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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 17:28:07 GMT -5
More broadly, I don't think anything that Harper is accused of doing should make him be regarded as a bad teammate. The root cause of all this is the idea that the unwritten rules of baseball should be upheld and are the normatively correct way to play the game. I think that's bull****. The unwritten rules are arbitrary, hypocritical nonsense: deadspin.com/a-major-league-pitchers-guide-to-baseballs-bullshit-unw-1585433770
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 17:29:06 GMT -5
Player is arrogant -> player is a dick and a bad teammate who should be called out and thrown at because he's bad for baseball and his team. OK. This is the evidence. Let's hear some counter-claims.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:30:11 GMT -5
You don't think Ortiz throwing his manager under the bus is any worse than what Harper did? I mean you're building a bit of a straw man here. You're the only one who wants to compare this situation to Ortiz. I haven't defended an action of Ortiz, all I've said is that I think he is probably a good teammate. He's certainly not perfect. If he consistently acted in a way that was detrimental to the team, I'd expect him to get called out on it, I don't care how good he is. Take Manny for example. I don't think Schilling was out of line in any of his actions towards Manny despite everything Manny brought to the team from a talent standpoint. I'm just saying you support Ortiz because he hits homers for your favorite team. I do too. I don't think he's an a-hole either. Don't you think Nationals players and fans feel the same way about Harper?
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:32:27 GMT -5
Player is arrogant -> player is a dick and a bad teammate who should be called out and thrown at because he's bad for baseball and his team. OK. This is the evidence. Let's hear some counter-claims. You are wrong on so many levels it's hilarious. Promoting violence. Wow.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 17:33:59 GMT -5
Player is arrogant -> player is a dick and a bad teammate who should be called out and thrown at because he's bad for baseball and his team. OK. Nope, not what we're saying. Who said he should be thrown at? Look, its simple, if you act in a way thats detrimental to the clubhouse you should be called out on it? Whats so hard to follow about that argument?
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:34:43 GMT -5
“We’re used to it,” said Ryan Zimmerman to Amanda Comak of the Washington Times following Monday's game. “I would rather him not go all-out into the wall, ever. But that’s the way Bryce plays. That’s the way he’s always played, and I think some people look at it as a bad thing, maybe, and that’s why people boo or don’t like him. As a player and as someone who plays the game, if you play that hard every day, there’s something to be said about that. And that’s what Bryce does.” mweb.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/22243722/does-bryce-harper-play-too-hardEdit: a (Nats) player talking by the way.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 17:34:44 GMT -5
More broadly, I don't think anything that Harper is accused of doing should make him be regarded as a bad teammate. The root cause of all this is the idea that the unwritten rules of baseball should be upheld and are the normatively correct way to play the game. I think that's bull****. The unwritten rules are arbitrary, hypocritical nonsense: deadspin.com/a-major-league-pitchers-guide-to-baseballs-bullshit-unw-1585433770It's so nice that we don't have to worry about this on the Red Sox. The young players are all respectful and care about getting along with veterans and would do anything for the team. Whether the unwritten rules are right or wrong doesn't matter. What matters is that players try to be good teammates and act in a way that teammates respect. Remember when Papi called Castillo out last year for not helping a baserunner that was running home? Castillo sat there and listened. There was no fallout.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:35:40 GMT -5
Player is arrogant -> player is a dick and a bad teammate who should be called out and thrown at because he's bad for baseball and his team. OK. Nope, not what we're saying. Who said he should be thrown at? Look, its simple, if you act in a way thats detrimental to the clubhouse you should be called out on it? Whats so hard to follow about that argument? JimEd actually said that
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 17:37:14 GMT -5
I mean you're building a bit of a straw man here. You're the only one who wants to compare this situation to Ortiz. I haven't defended an action of Ortiz, all I've said is that I think he is probably a good teammate. He's certainly not perfect. If he consistently acted in a way that was detrimental to the team, I'd expect him to get called out on it, I don't care how good he is. Take Manny for example. I don't think Schilling was out of line in any of his actions towards Manny despite everything Manny brought to the team from a talent standpoint. I'm just saying you support Ortiz because he hits homers for your favorite team. I do too. I don't think he's an a-hole either. Don't you think Nationals players and fans feel the same way about Harper? Yeah but that has nothing to do with my argument. Simply put, if I thought Ortiz repeatedly acted in a way that was detrimental to the team, I'd want someone to address it. Even if I have a giant man crush on the guy, I can still think rationally about it.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 17:38:09 GMT -5
Nope, not what we're saying. Who said he should be thrown at? Look, its simple, if you act in a way thats detrimental to the clubhouse you should be called out on it? Whats so hard to follow about that argument? JimEd actually said that Where? I posted player quotes.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:39:19 GMT -5
Where? I posted player quotes. OK, my bad. Edit: this is the first I actually read all quotes. But honestly, these quotes just ooze stupidity and borderline insanity right? Veterans are apparently "allowed" to dog running out groundballs when the MVP isn't.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 17:53:24 GMT -5
Whether the unwritten rules are right or wrong doesn't matter. What matters is that players try to be good teammates and act in a way that teammates respect.If the only reason Harper is seen as a bad teammate is because he violates the unwritten rules (which is the only evidence that I've seen provided in this thread-- think pimping homers, not going 100% on popups, etc.), then that's a pretty dumb way to determine who is and is not a good teammate.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:56:22 GMT -5
Player is arrogant -> player is a dick and a bad teammate who should be called out and thrown at because he's bad for baseball and his team. OK. This is the evidence. Let's hear some counter-claims. And are these actually counter arguments or exactly the kind of thing I was painting? And don't tell he doesn't play hard enough. He gave up his body numerous times.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 18:14:59 GMT -5
Whether the unwritten rules are right or wrong doesn't matter. What matters is that players try to be good teammates and act in a way that teammates respect.If the only reason Harper is seen as a bad teammate is because he violates the unwritten rules (which is the only evidence that I've seen provided in this thread-- think pimping homers, not going 100% on popups, etc.), then that's a pretty dumb way to determine who is and is not a good teammate. That's not the only reason, given that Harper called out Papelbon just a few days ago to the media.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 18:17:59 GMT -5
If the only reason Harper is seen as a bad teammate is because he violates the unwritten rules (which is the only evidence that I've seen provided in this thread-- think pimping homers, not going 100% on popups, etc.), then that's a pretty dumb way to determine who is and is not a good teammate. That's not the only reason, given that Harper called out Papelbon just a few days ago to the media. On being a dangerous and childish dick. How dare you Bryce!
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,989
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Post by jimoh on Sept 28, 2015 18:27:18 GMT -5
nothing to contribute in terms of disagreeing with people, but I thought this was interesting: grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-washington-nationals-bryce-harper-jonathan-papelbon-fight-matt-williams/"A few years ago, I asked Evan Brunell, a deaf writer and skilled lipreader, to help me transcribe manager-umpire arguments. I asked Evan to take a look at this confrontation, too. Here’s what he thinks was said: Papelbon: … f***ing go! On the f***ing … Yeah, run the f***ing ball out. [Obscured swearing] … goddamn ball out. Harper: … the f*** up! Are you f***ing kidding me? Chill the f*** out, man. Let’s f***ing go! I’ll f***ing go right — If that transcript is accurate, Harper didn’t exactly deescalate, but this was all posturing until Papelbon charged without waiting to find out what would happen when Harper said “now.” In a span of five days, the 34-year-old Papelbon clashed with two athletes in their early 20s and managed to look like the one with the worst attitude and impulse control. He’s a Vin Scully clothesline away from having physically assaulted three of the best things about baseball. And while some people can’t help having infuriating faces, Papelbon wasn’t even trying to hide his smug grin."
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 18:45:46 GMT -5
“We’re used to it,” said Ryan Zimmerman to Amanda Comak of the Washington Times following Monday's game. “I would rather him not go all-out into the wall, ever. But that’s the way Bryce plays. That’s the way he’s always played, and I think some people look at it as a bad thing, maybe, and that’s why people boo or don’t like him. As a player and as someone who plays the game, if you play that hard every day, there’s something to be said about that. And that’s what Bryce does.” mweb.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/22243722/does-bryce-harper-play-too-hardEdit: a (Nats) player talking by the way. The guy clearly plays hard in the OF...I mean he plays the game hard generally speaking. I don't think thats the problem with his behavior.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Sept 28, 2015 18:56:22 GMT -5
Is it just me or does this entire conversation remind you of blaming a woman when her husband beats her up?
I don't really care if he was a bad teammate. (aka, she was a bad wife)
I don't care that he said things he shouldn't have.
I don't care that he doesn't run out fly balls. I don't care if he walks the bases after a home run. None of that justifies what Papelbon did. And if you're talking about what a dick Harper is then you are taking the focus off the thing that matters - Papelbon assaulted his teammate. Thats it. Stop trying to make this about Harper and who he is, because it doesn't matter. Nitkowski should be ashamed for taking the attention off what matters and using being physically assaulted as an excuse to highlight Harper's shortcomings as a teammate.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 28, 2015 19:31:16 GMT -5
Is it just me or does this entire conversation remind you of blaming a woman when her husband beats her up. No, it's classic victim blaming.
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Post by plantierforever on Sept 28, 2015 20:39:43 GMT -5
Allow me to add the perspective of someone who actually lives in DC, watches boatloads of Nats games (wish I could trade MASN for NESN, but whatever), reads the papers everyday, follows the buzz about the Nats, etc.
Everybody in DC sides with Harper, and everybody wants Papelbon gone yesterday. There is a meme going around Twitter to the effect of "I will donate X dollars to Y charity if the Nats cut Papelbon tomorrow."
Obviously I have no idea what goes on in the Nats clubhouse, but people in DC like Harper's persona. People wear his jersey number everywhere. Yeah, he had a rep as being kind of arrogant when he was coming up--but wouldn't you be a touch arrogant if you had 80-level power at age 17? I can't think of a single instance, however, when something got into the press about him being a dick to a teammate or a member of the public. He keeps a low profile around here, because he understands he's a superstar and is under scrutiny. People recall and love his understated demolishing of the reporter who asked him about underage drinking--"That's a clown question, bro."
This doesn't feel at all like late-vintage Manny, where everybody--fans and players alike--understood that he was a huge dick but put up with him so long as he produced. None of the DC scribes has ever written about Harper like CHB used to write about Manny.
A year or two ago, people worried about Harper playing with too much reckless abandon. This caused him to lose many games to injury last year. Nobody here seriously questions his effort. Everyone recognizes he's the MVP, and we like him.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 21:22:36 GMT -5
This is getting ridiculous. Lets not compare this to a man beating a woman. These are two grown men who were both very heated and it ended up getting physical for all of 2 seconds. This isn't even like a Papelbon sucker punch or something.
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atzar
Veteran
Posts: 1,817
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Post by atzar on Sept 28, 2015 21:59:52 GMT -5
This is getting ridiculous. Lets not compare this to a man beating a woman. These are two grown men who were both very heated and it ended up getting physical for all of 2 seconds. This isn't even like a Papelbon sucker punch or something. ...he tried to choke the dude. You really can't downplay that.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 22:05:39 GMT -5
This is getting ridiculous. Lets not compare this to a man beating a woman. These are two grown men who were both very heated and it ended up getting physical for all of 2 seconds. This isn't even like a Papelbon sucker punch or something. ...he tried to choke the dude. You really can't downplay that. Honestly, the intent looked more like a shove than a "I'm going to choke you unconscious" move. Not to mention, all of this happens in the dugout where everyone is well aware that any fight has a shelf life of less than 3 seconds. What he didn't do, is strike a woman, so can we please not go there.
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dd
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Posts: 979
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Post by dd on Sept 28, 2015 22:20:48 GMT -5
You gonna defend George Zimmerman if gets beat up for posting pictures of dead Trayvon Martin on Twitter like he's now doing? "Don't be a dick" is pretty good advice. Absolutely I am. Being a dick does not justify physical assault. An eye for an eye and all that. C'mon man, this is really fundamental stuff. Wow. jmei, I know you din't bring up Zimmerman/Martin, but still, nobody got killed in the dugout and nobody posted pictures of the body. It's not quite the same! I think you need to sit back and relax with a good glass of wine. There are 2 issues here. 1) Is the physical assault justified. 2) Did the victim deserve it. In the Zimmerman case I think NO and Yes. In the Nats dugout, NO and ... ... ... probably not but I'm having trouble being sorry it happened to him. And as for being a dick, hell ... it's my name!
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 28, 2015 23:18:20 GMT -5
I don't think violence has any place in the game. Period. (Or anywhere else for that matter.)
Papelbon is clearly in the wrong. There's no two ways about it.
Harper certainly challenged him, though. It sounds like Harper was challenging him to a fight and Papelbon responded, so you have two guys very much in the wrong, from what I can see.
I don't think Harper is an absolute "victim" here.
I think the timing on Papelbon's to call him out for not running out the grounder was poor. That's something he could have done in private in the clubhouse. He didn't have to do it in the heat of the moment in the dugout. That was poor judgment on his part.
Harper could have said something to the affect that this isn't the time and place for this conversation instead of swearing at Papelbon and daring him to fight (I do believe the lip reader has what was said and is generally accurate about it as it makes logical sense).
So you have very poor judgment by a cocky 35 year old know-it-all veteran and a cocky young 23 year old arrogant superstar.
I agree with Papelbon getting suspended and I agree with Harper getting sat down for a game.
It's hard to like or agree with either one of these guys in this situation.
If either had a brain or an ounce of maturity, they could have discussed it in private like men. Unfortunately, neither one does so they responded as dimwitted neanderthals would.
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