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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2015 10:25:54 GMT -5
Can we please NOT trade for Aroldis Chapman? The price would be astronomical. In addition, how have relief pitchers trades worked out for the Sox in past years? (Anderson/Bagwell, Gagne/Murphy, Bailey/Reddick, Melancon/Lowrie) Sorry bud but this is just silly logic. I'll try to ignore the fact that we do not know the cost and that no matter what we want to say it will be or should be we still don't know it. Go back to the discussion about trading for j Upton from Arizona. He went for way less than everyone here was saying it would take. The biggest issue you have is saying don't trade for relievers because trades other people made in the past didn't work. As if the address of Fenway Park has something to do with failed trades. People used to say Belechick couldn't draft tight ends and that he shouldn't waste draft picks there because Graham and Watson were not close to what people expected. Then Gronk arm Hernandez happened.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 13, 2015 11:42:14 GMT -5
Can we please NOT trade for Aroldis Chapman? The price would be astronomical. In addition, how have relief pitchers trades worked out for the Sox in past years? (Anderson/Bagwell, Gagne/Murphy, Bailey/Reddick, Melancon/Lowrie) Sorry bud but this is just silly logic. I'll try to ignore the fact that we do not know the cost and that no matter what we want to say it will be or should be we still don't know it. Go back to the discussion about trading for j Upton from Arizona. He went for way less than everyone here was saying it would take. The biggest issue you have is saying don't trade for relievers because trades other people made in the past didn't work. As if the address of Fenway Park has something to do with failed trades. People used to say Belechick couldn't draft tight ends and that he shouldn't waste draft picks there because Graham and Watson were not close to what people expected. Then Gronk arm Hernandez happened. We have had some terrible luck with BP trades lately (Koji aside). That said, I don't think we should stop trying. Eventually we'll have to hit on one or 2.
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Post by Sox Mojo Rising on Nov 13, 2015 11:57:54 GMT -5
The Reds are going to want a King's ransom for Chapman... Understandably. If Dave is going to trade away a package of prospects, I'd rather it be for Ken Giles, who is controlled through 2020. Then sign Sipp and O'Day. Wa-lah... bullpen is playoff caliber.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2015 13:00:40 GMT -5
Who they want and what they get are different stories and sure you'd think they need better than a first rd pick in return but what that is exactly is debatable. This is also a team with Votto under a big contract, I'm not sure they want a long term rebuild as much as they want a retooling.
Chapman is more of a asset swap than a rebuild type trade guy. It's not like they are getting a multiple A prospect haul here.
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Post by sibbysisti on Nov 13, 2015 13:05:26 GMT -5
The Reds are going to want a King's ransom for Chapman... Understandably. If Dave is going to trade away a package of prospects, I'd rather it be for Ken Giles, who is controlled through 2020. Then sign Sipp and O'Day. Wa-lah... bullpen is playoff caliber. I can see them accepting a top ten rated prospect for one year of control of Chapman, good as he is. Doubt they'd get a "king's ransom" in the market.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 13, 2015 14:53:30 GMT -5
Can we please NOT trade for Aroldis Chapman? The price would be astronomical. In addition, how have relief pitchers trades worked out for the Sox in past years? (Anderson/Bagwell, Gagne/Murphy, Bailey/Reddick, Melancon/Lowrie) Sorry bud but this is just silly logic. I'll try to ignore the fact that we do not know the cost and that no matter what we want to say it will be or should be we still don't know it. Go back to the discussion about trading for j Upton from Arizona. He went for way less than everyone here was saying it would take. The biggest issue you have is saying don't trade for relievers because trades other people made in the past didn't work. As if the address of Fenway Park has something to do with failed trades. People used to say Belechick couldn't draft tight ends and that he shouldn't waste draft picks there because Graham and Watson were not close to what people expected. Then Gronk arm Hernandez happened.The difference is that it's actually possible to do well by drafting tight ends in the NFL, whereas trading for big-name relievers ends of being a disaster like 98% of the time. It's not that the Red Sox have a bad history there, it's that EVERYBODY has a bad history there.
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 14, 2015 5:10:17 GMT -5
I hope DD signs one more reliever. Doesn't have to be 'O Day, but just someone with a track record of solid pitching, e.g. Tony Sipp, Shawn Kelley or Ryan Webb.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 14, 2015 5:59:57 GMT -5
An educated guess on BA's current top 10 Red Sox from SP Top 10:
What's known, Speier has Margot at #7 and SAL top prospects had Guerra ahead of Devers. We also saw positive tweets on Espinoza and Kopech.
Moncada Margot Espinoza Guerra Devers Benintendi Kopech Travis Marrero
(I think Johnson is ineligible)
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 14, 2015 6:33:43 GMT -5
I hope DD signs one more reliever. Doesn't have to be 'O Day, but just someone with a track record of solid pitching, e.g. Tony Sipp, Shawn Kelley or Ryan Webb. With Barnes and Kelly likely to be in the pen along with Koji & Tazawa, a power lefty would fill the bill. On the other hand, if we purchase an ace, Miley or Buccholz could be traded for a very good one.
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Post by mannofsteele on Nov 14, 2015 6:44:04 GMT -5
There has to be an improvement from the lefties side of things. With Tazawa, Uehara and now Kimbrel you have quality from the 7th to the 9th inning. I guess theoretically it could be a right handed reliever with success at getting lefties out. But, an upgrade over Layne specifically is needed.
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Post by jmei on Nov 14, 2015 9:44:51 GMT -5
There's no Miller-esque standout lefty reliever on the free agent market, but there are a bunch of guys who have been or could be setup-level guys. Tony Sipp, Antonio Bastardo, Oliver Perez, etc.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 14, 2015 9:54:18 GMT -5
I'd like the Sox to get Sipp. If we can get two lefties fine, but Sipp seems like the best FA.
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Post by xanderdu on Nov 14, 2015 10:50:07 GMT -5
I might be the only one tooting this horn, but I'm still of the belief that Joe Kelly is a reliever. You're not alone. I believe he is our missing high leverage 7th and 8th guy. If they deployed Kelly that way, Kimbrel allows them to use Koji in high leverage situations early in the game, and still have Tazawa and Kelly for the 7th and 8th. I like the Kimbrel deal more after having slept on it.
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Post by goldenmonkey34 on Nov 14, 2015 11:17:08 GMT -5
I would like to see one more above avergae reliever with a proven track record to really put our bullpen over the top. In todays game having a quality bullpen is a necessity for a WS, not a luxury. More specifically I would like to see O'Day or Sipp. I like O'Day because of his well proven track record compared to Sipp's, although Sipp being a lefty may have more value to us and fit our needs better. Hell, lets just get both
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,926
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 14, 2015 11:26:46 GMT -5
An educated guess on BA's current top 10 Red Sox from SP Top 10: What's known, Speier has Margot at #7 and SAL top prospects had Guerra ahead of Devers. We also saw positive tweets on Espinoza and Kopech. Moncada Margot Espinoza Guerra Devers Benintendi Kopech Travis Marrero (I think Johnson is ineligible) Why would Johnson be ineligible? He's pitched one game in MLB. And had he spent too many days on the roster to maintain his rookie status (which he didn't), BA ignores that.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,299
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Post by radiohix on Nov 14, 2015 11:56:54 GMT -5
I would like to see one more above avergae reliever with a proven track record to really put our bullpen over the top. In todays game having a quality bullpen is a necessity for a WS, not a luxury. More specifically I would like to see O'Day or Sipp. I like O'Day because of his well proven track record compared to Sipp's, although Sipp being a lefty may have more value to us and fit our needs better. Hell, lets just get both I disagree with this: We're in a division where basically all our opponents best hitters swing from the right side. I'll take O'Day over Sipp anyday.
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Post by mattpicard on Nov 14, 2015 12:06:49 GMT -5
Sipp is also 32, lost 1.5 MPH off his fastball for a career low 90.9 in 2015, and for his career has been an incredibly mediocre pitcher until these last two seasons, where he's suddenly cut his HR/9 and BB/9 rates. I'd honestly opt to use Layne as a LOOGY (he's pretty damn good if he's not allowed to face RHB's -- leftie's have OPS'd ~.415 off him these last two seasons) and Robbie Ross as a tolerable middle reliever over signing Sipp.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Nov 14, 2015 13:11:54 GMT -5
Sipp is also 32, lost 1.5 MPH off his fastball for a career low 90.9 in 2015, and for his career has been an incredibly mediocre pitcher until these last two seasons, where he's suddenly cut his HR/9 and BB/9 rates. I'd honestly opt to use Layne as a LOOGY (he's pretty damn good if he's not allowed to face RHB's -- leftie's have OPS'd ~.415 off him these last two seasons) and Robbie Ross as a tolerable middle reliever over signing Sipp. Agreed. I have far less worries with the RP's currently on our roster than I do with Farrell's bullpen management. He needs to play the matchups more in the middle innings rather than trying to squeeze an inning out of a reliever. However, if the Yanks are indeed willing to listen on Miller, I would at the very least explore the possibility of acquiring him with some of our reduntant MLB talent (no prospects in the deal).
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 15, 2015 0:31:10 GMT -5
The difference is that it's actually possible to do well by drafting tight ends in the NFL, whereas trading for big-name relievers ends of being a disaster like 98% of the time. It's not that the Red Sox have a bad history there, it's that EVERYBODY has a bad history there. *sigh*
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Post by larrycook on Nov 15, 2015 0:35:27 GMT -5
Should dombrowski take a chance on madsen, the royals free agent reliever?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 15, 2015 0:49:21 GMT -5
The difference is that it's actually possible to do well by drafting tight ends in the NFL, whereas trading for big-name relievers ends of being a disaster like 98% of the time. It's not that the Red Sox have a bad history there, it's that EVERYBODY has a bad history there. *sigh* This is, of course, where volatility rears its ugly head. There's so much variation in year-to-year performance from relievers that hooking your star to any given one can be, and often is, disastrous. They can easily be retro-fitted onto failed starters which is certainly less costly, at least before the supernova (see Davis, Wade). After that you'll pay through the nose. Trading good prospects and paying big money is a very iffy proposition. It could lead to more desperate measures later on, as others have pointed out. Oh well.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 15, 2015 1:14:22 GMT -5
This is, of course, where volatility rears its ugly head. There's so much variation in year-to-year performance from relievers that hooking your star to any given one can be, and often is, disastrous. They can easily be retro-fitted onto failed starters which is certainly less costly, at least before the supernova (see Davis, Wade). After that you'll pay through the nose. Trading good prospects and paying big money is a very iffy proposition. It could lead to more desperate measures later on, as others have pointed out. Oh well. But there is also that handful of relievers/closers that have shown year to year consistency and dominance. Kimbrel is one of those handful of guys. There is no reason to believe that his numbers should be all that different. He'll play half his games in a slightly better hitters park and a division that where it stands now is rough guess maybe a little better than where he's pitched before. That being said, they're obviously banking on getting 2-3 years of the 2011-2014 Kimbrel than the 2015 one, though most of last year's struggles look like they were due to a massive bump in HR/9 after consistently better results the rest of his career. If the Sox were to trade for a cost controlled starter, the price appears like it would have been significantly steeper, potentially the Kimbrel package and another of the Sox's top 5 prospects. If that was the case, I'd much prefer the deal for Kimbrel then sign either Price or Greinke
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 15, 2015 8:49:48 GMT -5
I hope DD signs one more reliever. Doesn't have to be 'O Day, but just someone with a track record of solid pitching, e.g. Tony Sipp, Shawn Kelley or Ryan Webb. With Barnes and Kelly likely to be in the pen along with Koji & Tazawa, a power lefty would fill the bill. On the other hand, if we purchase an ace, Miley or Buccholz could be traded for a very good one. Rich Hill is available.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Nov 15, 2015 9:25:19 GMT -5
Koji career OPS splits:
vs RHB: .575 vs LHB: .564
You don't need to throw with your left hand to get left-handed batters out.
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Post by jmei on Nov 15, 2015 10:18:09 GMT -5
Koji career OPS splits: vs RHB: .575 vs LHB: .564 You don't need to throw with your left hand to get left-handed batters out. Tazawa has also always been very good against LHH, as has Varvaro. Combine that with Layne as a LOOGY and Ross as a second lefty (albeit one with minimal splits), and I don't think they necessarily have to get another lefty reliever. I also still have some hope for Escobar, who is out of options.
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