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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:11:01 GMT -5
To add to this, players generally believe it's OK to throw at a hitter because "it's part of the game". Does that make it any less dangerous and morally wrong? Harper stands up for this bad shit and is called an asshole. Messed up world we live in. He did it to the media and not directly to Papelbon. Who wouldn't be pissed about that? You ever have a co-worker go to your boss and try to get you in trouble instead of just going directly to you? It's complete BS. Maybe because he thinks he is the one getting hit and wants to address this publicly so that he doesn't.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:11:25 GMT -5
So you're doubling down on the argument that jerks deserve to be physically assaulted. Yeah, good luck with that. Whether they deserve it or not is not the question. He could have avoided it pretty easily. He's hardly a victim. That's really the entire question. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only argument that I hear you and ramireja making here are "well, he deserved it." If I'm misstating your point of view, please elaborate.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:12:12 GMT -5
He did it to the media and not directly to Papelbon. Who wouldn't be pissed about that? You ever have a co-worker go to your boss and try to get you in trouble instead of just going directly to you? It's complete BS. Maybe because he thinks he is the one getting hit and wants to address this publicly so that he doesn't. So maybe he was only worried about himself and not Machado? That kind of fits the narrative, huh?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:14:58 GMT -5
Whether they deserve it or not is not the question. He could have avoided it pretty easily. He's hardly a victim. That's really the entire question. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only argument that I hear you and ramireja making here are "well, he deserved it." If I'm misstating your point of view, please elaborate. You gonna defend George Zimmerman if gets beat up for posting pictures of dead Trayvon Martin on Twitter like he's now doing? "Don't be a dick" is pretty good advice.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:16:37 GMT -5
Maybe because he thinks he is the one getting hit and wants to address this publicly so that he doesn't. So maybe he was only worried about himself and not Machado? That kind of fits the narrative, huh? Facts> your narrative: I mean Manny freaking hit a homer," Harper told reporters after Wednesday's loss, according to The Associated Press. "Walked it off and somebody drilled him. I mean, it's pretty tired. It's one of those situations where it happens and, I don't know, I'll probably get drilled tomorrow."
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 16:16:57 GMT -5
Disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to be called out....if your reaction to the calling out is to lash back out, then you're opening yourself up to all sorts of trouble. I would like to hear your explanation for the bolded argument. What does "disrespecting the game" means and why is it a bad enough offense to be called out. I'll admit that "disrespecting the game" is a vague term, and there are numerous ways to fit this description. Maybe its not running out a fly ball, maybe its a pattern of disrespect and calling out the umps, maybe its a general cold, egotistical, and self-centered attitude in the clubhouse, maybe its the way he marvels at a home run, maybe its " desecrating the Braves logo," maybe its the way he handles his teammates in the media. Its complicated I get it, and on top of that, players aren't always go to either fall clearly on the respect or disrespect side of the line. Its a spectrum. What I'm gathering from my own observations and from opinions held by those who have interacted with him the most (the players), is that Bryce demonstrates a patter of behavior that places him somewhere near the far end of the disrespect side of the spectrum. Am I happy he got "assaulted?" Not really. Am I happy he got called out? Definitely, and its unfortunate it lead to what it did. Why is it worthy of being called out? Because if you exhibit this type of behavior, you're affecting your team negatively, and if affects your team negatively, it needs to be addressed.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:18:07 GMT -5
That's really the entire question. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only argument that I hear you and ramireja making here are "well, he deserved it." If I'm misstating your point of view, please elaborate. You gonna defend George Zimmerman if gets beat up for posting pictures of dead Trayvon Martin on Twitter like he's now doing? "Don't be a dick" is pretty good advice. Absolutely I am. Being a dick does not justify physical assault. An eye for an eye and all that. C'mon man, this is really fundamental stuff.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:19:21 GMT -5
I would like to hear your explanation for the bolded argument. What does "disrespecting the game" means and why is it a bad enough offense to be called out. I'll admit that "disrespecting the game" is a vague term, and there are numerous ways to fit this description. Maybe its not running out a fly ball, maybe its a pattern of disrespect and calling out the umps, maybe its a general cold, egotistical, and self-centered attitude in the clubhouse, maybe its the way he marvels at a home run, maybe its " desecrating the Braves logo," maybe its the way he handles his teammates in the media. Its complicated I get it, and on top of that, players aren't always go to either fall clearly on the respect or disrespect side of the line. Its a spectrum. What I'm gathering from my own observations and from opinions held by those who have interacted with him the most (the players), is that Bryce demonstrates a patter of behavior that places him somewhere near the far end of the disrespect side of the spectrum. Am I happy he got "assaulted?" Not really. Am I happy he got called out? Definitely, and its unfortunate it lead to what it did. Why is it worthy of being called out? Because if you exhibit this type of behavior, you're affecting your team negatively, and if affects your team negatively, it needs to be addressed. How does his arrogance affect his team negatively?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:22:00 GMT -5
I'll admit that "disrespecting the game" is a vague term, and there are numerous ways to fit this description. Maybe its not running out a fly ball, maybe its a pattern of disrespect and calling out the umps, maybe its a general cold, egotistical, and self-centered attitude in the clubhouse, maybe its the way he marvels at a home run, maybe its " desecrating the Braves logo," maybe its the way he handles his teammates in the media. Its complicated I get it, and on top of that, players aren't always go to either fall clearly on the respect or disrespect side of the line. Its a spectrum. What I'm gathering from my own observations and from opinions held by those who have interacted with him the most (the players), is that Bryce demonstrates a patter of behavior that places him somewhere near the far end of the disrespect side of the spectrum. Am I happy he got "assaulted?" Not really. Am I happy he got called out? Definitely, and its unfortunate it lead to what it did. Why is it worthy of being called out? Because if you exhibit this type of behavior, you're affecting your team negatively, and if affects your team negatively, it needs to be addressed. How does his arrogance affect his team negatively? Well in this case, a player is suspended for 4 games which is directly related to his lack of ability to get along with his teammates. Did Papelbon ever try to choke a Red Sox or Phillies player? Probably, I don't know. That's one case. I bet if Papelbon wouldn't try to choke Mookie or Xander.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:23:20 GMT -5
How does his arrogance affect his team negatively? Well in this case, a player is suspended for 4 games which is directly related to his lack of ability to get along with his teammates. Did Papelbon ever try to choke a Red Sox or Phillies player? Probably, I don't know. That's one case. I bet if Papelbon wouldn't try to choke Mookie or Xander. You're blaming Harper for Papelbon's suspension? I mean, seriously?
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:24:57 GMT -5
The bad play of guys on his team affect their team. He's a player who didn't run a routine fly ball. He's a player who supports a player from another team (respecting the game anyone?) I'm sure you two are big fans of Brian 'fun police' McCann. Should Ortiz, Betts and Bogaerts hide their golden chains? I think they disrepect the game because of that. Harper sure does with his eye black.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:25:50 GMT -5
How does his arrogance affect his team negatively? Well in this case, a player is suspended for 4 games which is directly related to his lack of ability to get along with his teammates. Did Papelbon ever try to choke a Red Sox or Phillies player? Probably, I don't know. That's one case. I bet if Papelbon wouldn't try to choke Mookie or Xander. Papelbon did grab his grotch as a big f- you to all Phillies fans.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:29:59 GMT -5
You gonna defend George Zimmerman if gets beat up for posting pictures of dead Trayvon Martin on Twitter like he's now doing? "Don't be a dick" is pretty good advice. Absolutely I am. Being a dick does not justify physical assault. An eye for an eye and all that. C'mon man, this is really fundamental stuff. Can you at least concede that some people deserve it less than others? Go start up an advocacy group for drunk people who get beat up for getting too drunk and mouthing off to everyone in bars. Sometimes, it's pretty easy to avoid physical assault, such as not screaming in Papelbon's face or just by making an effort to getting along with people in general more often.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,903
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Post by nomar on Sept 28, 2015 16:30:23 GMT -5
Well in this case, a player is suspended for 4 games which is directly related to his lack of ability to get along with his teammates. Did Papelbon ever try to choke a Red Sox or Phillies player? Probably, I don't know. That's one case. I bet if Papelbon wouldn't try to choke Mookie or Xander. Papelbon did grab his grotch as a big f- you to all Phillies fans. So did Amaro, metaphorically.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 16:30:42 GMT -5
I'll admit that "disrespecting the game" is a vague term, and there are numerous ways to fit this description. Maybe its not running out a fly ball, maybe its a pattern of disrespect and calling out the umps, maybe its a general cold, egotistical, and self-centered attitude in the clubhouse, maybe its the way he marvels at a home run, maybe its " desecrating the Braves logo," maybe its the way he handles his teammates in the media. Its complicated I get it, and on top of that, players aren't always go to either fall clearly on the respect or disrespect side of the line. Its a spectrum. What I'm gathering from my own observations and from opinions held by those who have interacted with him the most (the players), is that Bryce demonstrates a patter of behavior that places him somewhere near the far end of the disrespect side of the spectrum. Am I happy he got "assaulted?" Not really. Am I happy he got called out? Definitely, and its unfortunate it lead to what it did. Why is it worthy of being called out? Because if you exhibit this type of behavior, you're affecting your team negatively, and if affects your team negatively, it needs to be addressed. How does his arrogance affect his team negatively? Well its beyond arrogance first off.....it could be all sorts of things way above and beyond what I posted above. I thought I established that, but perhaps you're not buying it. How could those things affect a team negatively? C'mon, do you want me to make a list? If you don't think that team chemistry and being a good teammate matters at all in baseball, then we might have to agree to disagree. But yeah to summarize one of your earlier points, my argument is that Harper's pattern of behavior deserves addressing. That it lead to physical confrontation, is somewhat unfortunate, but not all that unexpected given his reaction to Papelbon's calling out.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:31:40 GMT -5
Well in this case, a player is suspended for 4 games which is directly related to his lack of ability to get along with his teammates. Did Papelbon ever try to choke a Red Sox or Phillies player? Probably, I don't know. That's one case. I bet if Papelbon wouldn't try to choke Mookie or Xander. Papelbon did grab his grotch as a big f- you to all Phillies fans. I think Papelbon is a dick also. But it's telling that more players side with him on this one.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:34:01 GMT -5
Well in this case, a player is suspended for 4 games which is directly related to his lack of ability to get along with his teammates. Did Papelbon ever try to choke a Red Sox or Phillies player? Probably, I don't know. That's one case. I bet if Papelbon wouldn't try to choke Mookie or Xander. You're blaming Harper for Papelbon's suspension? I mean, seriously? And you're not giving Harper any blame whatsoever. The innocent victim who is universally hated by everyone unjustifiably. Poor guy. Seriously?
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:34:07 GMT -5
How does his arrogance affect his team negatively? Well its beyond arrogance first off.....it could be all sorts of things way above and beyond what I posted above. I thought I established that, but perhaps you're not buying it. How could those things affect a team negatively? C'mon, do you want me to make a list? If you don't think that team chemistry and being a good teammate matters at all in baseball, then we might have to agree to disagree. But yeah to summarize one of your earlier points, my argument is that Harper's pattern of behavior deserves addressing. That it lead to physical confrontation, is somewhat unfortunate, but not all that unexpected given his reaction to Papelbon's calling out. Let's say his 10+ WAR is slightly more important to his team than his attitude.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Sept 28, 2015 16:36:10 GMT -5
I think there is a disconnect between 'being a jerk' and 'teammates not liking him'. There are a lot of jerks out there who get along just fine with their teammates, and I'm sure each of us has had a friend who, if we were asked to describe him, would say "yeah - he's an A-hole".
Being a good teammate (or in the above example 'friend') is something very different. Based on what we have seen/read, Harper might be a jerk, but even worse, his teammate's don't like him.
Overall I think this is a concept better understood the more time you have spent playing organized sports. To be honest it doesn't make sense in many ways, but at the end of the day, it probably has more to do with 'loyalty' than anything else. Once the season ends, many of the players are going their own way, but during the season it's important that they feel 'loyal' to each other. It appears Harper is struggling with this part.
Papelbon is an outspoken A-hole. We all knew that already.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 16:36:58 GMT -5
Well its beyond arrogance first off.....it could be all sorts of things way above and beyond what I posted above. I thought I established that, but perhaps you're not buying it. How could those things affect a team negatively? C'mon, do you want me to make a list? If you don't think that team chemistry and being a good teammate matters at all in baseball, then we might have to agree to disagree. But yeah to summarize one of your earlier points, my argument is that Harper's pattern of behavior deserves addressing. That it lead to physical confrontation, is somewhat unfortunate, but not all that unexpected given his reaction to Papelbon's calling out. Let's say his 10+ WAR is slightly more important to his team than his attitude. 10+ WAR sure did them a lot of good getting to the playoffs...
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:37:00 GMT -5
Well its beyond arrogance first off.....it could be all sorts of things way above and beyond what I posted above. I thought I established that, but perhaps you're not buying it. How could those things affect a team negatively? C'mon, do you want me to make a list? If you don't think that team chemistry and being a good teammate matters at all in baseball, then we might have to agree to disagree. But yeah to summarize one of your earlier points, my argument is that Harper's pattern of behavior deserves addressing. That it lead to physical confrontation, is somewhat unfortunate, but not all that unexpected given his reaction to Papelbon's calling out. Let's say his 10+ WAR is slightly more important to his team than his attitude. And it's also a license to act however he wants I suppose. His talent is not disputed.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:38:56 GMT -5
Absolutely I am. Being a dick does not justify physical assault. An eye for an eye and all that. C'mon man, this is really fundamental stuff. Can you at least concede that some people deserve it less than others? Go start up an advocacy group for drunk people who get beat up for getting too drunk and mouthing off to everyone in bars. Sometimes, it's pretty easy to avoid physical assault, such as not screaming in Papelbon's face or just by making an effort to getting along with people in general more often. I agree. But you don't know if he's a bad team mate and I don't know if he's a good one, but you just assume he isn't? Innocent until proven otherwise...Please don't point to the players who are the example of thoughtful, educated, morally good people.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:41:02 GMT -5
Let's say his 10+ WAR is slightly more important to his team than his attitude. 10+ WAR sure did them a lot of good getting to the playoffs... Let me guess. You believe that Cespeses should win the MVP. You wouldn't recognize a once in a generation player if he hit you in the face.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:41:03 GMT -5
Can you at least concede that some people deserve it less than others? Go start up an advocacy group for drunk people who get beat up for getting too drunk and mouthing off to everyone in bars. Sometimes, it's pretty easy to avoid physical assault, such as not screaming in Papelbon's face or just by making an effort to getting along with people in general more often. I agree. But you don't know if he's a bad team mate and I don't know if he's a good one, but you just assume he isn't? Not guilty until proven otherwise...Please don't point to the players who are the example of thoughtful, educated, morally good people. I'm assuming that Nitkowski's quotes from players aren't made up. I've yet to see quotes from players defending Harper. Quotes from players are literally our ONLY insight to what kind of person Harper is. I mean can you imagine anyone saying anything close to what they're saying about Harper in regards to Xander or Mookie? No, we cannot. Because their makeup is off the charts, unlike Harper's.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:44:55 GMT -5
I can't even believe we're having a discussion about this. Let's agree to disagree. Anyone up for a poll?
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