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Red Sox acquire LHP Drew Pomeranz for RHP Anderson Espinoza
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 16, 2016 19:28:53 GMT -5
People may not be a proponent of the Pomeranz/Espinoza deal but that doesn't mean that they are "haters" of Pomeranz. That's your perception. Yesterday he totally impacted that game for the good. The bullpen didn't have much work to do. Yesterday Pomeranz was a top-flight pitcher. If we see this guy a lot more often going forward, great! My perception is that some people appear to be very down on him and many of those are people who hated the deal because of AE. I'm speaking in generalities. This is the second time I've done that and both times you took it to heart as If I made the claim about you or that everyone who thought x believed y and both times that was wrong. That speaks more about your perception then it does mine. It appears you are trying to argue for it's own sake, and I'm not taking the bait. Well, how about this - try not quoting me and I won't take what you're saying to refer to me personally.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 17, 2016 7:39:46 GMT -5
My perception is that some people appear to be very down on him and many of those are people who hated the deal because of AE. I'm speaking in generalities. This is the second time I've done that and both times you took it to heart as If I made the claim about you or that everyone who thought x believed y and both times that was wrong. That speaks more about your perception then it does mine. It appears you are trying to argue for it's own sake, and I'm not taking the bait. I've noticed the same. I'll wait until I see the rest of the season before determining what kind of pitcher he might be for Red Sox, not start jumping on him after a few starts like a lot of people did. Most pitchers just don't come to Boston and immediately pitch great. Well said. Lots of difference from the sd crowd and the sox fans. nl versus al. fenway park vs Petco park. May not know the outcome of this trade for 2 or 3 years. AE could be prospect to suspect. Or prospect to all star. Will drew survive in boston.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Aug 17, 2016 7:45:27 GMT -5
I haven't seen that much of Pomeranz yet but the initial impression is strongly of Bruce Hurst. Which is sorta odd since Hurst left Boston to go to the Padres, and Pomeranz went in the opposite direction.
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Post by 1mpaz10 on Aug 17, 2016 9:55:19 GMT -5
My perception is that some people appear to be very down on him and many of those are people who hated the deal because of AE. I'm speaking in generalities. This is the second time I've done that and both times you took it to heart as If I made the claim about you or that everyone who thought x believed y and both times that was wrong. That speaks more about your perception then it does mine. It appears you are trying to argue for it's own sake, and I'm not taking the bait. I've noticed the same. I'll wait until I see the rest of the season before determining what kind of pitcher he might be for Red Sox, not start jumping on him after a few starts like a lot of people did. Most pitchers just don't come to Boston and immediately pitch great. Well said. David Price for example?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 17, 2016 10:08:55 GMT -5
I haven't seen that much of Pomeranz yet but the initial impression is strongly of Bruce Hurst. Which is sorta odd since Hurst left Boston to go to the Padres, and Pomeranz went in the opposite direction. Or a younger, controllable Rich Hill.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 23, 2016 8:20:26 GMT -5
They better be expecting more than just some solid innings from the guy. With all of the way-better pitchers that were traded at the deadline, what would you have done differently? Keep Buchholz in the rotation and then barely miss the playoffs? I personally wanted Rich Hill, but he hasn't pitched in a month so I was wrong there. Honestly, I wouldn't have done anything if the best I could get was a 3/4 starter for a top 15 prospect. Remember, this is all predicated on the fictional belief that they expected Pomeranz to be a 3/4 starter when they traded for him. I said all along that a trade for a starter was not necessary because this team was only going to get into the playoffs with internal improvement. They could have added anyone in the game and if Price, ERod and Buchholz don't pitch better if won't matter. Let's be real. This team is pitching great but how much of an impact has Pomeranz had on that? The major impacts have come from internal improvements and the minor trades. Price, Rodriguez and Buchholz have made major strides. Leon and Benintendi have had major impacts on the lineup. Big trades rarely have big impacts midsession. The nice thing about Pomeranz is he's not a rental and Espinoza is a single A pitcher so I'm not upset about the trade but I certainly hope the Red Sox expect more of him than he's giving them or they were dumb to make that deal.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 23, 2016 8:41:05 GMT -5
With all of the way-better pitchers that were traded at the deadline, what would you have done differently? Keep Buchholz in the rotation and then barely miss the playoffs? I personally wanted Rich Hill, but he hasn't pitched in a month so I was wrong there. Honestly, I wouldn't have done anything if the best I could get was a 3/4 starter for a top 15 prospect. Remember, this is all predicated on the fictional belief that they expected Pomeranz to be a 3/4 starter when they traded for him. I said all along that a trade for a starter was not necessary because this team was only going to get into the playoffs with internal improvement. They could have added anyone in the game and if Price, ERod and Buchholz don't pitch better if won't matter. Let's be real. This team is pitching great but how much of an impact has Pomeranz had on that? The major impacts have come from internal improvements and the minor trades. Price, Rodriguez and Buchholz have made major strides. Leon and Benintendi have had major impacts on the lineup. Big trades rarely have big impacts midsession. The nice thing about Pomeranz is he's not a rental and Espinoza is a single A pitcher so I'm not upset about the trade but I certainly hope the Red Sox expect more of him than he's giving them or they were dumb to make that deal. If they didn't trade for Pomeranz, either Owens, Elias or O'Sullivan would have had 3-4 more starts. The difference between those three and Pomeranz is pretty huge. And now we're set next year so no more stupid trades or free agent signings on the starting pitching front.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 23, 2016 8:50:50 GMT -5
You're acting like I was against he trade. I'm not, I just hope they expect more considering what they gave up.
What do you mean by no more stupid trades? Are you calling the Pomeranz trade stupid?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 23, 2016 9:06:43 GMT -5
I think he meant trades like Kimbrel where you have to overpay to get what you need. Since we don't NEED any SP, all we have to do is overpay for EE.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Aug 23, 2016 9:17:21 GMT -5
You're acting like I was against he trade. I'm not, I just hope they expect more considering what they gave up. What do you mean by no more stupid trades? Are you calling the Pomeranz trade stupid? What does I just hope they expect more actually mean? Do you know what the Sox expectations are? then how can you hope that they expect more? I think alot of the perception of him is based on his initial impression (his first 2 out of 2 starts sucked), the loss of AE and/or a lack of IP/Start by Pomeranz. His first start w/ the team was after not pitching for 13 days AND he was traded to another team. I for one will give that a pass but that is just me. Since that time his ERA is 3.31. Do you think the Sox would take that? or if that what their expectations are? I'm sure they believe they acquired a very good pitcher and since the initial impression he's been that. His IP since his first start is 5.9 IP per outing yet only 88.5 pitches. Perhaps they are monitoring his pitches because he's in new territory. The trade was made not only for this year but the next 2 where we know the window is wide open.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 23, 2016 10:19:44 GMT -5
Anyone else noticing Espinoza's numbers in SD's low-A tenure. 6 games started 0-3 5.79 ERA, 6.9 SO per 9 Overall, between 2 low-a seasons he's carrying 4.82 ERA. This is not exactly a SSS. I know he's young and all, just seems to have a LONG way to go. Dominated DSL/GCL & hits a wall in low-a.
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Post by kman22 on Aug 23, 2016 10:37:57 GMT -5
Anyone else noticing Espinoza's numbers in SD's low-A tenure. 6 games started 0-3 5.79 ERA, 6.9 SO per 9 Overall, between 2 low-a seasons he's carrying 4.82 ERA. This is not exactly a SSS. I know he's young and all, just seems to have a LONG way to go. Dominated DSL/GCL & hits a wall in low-a. What does his IP count look like vs. his personal highs?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 23, 2016 10:47:03 GMT -5
He pitched a total of 58 innings last year. He's up to 99 this year. Still, as the second coming, even his 1st 58 IP this year have not been that good. Again, he may or may not get a pass due to his age.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 23, 2016 11:44:20 GMT -5
I put very little stock into Espinoza's results this year. He was the youngest pitcher in his league, and his stuff is future #1 quality. A middling year is A-ball at 18 is completely meaningless in terms of his long-term value, provided there's no injury issue or some catastrophic loss of stuff.
On the other hand, Pomeranz has pitched reasonably well, particularly after his long lay-off. He's not reproducing his SD performance, but I don't think that's remotely unexpected. He has been #3 quality, and I agree 100% that if the Sox traded Espinoza for a pitcher they thought would be a 3, it was pretty dumb. But I think they expect Pomeranz to settle in as a controllable 2 (roughly akin to what Porcello has done), and I'm beginning to suspect that they may be right.
All in all, given Espinoza's distance from MLB, I think this was a reasonable trade. Irrespective of the outcomes, I mean. Long-term, the Sox got a lot more performance certainty against a minor but real risk of huge upside loss. All things as they are, it's not a bad deal. If Pomeranz has any degree of success (I envision Jimmy Key for NY mid-90s), he'll preserve (or even build) his value, and he can either be extended (probably relatively cheaply given his short track record), or traded at a deadline if Kopech is beating down the door. The move gives them rotation certainty in the offseason. While I still believe that there were other viable options, I think this trade was made almost wholly on future considerations, and as much as I hate losing Espinoza, I understand and support the apparent rationale that went into the trade.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 23, 2016 14:06:48 GMT -5
...On the other hand, Pomeranz has pitched reasonably well, particularly after his long lay-off. He's not reproducing his SD performance, but I don't think that's remotely unexpected. He has been #3 quality, and I agree 100% that if the Sox traded Espinoza for a pitcher they thought would be a 3, it was pretty dumb. But I think they expect Pomeranz to settle in as a controllable 2 (roughly akin to what Porcello has done), and I'm beginning to suspect that they may be right... Actually, he's doing just that in August. We all need to get up to speed, here. This is compiled from BR (click to enlarge):
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Post by deepjohn on Aug 23, 2016 14:49:49 GMT -5
...On the other hand, Pomeranz has pitched reasonably well, particularly after his long lay-off. He's not reproducing his SD performance, but I don't think that's remotely unexpected. He has been #3 quality, and I agree 100% that if the Sox traded Espinoza for a pitcher they thought would be a 3, it was pretty dumb. But I think they expect Pomeranz to settle in as a controllable 2 (roughly akin to what Porcello has done), and I'm beginning to suspect that they may be right... Actually, he's doing just that in August. We all need to get up to speed, here. This is compiled from BR (click to enlarge): Yeah, I think throwing out a few assumed outliers, Pomeranz has been giving up the least hard contact, although everyone but Price has been doing just about as well. And even Price has been better in his last two starts, helped by Benny's catch of a lifetime. Pomeranz was impressive avoiding hard contact against Cleveland and Detroit. Those were both 3-2 wins for the Red Sox that came at crucial time when facing likely post-season rivals in their home fields. Pomeranz' K and BB rates I think need a larger sample size to normalize to his projection (27%-9%) with his new cutter.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 23, 2016 15:48:28 GMT -5
...On the other hand, Pomeranz has pitched reasonably well, particularly after his long lay-off. He's not reproducing his SD performance, but I don't think that's remotely unexpected. He has been #3 quality, and I agree 100% that if the Sox traded Espinoza for a pitcher they thought would be a 3, it was pretty dumb. But I think they expect Pomeranz to settle in as a controllable 2 (roughly akin to what Porcello has done), and I'm beginning to suspect that they may be right... Actually, he's doing just that in August. We all need to get up to speed, here. This is compiled from BR (click to enlarge): You don't consider that a selective small sample? I'm well aware that he's been significantly better this month, otherwise his ERA would still be 7 and not 4. Hence, my saying "they expect...and I'm beginning to suspect they might be right." But a 4-start stretch hardly establishes a baseline. If he gets through the end of the year pitching like he has, I'm more inclined to view his first few Sox starts as a blip. I tend to think they were, but I'm also incredulous that he's a true-talent ace in the AL.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 24, 2016 7:28:08 GMT -5
You're acting like I was against he trade. I'm not, I just hope they expect more considering what they gave up. What do you mean by no more stupid trades? Are you calling the Pomeranz trade stupid? What does I just hope they expect more actually mean? Do you know what the Sox expectations are? then how can you hope that they expect more? I think alot of the perception of him is based on his initial impression (his first 2 out of 2 starts sucked), the loss of AE and/or a lack of IP/Start by Pomeranz. His first start w/ the team was after not pitching for 13 days AND he was traded to another team. I for one will give that a pass but that is just me. Since that time his ERA is 3.31. Do you think the Sox would take that? or if that what their expectations are? I'm sure they believe they acquired a very good pitcher and since the initial impression he's been that. His IP since his first start is 5.9 IP per outing yet only 88.5 pitches. Perhaps they are monitoring his pitches because he's in new territory. The trade was made not only for this year but the next 2 where we know the window is wide open. My Lord people here either can't read or refuse to. I don't know what they think and that's not relevant to a damn thing I wrote. Someone said they expect Pomeranz to be a solid 3/4 starter and all I said is I hope the Red Sox expect more than THAT out of him. Simple end of story.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 24, 2016 7:35:16 GMT -5
...On the other hand, Pomeranz has pitched reasonably well, particularly after his long lay-off. He's not reproducing his SD performance, but I don't think that's remotely unexpected. He has been #3 quality, and I agree 100% that if the Sox traded Espinoza for a pitcher they thought would be a 3, it was pretty dumb. But I think they expect Pomeranz to settle in as a controllable 2 (roughly akin to what Porcello has done), and I'm beginning to suspect that they may be right... Actually, he's doing just that in August. We all need to get up to speed, here. This is compiled from BR (click to enlarge): His last couple starts have been encouraging. Was nice he was on such a low pitch count when the rain came. We know the guy can pitch. How good of a pitcher he is will come down to 2 things in my opinion: 1. Health - as always this is most important but his spotty history makes it a tad bit more of a concern with him. 2. How deep he can go into games - if he's a guy that can't get into the 7th and 8th inning somewhat regularly then that's going to be a big problem in the AL East.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 24, 2016 7:36:45 GMT -5
I think he meant trades like Kimbrel where you have to overpay to get what you need. Since we don't NEED any SP, all we have to do is overpay for EE. No Edwin. Bad signing. This team won't need him next year. That money will be better spent on the bullpen.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 24, 2016 7:47:37 GMT -5
What does I just hope they expect more actually mean? Do you know what the Sox expectations are? then how can you hope that they expect more? I think alot of the perception of him is based on his initial impression (his first 2 out of 2 starts sucked), the loss of AE and/or a lack of IP/Start by Pomeranz. His first start w/ the team was after not pitching for 13 days AND he was traded to another team. I for one will give that a pass but that is just me. Since that time his ERA is 3.31. Do you think the Sox would take that? or if that what their expectations are? I'm sure they believe they acquired a very good pitcher and since the initial impression he's been that. His IP since his first start is 5.9 IP per outing yet only 88.5 pitches. Perhaps they are monitoring his pitches because he's in new territory. The trade was made not only for this year but the next 2 where we know the window is wide open. My Lord people here either can't read or refuse to. I don't know what they think and that's not relevant to a damn thing I wrote. Someone said they expect Pomeranz to be a solid 3/4 starter and all I said is I hope the Red Sox expect more than THAT out of him. Simple end of story. But why? That's unrealistic and a setup for automatic failure. He has the upside for more than a 3/4. But the trade was made because it was the most realistic way to improve the rotation for this year and the next two for really cheap salaries without giving up 5 prospects and gutting the farm system. Not because they hope they got the finished ceiling of Espinoza.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 24, 2016 7:51:19 GMT -5
Because I'm not in the habit of trading a top 15 prospect in the game for mid/back rotation starter. There are a lot of trades that improve teams you don't make.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 24, 2016 7:52:00 GMT -5
Because I'm not in the habit of trading a top 15 prospect in the game for mid/back rotation starter. There are a lot of trades that improve teams you don't make. But you shouldn't pay attention to pitching prospects before they reach AA. I read that somewhere.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 24, 2016 7:57:39 GMT -5
No you didn't... You read to temper your expectations. You also read I am not against the Pomeranz trade for exactly that reason. You seem to be having reading comprehension issues or perhaps you're intentionally trolling. Not sure which.
If you think they felt they are getting a more back half of the rotation starter and you're cool with their thought process of trading a guy rated so highly for that then that's your prerogative.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 24, 2016 8:00:25 GMT -5
Well I should clarify and say I was against the trade but I don't hate it.
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