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6/14-6/16 Red Sox vs. Baltimore Series Thead
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Post by thursty on Jun 16, 2016 19:45:12 GMT -5
No concern - Rodriguez is still in spring training.
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Post by bosox89 on Jun 16, 2016 19:50:07 GMT -5
Dealing Davey looms. Pretty scared about that.
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bosox
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Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Jun 16, 2016 19:58:24 GMT -5
Dealing Davey looms. Pretty scared about that. Price, Wright and Porcello is not enough. They need to add a solid reliable starter. It is a quandary when it's going to cost prospects.
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Post by bosox81 on Jun 16, 2016 20:01:15 GMT -5
Dealing Davey looms. Pretty scared about that. Price, Wright and Porcello is not enough. They need to add a solid reliable starter. It is a quandary when it's going to cost prospects. It would be a mistake. The price of starting pitching is going to be through the roof with very little available. I know many want to win this year because this is Papi's last. But that's a short sighted move for the organization.
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bosox
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Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Jun 16, 2016 20:02:00 GMT -5
I'm guessing ERod down and Elias up after the game. Clay to get Erod's next start.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 16, 2016 20:06:12 GMT -5
Price, Wright and Porcello is not enough. They need to add a solid reliable starter. It is a quandary when it's going to cost prospects. It would be a mistake. The price of starting pitching is going to be through the roof with very little available. I know many want to win this year because this is Papi's last. But that's a short sighted move for the organization. There is some great youth on the club but this is also very much a win now team.
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Post by bosox81 on Jun 16, 2016 20:10:51 GMT -5
It would be a mistake. The price of starting pitching is going to be through the roof with very little available. I know many want to win this year because this is Papi's last. But that's a short sighted move for the organization. There is some great youth on the club but this is also very much a win now team. Because of who else except Big Papi and a couple of relievers? The core of the future is still either in their mid-20s or early 20s.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 16, 2016 20:15:01 GMT -5
There is some great youth on the club but this is also very much a win now team. Because of who else except Big Papi and a couple of relievers? The core of the future is still either in their mid-20s or early 20s. Pedroia, Wright, and to a certain degree Hanley. No guarantee Dustin pr Wright have years this good again. No guarantee that ypu have an offense like this next year either. Guys slump, get hurt, etc. If on July 29 or so they really think they can make a WS run, this ownership group will go for it. John Hnery ain't getting any younger either, btw.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 16, 2016 20:19:00 GMT -5
There is some great youth on the club but this is also very much a win now team. Because of who else except Big Papi and a couple of relievers? The core of the future is still either in their mid-20s or early 20s. But we don't have any starting pitching in the system that is there for the near term. It has to come from somewhere or it will continue to be a problem, as it has been for a couple of years now. A trade has to be considered not just for this year, but for the future also.
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Post by bosox89 on Jun 16, 2016 20:22:15 GMT -5
Wilson has a horseshoe up his keister tonight
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Jun 16, 2016 20:24:04 GMT -5
Wilson has a horseshoe up his keister tonight Would that make it a horse's axx.
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Post by jmei on Jun 16, 2016 20:26:11 GMT -5
Because of who else except Big Papi and a couple of relievers? The core of the future is still either in their mid-20s or early 20s. But we don't have any starting pitching in the system that is there for the near term. It has to come from somewhere or it will continue to be a problem, as it has been for a couple of years now. A trade has to be considered not just for this year, but for the future also. They have not been at all useful (yet) this season, but, by next spring, Owens, Johnson and Elias could all be at least adequate back-end starters, and Rodriguez could at least be a mid-rotation starter.
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Post by bosox81 on Jun 16, 2016 20:30:21 GMT -5
Because of who else except Big Papi and a couple of relievers? The core of the future is still either in their mid-20s or early 20s. Pedroia, Wright, and to a certain degree Hanley. No guarantee Dustin pr Wright have years this good again. No guarantee that ypu have an offense like this next year either. Guys slump, get hurt, etc. If on July 29 or so they really think they can make a WS run, this ownership group will go for it. John Hnery ain't getting any younger either, btw. And there's no guarantee that Dustin and Wright will continue being this good the rest of the season either. Guys slump and guys get hot. It's the nature of the game. But to throw away future wins because an owner is getting old or to cater to a retiring superstar, as much as we love Papi, is not a smart move.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 16, 2016 20:37:13 GMT -5
But we don't have any starting pitching in the system that is there for the near term. It has to come from somewhere or it will continue to be a problem, as it has been for a couple of years now. A trade has to be considered not just for this year, but for the future also. They have not been at all useful (yet) this season, but, by next spring, Owens, Johnson and Elias could all be at least adequate back-end starters, and Rodriguez could at least be a mid-rotation starter. I am hopeful of that, but alot would seem to have to go right for the best case scenario.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 16, 2016 20:42:59 GMT -5
Pedroia, Wright, and to a certain degree Hanley. No guarantee Dustin pr Wright have years this good again. No guarantee that ypu have an offense like this next year either. Guys slump, get hurt, etc. If on July 29 or so they really think they can make a WS run, this ownership group will go for it. John Hnery ain't getting any younger either, btw. And there's no guarantee that Dustin and Wright will continue being this good the rest of the season either. Guys slump and guys get hot. It's the nature of the game. But to throw away future wins because an owner is getting old or to cater to a retiring superstar, as much as we love Papi, is not a smart move. I agree with that, but I also remember Theo talking about his, JH, Werner and, at the time, Lucchino's philosophy in 2011, saying, essentially, if you believe you have a legit chance to get to the World Seies at the deadline you go for it every time. Not sure if that philosophy has changed, but my guess is Dombrowski is not the the kind of guy you bring in to hold your powder. I think they would trade two of the top 4 if they legitimately thought that would get them what they need to get there. That has to be a pretty clear eyed evaluation on July 30 or so - no self-delusion, because they are all aware of what they'd be trading in terms of potential, and how this could come back to bite them.
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Post by kevfc89 on Jun 16, 2016 20:55:14 GMT -5
so, Clay looked really good
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Post by kevfc89 on Jun 16, 2016 20:58:01 GMT -5
And there's no guarantee that Dustin and Wright will continue being this good the rest of the season either. Guys slump and guys get hot. It's the nature of the game. But to throw away future wins because an owner is getting old or to cater to a retiring superstar, as much as we love Papi, is not a smart move. I agree with that, but I also remember Theo talking about his, JH, Werner and, at the time, Lucchino's philosophy in 2011, saying, essentially, if you believe you have a legit chance to get to the World Seies at the deadline you go for it every time. Not sure if that philosophy has changed, but my guess is Dombrowski is not the the kind of guy you bring in to hold your powder. I think they would trade two of the top 4 if they legitimately thought that would get them what they need to get there. That has to be a pretty clear eyed evaluation on July 30 or so - no self-delusion, because they are all aware of what they'd be trading in terms of potential, and how this could come back to bite them. I doubt that's Theo's philosophy, at least anymore. He's been nothing but extremely protective of his best prospects since going to Chicago, and last year didn't do much at the deadline despite having a good team. I guess we'll see what they do at this year's deadline, but I don't think we'll see Theo sacrifice his farm system much.
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Post by malynn19 on Jun 16, 2016 21:01:06 GMT -5
They are fine with everybody else, buy they can't close out versus Toronto and are gutless vs Baltimore. Only thing I hate more than the MFY is Showwalter. He told his pitcher, to make it uncomfortable for Mookie when he threw at him and Mookie has not hit a HR since.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jun 16, 2016 21:12:23 GMT -5
Nah, tonight isn't all that big. When you're in the situation the Sox (and the O's) are now, the big thing in a series like this is, just don't get swept and create a significant shift in the standings. Both teams have accomplished that, so tonight's game simply determines who is in first place tomorrow -- which may change the day after that. Yes, in the big picture wins in April or June count as much as wins in September. But when you are in the middle of competition and your situation is much more clear than it was earlier in the season, individual games count so much more in one's consciousness. They just do. It's the same phenomenon that occurs in miniature in individual games, when performance in the late innings seems to mean so much more than performance (or lack of it) earlier in the game, IF the game is at all competitive. The Sox scored early and stayed in front last night and everyone goes ho hum. If the O's had gotten their 4 runs early and the Sox had scored their 6 in the 7th and 8th rather than the 2nd and 3rd, everyone would be much more excited. It's the way human nature works. I disagree. Sure it doesn't make or break the season, but winning or losing tonight is a swing of two games in the standings. That's all in one game, it's pretty huge. Well then, I guess you're distraught by tonight's exceedingly eventful outcome. But at least you won't want to be trading prospects away at the deadline. Since we lost this game, what's the use?Seriously though, I don't see that there is a compelling case developing to trade for pitching at the deadline, unless Price and Porcello pitch better more consistently. They are both going to be in the rotation barring injury, and if they can't carry the front/middle of the staff there isn't any pitching that we'd get at the deadline that would make up for that. If the pitching generally isn't quite good enough, that's a different problem from having one egregious hole that you can fill with the right player.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 16, 2016 21:27:46 GMT -5
We can't gut the farm for this team. Sorry. Showalter owns Farrell, we've known that for a while.
June is a tough month but the schedule gets easier the rest of the way other than a long road trip in August.
We have played the Jays and O's a ton already. Only 1 GB. This mat be a wild card team but that would honestly be fine with me if they kept the prospects.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2016 21:38:28 GMT -5
At this point it's trading measles for mumps, but it's obvious E-Rod was brought back up to Boston too soon.
He's going to need more time. Until he gets his legs underneath him, it might make sense to let him get his innings in at Pawtucket. They have nothing else to do with Buchholz so they might as well re-insert him in the rotation.
Maybe he'll respond to being yanked from the rotation and actually pitch with some urgency.
If not, they'd be better off with Buchholz being the one who gets pounded every 5th day, with E-Rod getting his innings at AAA while the Sox control his service time. And at some point, when E-Rod starts looking more like himself, then you bring him back.
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Post by zimmerdown on Jun 16, 2016 21:38:41 GMT -5
Yeah, this was all on Farrell.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 16, 2016 21:42:22 GMT -5
I agree with that, but I also remember Theo talking about his, JH, Werner and, at the time, Lucchino's philosophy in 2011, saying, essentially, if you believe you have a legit chance to get to the World Seies at the deadline you go for it every time. Not sure if that philosophy has changed, but my guess is Dombrowski is not the the kind of guy you bring in to hold your powder. I think they would trade two of the top 4 if they legitimately thought that would get them what they need to get there. That has to be a pretty clear eyed evaluation on July 30 or so - no self-delusion, because they are all aware of what they'd be trading in terms of potential, and how this could come back to bite them. I doubt that's Theo's philosophy, at least anymore. He's been nothing but extremely protective of his best prospects since going to Chicago, and last year didn't do much at the deadline despite having a good team. I guess we'll see what they do at this year's deadline, but I don't think we'll see Theo sacrifice his farm system much. On July 31, 2015 the Cubs were 10.5 games out of first. In any clear-eyed decision making world that is not the time to go for it. However we have seen this strategy employed by other GMs who were close, including the arch prospect collector himself, Billy Beane in 2014 dealing for Lester and Samardjiza and Hamel right near the deadline with a 66 and 41 record. He knew he did not have the starting pitching to sustain the surprising early run but he believed if he could get it he'd have a chance to win it all. So he went for it and traded his highly regarded #1 prospect Addison Russell and one of his hottest players, Yoenis Cespedes. It didn't work out then, but it shows that someone even with the prospect savvy of Billy Beane was willing to deal big becuase he was in first and was just a piece or two away from being able to separate himself from the pack and make a run right into the world series. It didn't work out that way, but the same type of thinking in 04 got Nomar on a plane to Chicago. None of these move are ever guaranteed, and sometimes the best ones are the moves you never make, but Dave Dombrowski is being paid primarily to use this massive payroll and make the hard decisions - including sitting multimillion dollar players - to win the world series. If he and the collective brain trust think that goal can become a high probability outcome based on their position and attainable needs on July 31, and a move wouldn't mortage the entire future (i.e maybe only involving moving two of Benintendii, Moncada, Espinosa or Devers), yeah, I think he'll go all in, especially if it only costs A ball guys like Devers and Espinosa who have so much development that the risk is substantially mitigated. Just my opinion. But it'll be moot unless this team can learn to win series against Baltimore and Toronto, or unless those teams somehow crumble by July 31. Barring either or both of those events occurring, trading top prospect likely won't be a concern until the winter as the Sox would then be a 3rd place team on the 31st and likely facing an uphill climb just to try to get one of the wild card spots. That's not a point you go all in. It's just the beginning to the end of yet another season missing the playoffs.
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Post by ikonos on Jun 16, 2016 23:25:06 GMT -5
When your team under perform three years in a row just assume the primary goal management sets to the persons in charge is to get back to playing meaningful games and get the buzz back. Kimbrel trade is the first salvo. As pitching is its primary weakness, they will assuredly try to improve it to get to the top of the division. You want to think of the future but you also don't want to ignore present. Just hope they make rational trades.
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Post by jmei on Jun 17, 2016 10:05:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure 2014 Billy Beane should be the model you want your front office to follow. Besides, other than the fact that they both made trades at the deadline, what he did that year has very little in common with what Epstein did in 2004. Beane traded his best prospects for star players, which is what you seem to suggest this year's team should do. Epstein acquired low-key role players that filled holes without materially hurting his farm system.
This year's team has an excellent core of position players, and the real issue on the pitching front is not the front-end guys (having Price and Wright as your two best starters and Kimbrel and Tazawa as your two best relievers is more than adequate). What they need is depth and complementary guys-- maybe another mid/back-end starter, maybe another trustworthy reliever, maybe a LF or corner infielder. The idea that you need to go "all in" is cheesy machismo nonsense.
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