SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,790
|
Post by nomar on Aug 11, 2016 11:39:01 GMT -5
I didn't get the game last night on TV here in Florida. All I can tell is from the box score, and it seemed Pomeranz was pitching pretty well. Once they took him out, the pen just gave us no chance at all. Now, let me 1st say I haven't been on board with a lot of you about Farrell needs to go, but I have to ask...why was he taken out after 5 1/3 innings last night? His progress and comfort are of huge importance to us getting to the playoffs. It's easy to be a Monday night quarterback, but should he have been kept in? I measure a successful start as 6+ innings and 2 or less runs. Pomeranz's line looked like we could have gotten there. Thoughts? He was in trouble. Couldn't buy an out then Clay came in with two on and got a GIDP. At the time it was big. Not a bad outing but he just hits a wall every time he starts where it quickly gets very ugly.
|
|
|
Post by barney27 on Aug 11, 2016 11:42:37 GMT -5
If you can not trade them put clay and taz, maybe abad on dl and bring up Kelly, Hembree and shepherd and see what they can do. I know we just got abad, but look all he has done for us. No body in the pen is a shutdown guy right now. Maybe something clicks this year. Then we get some insight as to what do this winter. Looks like maybe 7 or 8 guys in a logjam for maybe 4 spots.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 11, 2016 12:34:02 GMT -5
If you can not trade them put clay and taz, maybe abad on dl and bring up Kelly, Hembree and shepherd and see what they can do. I know we just got abad, but look all he has done for us. No body in the pen is a shutdown guy right now. Maybe something clicks this year. Then we get some insight as to what do this winter. Looks like maybe 7 or 8 guys in a logjam for maybe 4 spots. What sense does it make to trade or DL a healthy pitcher in Clay Buchholz who is finally pitching well and is actually needed to start because of Wright's injury? Is Abad injured? If not, they're not going to DL him. Same with Tazawa although it's a good guess that he's probably worn out, but it's not like Kelly and Hembree are guarantees to be better. Kelly wasn't exactly missing bats when he was last up and Hembree was struggling when he got sent down. It's kind of like rearranging furniture. The bullpen mirrors the team in a way in that as individuals, these are decent to good pitchers but collectively they're unreliable and frustrating.
|
|
|
Post by barney27 on Aug 11, 2016 13:31:05 GMT -5
If you can not trade them put clay and taz, maybe abad on dl and bring up Kelly, Hembree and shepherd and see what they can do. I know we just got abad, but look all he has done for us. No body in the pen is a shutdown guy right now. Maybe something clicks this year. Then we get some insight as to what do this winter. Looks like maybe 7 or 8 guys in a logjam for maybe 4 spots. What sense does it make to trade or DL a healthy pitcher in Clay Buchholz who is finally pitching well and is actually needed to start because of Wright's injury? Is Abad injured? If not, they're not going to DL him. Same with Tazawa although it's a good guess that he's probably worn out, but it's not like Kelly and Hembree are guarantees to be better. Kelly wasn't exactly missing bats when he was last up and Hembree was struggling when he got sent down. It's kind of like rearranging furniture. The bullpen mirrors the team in a way in that as individuals, these are decent to good pitchers but collectively they're unreliable and frustrating. The idea here was that I do not think that any of the 3 make the team next year. They are not lighting it up ,so they are taking up a space for someone else. Maybe Kelly, hembree and shepherd don't do any better, but you give them a last chance. Maybe all 6 are gone from next year's squad. If you need a starter because of wright then we try owens and Johnson if they crash and burn as well, then we know we need new pitchers in several spots. Knowing clay and company have not delivered then it is time for someone else. It is good to see you are loyal to clay, but except for a long stretch in 13 he is not very reliable.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 11, 2016 14:22:55 GMT -5
What sense does it make to trade or DL a healthy pitcher in Clay Buchholz who is finally pitching well and is actually needed to start because of Wright's injury? Is Abad injured? If not, they're not going to DL him. Same with Tazawa although it's a good guess that he's probably worn out, but it's not like Kelly and Hembree are guarantees to be better. Kelly wasn't exactly missing bats when he was last up and Hembree was struggling when he got sent down. It's kind of like rearranging furniture. The bullpen mirrors the team in a way in that as individuals, these are decent to good pitchers but collectively they're unreliable and frustrating. The idea here was that I do not think that any of the 3 make the team next year. They are not lighting it up ,so they are taking up a space for someone else. Maybe Kelly, hembree and shepherd don't do any better, but you give them a last chance. Maybe all 6 are gone from next year's squad. If you need a starter because of wright then we try owens and Johnson if they crash and burn as well, then we know we need new pitchers in several spots. Knowing clay and company have not delivered then it is time for someone else. It is good to see you are loyal to clay, but except for a long stretch in 13 he is not very reliable. I'm not loyal to Clay - I hope the Sox pick up his option - and trade him. But at this point Clay is actually pitching well - might as well start him - odds are he'd be better than walk the ballpark Owens at this point. They are still trying to win this year and the games are pretty urgent. That's why you go with the guy who gives you a better to chance to win. At this point it would be Buchholz. Owens would be lucky to make it out of the 4th inning with his pitch count. The Red Sox are not out of the race. They need to do what's best for them for this year at this point. Worry about next year next year.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,924
|
Post by ericmvan on Aug 11, 2016 14:23:34 GMT -5
JF's bullpen management in a nutshell:
Junichi Tazawa through May 27:
21 G, 31 ERA-, 52 FIP-, 67 xFIP-, 2.38 SIERA, .238 BABIP, .063 HR/FB, 0.80 WPA, 0.97 inLI. Used in the 6th-7th-8th-9th, 1-11-7-2.
Tazawa since then:
21 G, 150 ERA-, 174 FIP-, 124 xFIP-, 4.23 SIERA, .309 BABIP, .212 HR/FB, -0.53 WPA, 1.46 inLI. Used 1-10-8-2.
He decided before the season that Tazawa was the 3rd best (healthy) reliever, and he used him that way for two months. He stubbornly kept him in that role while he pitched brilliantly and it became clear he should be getting the highest-leverage setup situations ... and then he finally started using him that way at precisely the point he had predictably burnt him to a crisp. And he's still using hm that way 11 weeks later even though he's been as consistently terrible as he used to be dominant.
He was incredibly slow to realize Ross was a valuable reliever, used Barnes in .84 leverage while he was struggling and .62 in his first month being brilliant, and of course is completely wedded to using his pitchers in ascending order of quality (as he perceives it) even if the crucial game situation happens in the 6th instead of the 8th, which of course is fairly common.
For folks who missed it in the game thread, the Sox have had the 10th best bullpen in MLB by almost every metric, but Farrell's managed to get the 20th best results.
Hey, at least bullpen management is less important in the post-season!
|
|
|
Post by GyIantosca on Aug 11, 2016 18:13:44 GMT -5
All these issues in the pen and Martin never can get a shot. I also not a big Kelly fan but I always thought he could succeed in the pen.
I tell you DD one big job is revamping this pen. Also getting a DH. I am done with Hanley and Pablo next year. There is too much talent for these two to block anybody.
Taz is burnt out or hurt, He is smoked. That game was frustrating.
|
|
|
Post by barney27 on Aug 11, 2016 18:43:49 GMT -5
The idea here was that I do not think that any of the 3 make the team next year. They are not lighting it up ,so they are taking up a space for someone else. Maybe Kelly, hembree and shepherd don't do any better, but you give them a last chance. Maybe all 6 are gone from next year's squad. If you need a starter because of wright then we try owens and Johnson if they crash and burn as well, then we know we need new pitchers in several spots. Knowing clay and company have not delivered then it is time for someone else. It is good to see you are loyal to clay, but except for a long stretch in 13 he is not very reliable. I'm not loyal to Clay - I hope the Sox pick up his option - and trade him. But at this point Clay is actually pitching well - might as well start him - odds are he'd be better than walk the ballpark Owens at this point. They are still trying to win this year and the games are pretty urgent. That's why you go with the guy who gives you a better to chance to win. At this point it would be Buchholz. Owens would be lucky to make it out of the 4th inning with his pitch count. The Red Sox are not out of the race. They need to do what's best for them for this year at this point. Worry about next year next year. Clay has pitched well thru out the last 2 seasons. He pitches 5 innings and 4 out of 5 are good but then he gets killed in the 5th. when ever the 5th happens. Could be the first or any of the 5 innings. He has had dozen's of chances. Do you think the sox will keep him next year? If you do then fine start him in place of wright. I am not saying necessaryly that one of the other guys does better, because I have no idea whether they will or not. We are STILL in it and can / will make to the playoffs. If somebody is not really doing the job then try someone else.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 11, 2016 19:42:30 GMT -5
I'm not loyal to Clay - I hope the Sox pick up his option - and trade him. But at this point Clay is actually pitching well - might as well start him - odds are he'd be better than walk the ballpark Owens at this point. They are still trying to win this year and the games are pretty urgent. That's why you go with the guy who gives you a better to chance to win. At this point it would be Buchholz. Owens would be lucky to make it out of the 4th inning with his pitch count. The Red Sox are not out of the race. They need to do what's best for them for this year at this point. Worry about next year next year. Clay has pitched well thru out the last 2 seasons. He pitches 5 innings and 4 out of 5 are good but then he gets killed in the 5th. when ever the 5th happens. Could be the first or any of the 5 innings. He has had dozen's of chances. Do you think the sox will keep him next year? If you do then fine start him in place of wright. I am not saying necessaryly that one of the other guys does better, because I have no idea whether they will or not. We are STILL in it and can / will make to the playoffs. If somebody is not really doing the job then try someone else. I get that you're annoyed with Buchholz. Join the club. I hold him kind of responsible for the Sox making the Pomeranz/Espinoza deal, a deal I wished DDo didn't make or feel he had to make. But the fact of the matter is Buchholz HAS been pitching better of late. I haven't even been cringing when he's been called in relief lately. He's been pitching better. At this point I'd even seriously consider him for the 11th spot on the pitching staff if the Sox made the post-season. If he starts, yeah he might get tattooed in the first and then manage five innings, but there's still a chance he can pitch decently - seems like he's been pitching better since Bannister adjusted his arm slot. Like I said - I do think the Sox will pick up his option because if he pitches well enough he does have trade value. I don't expect him to be on the 2017 Red Sox. I do expect him to be dealt at some point before the season begins. I get the thought process of "If so and so isn't doing the job, try somebody else because it's not like he can be worse". Yet so often, that other guy actually is worse, which is hard to believe. Owens is still walking too many guys. If the Sox thought that Owens was really a solution, they would have brought him back much sooner instead of going to O'Sullivan, Cuevas, and Elias. It's too bad he's been so bad. They could have used Owens this year.
|
|
|
Post by barney27 on Aug 12, 2016 7:15:37 GMT -5
Clay has pitched well thru out the last 2 seasons. He pitches 5 innings and 4 out of 5 are good but then he gets killed in the 5th. when ever the 5th happens. Could be the first or any of the 5 innings. He has had dozen's of chances. Do you think the sox will keep him next year? If you do then fine start him in place of wright. I am not saying necessaryly that one of the other guys does better, because I have no idea whether they will or not. We are STILL in it and can / will make to the playoffs. If somebody is not really doing the job then try someone else. I get that you're annoyed with Buchholz. Join the club. I hold him kind of responsible for the Sox making the Pomeranz/Espinoza deal, a deal I wished DDo didn't make or feel he had to make. But the fact of the matter is Buchholz HAS been pitching better of late. I haven't even been cringing when he's been called in relief lately. He's been pitching better. At this point I'd even seriously consider him for the 11th spot on the pitching staff if the Sox made the post-season. If he starts, yeah he might get tattooed in the first and then manage five innings, but there's still a chance he can pitch decently - seems like he's been pitching better since Bannister adjusted his arm slot. Like I said - I do think the Sox will pick up his option because if he pitches well enough he does have trade value. I don't expect him to be on the 2017 Red Sox. I do expect him to be dealt at some point before the season begins. I get the thought process of "If so and so isn't doing the job, try somebody else because it's not like he can be worse". Yet so often, that other guy actually is worse, which is hard to believe. Owens is still walking too many guys. If the Sox thought that Owens was really a solution, they would have brought him back much sooner instead of going to O'Sullivan, Cuevas, and Elias. It's too bad he's been so bad. They could have used Owens this year. You get the idea, I picked some names as examples. You can pick whoever you want. You are correct it does seem like the result is still the same. Does anyone have any info on Willis the pitching coach? Basic point is that if have guys who are not really doing the job and you do not expect them to be with the team next year try someone else. In the case of owens tall lefties come along slow, maybe not the time to bring him up.
|
|
|
Post by redzone on Aug 13, 2016 10:05:32 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by amfox1 on Aug 13, 2016 11:17:16 GMT -5
Who are you demoting/releasing from the team for Papelbon?
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Aug 13, 2016 11:47:41 GMT -5
Who are you demoting/releasing from the team for Papelbon? Interesting. amfox1 first would you pick up pap, and if you did who would you demote/release
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Aug 13, 2016 11:49:47 GMT -5
Who are you demoting/releasing from the team for Papelbon? Interesting. amfox1 first would you pick up pap, and if you did who would you demote/release Me I am not sure with his background for causing problems in the clubhouse not sure I would pick him up at all.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Aug 13, 2016 12:14:46 GMT -5
Interesting. amfox1 first would you pick up pap, and if you did who would you demote/release Me I am not sure with his background for causing problems in the clubhouse not sure I would pick him up at all. Well, parts of those "problems" were an awful Phillies team (he took the money, so that's on him, but his issues seemed largely about team "effort" being substandard), and a new-school/old-school run-in with Harper. Papelbon seems to have a view of himself as a leader, and he was in a way in Boston, but in Philly and Washington, he's a hired gun without the tenure to back up any abrasiveness. I'm not sure he would have the same issue in Boston this time around, although he's been gone long enough that his former cache is evaporated. But with Pedroia and Papi, he's got two teammates he knows well who are leaders themselves. As for who to DFA, that's a tricky question, and I don't have a good answer. Paps would probably be gone by the end of the year, so you don't want to risk losing a future asset just to sign him.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 13, 2016 13:03:10 GMT -5
No to Papelbon, he's just not the same guy. Walks are way up, he's allowing more hits per 9 than ever before. Fastball is now below 91 mph, a far cry from his 95 mph heater we remember.
|
|
|
Post by amfox1 on Aug 13, 2016 13:33:17 GMT -5
Who are you demoting/releasing from the team for Papelbon? Interesting. amfox1 first would you pick up pap, and if you did who would you demote/release I would not pick him up. He's no longer a late inning option, despite his 19 saves this year. I'd keep things as-is right now and would not panic.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 13, 2016 13:54:29 GMT -5
Their bullpen has blown several recent games in heartbreaking fashion, but that inevitably happens over the course of a long season, and generally, the names in the bullpen are a mix of guys who have strong track records (Kimbrel, Tazawa, Zieger, even Ross and Abad) or young guys with strong recent performance (Barnes, maybe Hembree). In terms of projected rest-of-season performance, Fangraphs has the Red Sox ranking 13th, which is not great, but also not terrible, and just a few fractions of a win behind teams like the Blue Jays and Orioles and Rangers. With that said, one major reason to worry: Tazawa's velocity has been down a lot in recent appearances, and trending downwards. He's typically a guy who averages around 94, but in his last three appearances, he's been 92.7, 92.3 and 92.0. That's a major red flag, and if he's not a reliable setup man going forward, that's a major blow to their depth.
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Aug 13, 2016 14:03:53 GMT -5
Their bullpen has blown several recent games in heartbreaking fashion, but that inevitably happens over the course of a long season, and generally, the names in the bullpen are a mix of guys who have strong track records (Kimbrel, Tazawa, Zieger, even Ross and Abad) or young guys with strong recent performance (Barnes, maybe Hembree). In terms of projected rest-of-season performance, Fangraphs has the Red Sox ranking 13th, which is not great, but also not terrible, and just a few fractions of a win behind teams like the Blue Jays and Orioles and Rangers. With that said, one major reason to worry: Tazawa's velocity has been down a lot in recent appearances, and trending downwards. He's typically a guy who averages around 94, but in his last three appearances, he's been 92.7, 92.3 and 92.0. That's a major red flag, and if he's not a reliable setup man going forward, that's a major blow to their depth. Many people are hot on hembree, is this the time to put taz on dl for 7 to 10 and give him some rest and try hembree to see if he can cut the mustard?
|
|
|
Post by larrycook on Aug 13, 2016 14:19:36 GMT -5
Who are you demoting/releasing from the team for Papelbon? Abad!
|
|
|
Post by grandsalami on Aug 13, 2016 14:30:00 GMT -5
“ evandrellich: As of this morning, it was “way too early” to tell if the Red Sox might be a destination for Jonathan Papelbon one source said. Shipping up?”
|
|
|
Post by p23w on Aug 13, 2016 14:35:11 GMT -5
No to Papelbon, he's just not the same guy. Walks are way up, he's allowing more hits per 9 than ever before. Fastball is now below 91 mph, a far cry from his 95 mph heater we remember. If I had to look at both Paoelbon AND Kimbrel's game face before each pitch.... I'd turn on the radio.
|
|
|
Post by grandsalami on Aug 13, 2016 14:52:59 GMT -5
“@bradfo: According source close to situation, Papelbon would welcome return to Boston. Prioritizing best spot to succeed for remainder of season”
|
|
|
Post by wcsoxfan on Aug 13, 2016 15:39:01 GMT -5
“@bradfo: According source close to situation, Papelbon would welcome return to Boston. Prioritizing best spot to succeed for remainder of season” I wonder if Papelbon would accept a two week minor league deal with an opt-out so he could jump on with another team if things don't work out. It would depend on whether he gets a great offer, but I think he would love to come back and if he rebounds there would be a place for him next year. This team could really use more BP depth
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 13, 2016 17:34:31 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd be alright with the Sox taking a chance on Jonathan Papelbon.
It wouldn't shock me if he came here and was totally cooked - a disaster.
Looking at his numbers, his FIP is ok, his numbers from the recent past are alright. The scouting doesn't look too promising on him.
But the Red Sox bullpen is struggling with both Tazawa and Kimbrel's health being a big X-factor.
I'm not as worried much about his attitude in Boston.
It's kind of ironic. He was always so concerned with being the highest pay reliever of all time, yet becoming a mercenary didn't despite getting a big payday didn't make him happy.
I think he wishes he didn't leave Boston if he had to do it over again.
My guess is he'll go to a team that could use some closing help - Detroit maybe? Perhaps San Fran? But if he's willing to be a bullpen piece who could close if need be, he might be a help in Boston. I doubt he'll be getting into fights with Mookie Betts. The Nats are Harper's team, but in Boston they are Pedroia and Ortiz's team - I think Paps does fine with that.
I'm not sure who gets sent down/released to make this happen. I'm not convinced Tazawa or Kimbrel are healthy. Perhaps one of them should get DL time?
I don't think this reunion will happen, but I don't think it's the worst idea in the world.
Others can disagree and I don't think I'd have a major problem seeing their point of view.
|
|
|