every morally sound person should do.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:44:45 GMT -5
Yeah, its really not. Many of Harper's supporters want to believe the hate stems from his success, but it seems obvious to me its at least coupled with his overall attitude and persona ( in other words, being a giant dick, which Brady is not). Is that worthy of being "choked out" or more accurately, shoved? Probably not, but it is worthy of someone at least calling him out.....and once you bark back (which Harper did), you run the risk of things turning physical. Your laundry is showing. Plenty of fans and players (of other teams) think Tom Brady and Bill Belichick are arrogant jerks: www.google.com/webhp#q=tom+brady+arrogantYou'll find more than 0 people defending Brady though.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:45:46 GMT -5
Harper probably shouldn't have started it in the newspapers with the Machado thing then. Being a dick is what gets you into fights, whether you want to justify it or not. Eventually someone snaps. I didn't go defending the a-holes I'd go out with in college when they'd get drunk and get beat up and didn't come up with anti-violence rhetoric like my mom would when I was 12 and got into a fight because I was getting bullied. That's life. Don't be a dick is the lesson. Harper was calling Papelbon out on an intentional HBP, which is something every morally sound person should do. A good teammate does it in the locker room, not to reporters.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 15:45:59 GMT -5
Why is it a bad thing? Simply put, its about respect. Respect the game, respect your teammates, and respect your peers. I don't see in that his game or his interviews, and apparently neither does the league. But take Mike Trout for example....roughly the same age and the same talent level, and I don't think this situation would elicit the same response from other players if it had been Trout who was confronted. So its not all about success, its about Harper being a giant $%#@. If you act like one, someone might put you in your place after a while. Also, I do respect Harper's talents. How can you not? He's going to be a star in this league for a long time. But just like Barry Bonds, that doesn't necessarily make you a desirable teammate, and thats something that needs to be considered when building a team. Compare Harper to Mookie or Xander while we're at it. Talent has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Dicks are not liked. Does arrogance make one a dick?
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 15:46:09 GMT -5
You'll find more than 0 people defending Brady though. ...and you'll find more than 0 people defending Harper, some of whom have been quoted above.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 15:46:45 GMT -5
You'll find more than 0 people defending Brady though. Everyone is defending Harper. From Passan, to Law, to Kilgore, to me.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:48:23 GMT -5
Compare Harper to Mookie or Xander while we're at it. Talent has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Dicks are not liked. Does arrogance make one a dick? You do realize that none of us know Harper at all right? So all you can possibly go by is what other players who know him say. If you want to say "all baseball players with an opinion on Harper are wrong", well I guess there's not much else to talk about.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 15:49:35 GMT -5
Does arrogance make one a dick? You do realize that none of us know Harper at all right? So all you can possibly go by is what other players who know him say. If you want to say "all baseball players with an opinion on Harper are wrong", well I guess there's not much else to talk about. Torii Hunter also believes gays are bad for baseball. Players are stupid.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 15:50:17 GMT -5
Why is it a bad thing? Simply put, its about respect. Respect the game, respect your teammates, and respect your peers. I don't see in that his game or his interviews, and apparently neither does the league. But take Mike Trout for example....roughly the same age and the same talent level, and I don't think this situation would elicit the same response from other players if it had been Trout who was confronted. So its not all about success, its about Harper being a giant $%#@. If you act like one, someone might put you in your place after a while. In what ways did he disrespect his teammates and peers? Jonathan Papelbon certainly doesn't seem deserving of his respect-- he threw at a guy's head for lingering one second too many after a home run and then assaulted a teammate for daring to talk back at him. Is that the kind of morally righteous behavior you think should be upheld?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:50:46 GMT -5
You'll find more than 0 people defending Brady though. ...and you'll find more than 0 people defending Harper, some of whom have been quoted above. Haven't seen any players or teammates quoted above.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:51:20 GMT -5
You do realize that none of us know Harper at all right? So all you can possibly go by is what other players who know him say. If you want to say "all baseball players with an opinion on Harper are wrong", well I guess there's not much else to talk about. Torii Hunter also believes gays are bad for baseball. Players are stupid. All of them are stupid and wrong?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:53:16 GMT -5
But of course every single one of these players are wrong and these guys on an internet message board who don't know anyone in baseball know more than them.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 15:55:28 GMT -5
Yeah, its really not. Many of Harper's supporters want to believe the hate stems from his success, but it seems obvious to me its at least coupled with his overall attitude and persona ( in other words, being a giant dick, which Brady is not). Is that worthy of being "choked out" or more accurately, shoved? Probably not, but it is worthy of someone at least calling him out.....and once you bark back (which Harper did), you run the risk of things turning physical. Your laundry is showing. Plenty of fans and players (of other teams) think Tom Brady and Bill Belichick are arrogant jerks: www.google.com/webhp#q=tom+brady+arrogantOkay I get a fair portion of the league has a problem with Brady...mostly the people that have lost to him repeatedly over the last 15 years. If you spend any time watching and listening to Brady and Harper, you get that they're cut out of a different cloth. They're both amazing talents for sure, however one is by all accounts, an incredible teammate and the other is not. I'm done with the comparison to Brady though, thats silly to begin with which was my point. I'm really not trying to fully defend Papelbon's actions. I'm just suggesting that if someone feels that you bring a level of disrespect to the game, you're going to get called out and confronted on it eventually. Thats what I'm OK with. Its not at all surprising that one of Harper's teammates tried to put him to sleep. Its quite frankly, not a big story in my opinion, I'm surprised its gotten this response.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 15:56:41 GMT -5
Torii Hunter also believes gays are bad for baseball. Players are stupid. All of them are stupid and wrong? (a) it wouldn't be the first time they proved to be stupid and wrong-- see, e.g., desegregation, homophobia, etc. (b) you need to defend the underlying logic of "disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to justify being physically assaulted." So, let's hear it.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 15:58:17 GMT -5
...and you'll find more than 0 people defending Harper, some of whom have been quoted above. Haven't seen any players or teammates quoted above. I'll leave this here. @jeffpassan: If @cjnitkowski's sampling on the Harper-Papelbon dust-up truly is indicative of the sentiment around baseball, baseball is an insane place.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 15:59:53 GMT -5
Why is it a bad thing? Simply put, its about respect. Respect the game, respect your teammates, and respect your peers. I don't see in that his game or his interviews, and apparently neither does the league. But take Mike Trout for example....roughly the same age and the same talent level, and I don't think this situation would elicit the same response from other players if it had been Trout who was confronted. So its not all about success, its about Harper being a giant $%#@. If you act like one, someone might put you in your place after a while. In what ways did he disrespect his teammates and peers? Jonathan Papelbon certainly doesn't seem deserving of his respect-- he threw at a guy's head for lingering one second too many after a home run and then assaulted a teammate for daring to talk back at him. Is that the kind of morally righteous behavior you think should be upheld? Nope, I don't believe Papelbon deserves a ton of respect either....thats a totally different case though. I'm free to believe that neither player should really demand our respect as human beings.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 15:59:44 GMT -5
All of them are stupid and wrong? (a) it wouldn't be the first time they proved to be stupid and wrong-- see, e.g., desegregation, homophobia, etc. (b) you need to defend the underlying logic of "disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to justify being physically assaulted." So, let's hear it. You can't equate dislike of Harper to any kind of racism or any other ism. He's a dick, which is not a protected class. It's still PC to not like a-holes, especially white ones. I don't really care if poor Bryce Harper was almost assaulted. I hope he's getting psychological treatment for it. Maybe if he wasn't a dick it wouldn't have happened. Maybe in the future he can work on trying to gain respect of his teammates or care about it at all.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:01:34 GMT -5
All of them are stupid and wrong? (a) it wouldn't be the first time they proved to be stupid and wrong-- see, e.g., desegregation, homophobia, etc. (b) you need to defend the underlying logic of "disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to justify being physically assaulted." So, let's hear it. To add to this, players generally believe it's OK to throw at a hitter because "it's part of the game". Does that make it any less dangerous and morally wrong? Harper stands up for this bad **** and is called an ***hole. Messed up world we live in.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 16:02:54 GMT -5
All of them are stupid and wrong? (a) it wouldn't be the first time they proved to be stupid and wrong-- see, e.g., desegregation, homophobia, etc. (b) you need to defend the underlying logic of "disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to justify being physically assaulted." So, let's hear it. Disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to be called out....if your reaction to the calling out is to lash back out, then you're opening yourself up to all sorts of trouble.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:03:24 GMT -5
(a) it wouldn't be the first time they proved to be stupid and wrong-- see, e.g., desegregation, homophobia, etc. (b) you need to defend the underlying logic of "disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to justify being physically assaulted." So, let's hear it. You can't equate dislike of Harper to any kind of racism or any other ism. He's a dick, which is not a protected class. It's still PC to not like a-holes, especially white ones. I don't really care if poor Bryce Harper was almost assaulted. I hope he's getting psychological treatment for it. Maybe if he wasn't a dick it wouldn't have happened. Maybe in the future he can work on trying to gain respect of his teammates or care about it at all. So you're doubling down on the argument that jerks deserve to be physically assaulted. Yeah, good luck with that.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:04:06 GMT -5
(a) it wouldn't be the first time they proved to be stupid and wrong-- see, e.g., desegregation, homophobia, etc. (b) you need to defend the underlying logic of "disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to justify being physically assaulted." So, let's hear it. Disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to be called out....if your reaction to the calling out is to lash back out, then you're opening yourself up to all sorts of trouble. Do you think Ortiz is an ***hole who disrepects the game? Price and Archer sure think he is.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:04:55 GMT -5
Disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to be called out....if your reaction to the calling out is to lash back out, then you're opening yourself up to all sorts of trouble. I would like to hear your explanation for the bolded argument. What does "disrespecting the game" means and why is it a bad enough offense to be called out.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:07:23 GMT -5
(a) it wouldn't be the first time they proved to be stupid and wrong-- see, e.g., desegregation, homophobia, etc. (b) you need to defend the underlying logic of "disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to justify being physically assaulted." So, let's hear it. To add to this, players generally believe it's OK to throw at a hitter because "it's part of the game". Does that make it any less dangerous and morally wrong? Harper stands up for this bad shit and is called an asshole. Messed up world we live in. He did it to the media and not directly to Papelbon. Who wouldn't be pissed about that? You ever have a co-worker go to your boss and try to get you in trouble instead of just going directly to you? It's complete BS.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:08:20 GMT -5
You can't equate dislike of Harper to any kind of racism or any other ism. He's a dick, which is not a protected class. It's still PC to not like a-holes, especially white ones. I don't really care if poor Bryce Harper was almost assaulted. I hope he's getting psychological treatment for it. Maybe if he wasn't a dick it wouldn't have happened. Maybe in the future he can work on trying to gain respect of his teammates or care about it at all. So you're doubling down on the argument that jerks deserve to be physically assaulted. Yeah, good luck with that. Whether they deserve it or not is not the question. He could have avoided it pretty easily. He's hardly a victim. There aren't going to be any articles about the poor drunk people who get beat up because they didn't know when to stop being an a-hole at the bar.
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