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Post by mtsquad on Jul 14, 2016 18:26:05 GMT -5
Now are we supposed to root for success or failure for Anderson from here on out? I have never rooted for a player to fail. I would urge you to take the same tact. Correct, absolutely the right call especially if you believe in the karma wheel.
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Post by manfred on Jul 14, 2016 18:26:47 GMT -5
First ever post -- so I want to thank everyone here for making my Sox season more entertaining.
I have not seen Pomeranz pitch, let me concede in advance. This seems like the sort of trade we might bemoan 4-5 years from now. Still, I suppose I see the Sox -- as a big market team -- operating in smaller periods than the Padres. Three years from now, if and when Espinoza is ready for the big leagues, the Sox will be a different team. I suppose -- as disappointed as I am to see AE go, it will only be a bad trade when he produces at the major league level (and if before then Pomeranz plays a role in a World Series win, it won't be a bad trade at all).
But if Dombrowski doesn't get a starter now, he is surrendering on this season, something most fans would not want, I am guessing, especially with Papi retiring, Price not getting younger etc. This means they only really need either Buch or ERod to get it together enough to be a mediocre 5th starter and the staff is solid (fingers crossed).
Maybe there was a middle ground -- getting an ok starter for less. But I am not sure that's the case -- meaning, again, it might be that the options were endure the second half with terrible pitching or trade a top prospect. Or, perhaps AE could have gotten a better pitcher -- but I don't know that either, nor would it likely be alone (Devers? Benny?). I guess what I'm saying is that this is probably the best option in a set of tough ones, and there is a difference between a painful trade and a bad one. This is painful. Bad remains to be seen.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 14, 2016 18:27:05 GMT -5
This trade is not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be.
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Post by gator39 on Jul 14, 2016 18:27:21 GMT -5
Larry Anderson only pitched for us for a month. Unless Pomeranz is a complete failure the Bagwell trade was worse.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jul 14, 2016 18:27:54 GMT -5
Ugh. Ignoring what we gave up, which is what I'll do because thinking about it makes me want to cry, the rotation of Price Wirght Pomeranz Porcello Whoever looks much more formidable now. Ugh.
Just wish we didn't have someone dumb enough in charge to constantly get fleeced in trades.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jul 14, 2016 18:29:30 GMT -5
Fleeced no question but don't blame this on Dave blame it on Clay and Erod if they were even league average this team would be up by 8 games right now ....Dave kept Benny ,Devers ,Moncada but we just lost a hell of a player because clay and Erod are dumpster fires ...Dave did what he had to do but it hurts bad . For a chance at making the playoffs you don't trade a potential #1 starter for a #4,starter. The worst part is that he and Wren will likely clean out more of the farm system to acquire a middle reliever type which still is nit going to move the needle much with respect to the Red Sox World Series chances which are quite slim.
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Post by MLBDreams on Jul 14, 2016 18:31:24 GMT -5
This is a bad trade, and that's on Dombrowski. But it's also on ownership, who you know are getting antsy and have green lit these win-now moves for dumb panicky reasons (short-term ticket sales, Ortiz's last season, etc). Its also partly on Buchholz, Rodriguez, Kelly, Owens, Johnson, and Elias. Its completely shameful that not one of those guys could step when given an opportunity this year. Not one of them.... This. DD probably not force to trade Espinoza for Pomeranz if any of these guys step up and helped them right away but they were terrible. It's their fault for not doing the job. I wish you all stop crying by the loss of Espinoza. Is he next Pedro Martinez? He cannot be call up straight from Single A to MLB and win all games with ease.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 14, 2016 18:31:27 GMT -5
This trade is not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be. I'd feel a whole lot better if Pomeranz had more of a track record of success, a lower BB/9 and 180+ innings thrown in a single season.
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Post by jmei on Jul 14, 2016 18:31:49 GMT -5
It's a bad trade, but it's better than the Margot trade (and much, much better than, say, the Shelby Miller trade) and will be received as such by the national media.
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Post by pasadenasox on Jul 14, 2016 18:32:32 GMT -5
I had begun to relax because of the small bore technocratic moves the Sox made of late. That it's not for Julio Teheran is cold comfort.
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jul 14, 2016 18:34:09 GMT -5
I don't like this trade at all. Espinoza is too much to give up for a guy with pomeranz track record. With that being said some people on here are being way too hard on this trade. First off, while I don't trust Pomeranz leaving Petco & coming to the NL he is not a scrub. Also, people saying Espinoza is a guaranteed future ace when he is an 18 year old in low A are crazy. Nobody is a guarantee in low A. & suggesting he could be in the majors by September is asinine. You would have to give up a lot more (Espy ++ Moncada or Benintendi++) to get a top pitcher with more of a track record. Assuming Pomeranz can continue his great run, it will work out to be a good deal considering the price of cost controlled top arms
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Post by taftreign on Jul 14, 2016 18:34:28 GMT -5
Just imagine the top of the rotation starter we could have had this offseason for Espinoza, Margot and Guerra. Perhaps Carrasco or Salazar or Gray etc. . .
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Post by trotfan on Jul 14, 2016 18:34:47 GMT -5
So is Pom a number what 3 in American League ? His breaking stuff is as nasty as I've seen and he has a heavy fastball but velocity is meh ....? I just think this can't be the big move yet .....prepare yourself .
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Post by jfizznet on Jul 14, 2016 18:36:08 GMT -5
I really like Pomeranz and hope he does well with us going forward. Fills an obvious need in the rotation. But this deal sucks. Its awful. Hopefully DD is done making trades this year.
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Post by redsox1534 on Jul 14, 2016 18:36:45 GMT -5
Wow. Here's why I didn't want dombrowski. He can't build a great minor league system. He usually trafes away his top prospects to quickly and undersells them. He also can panic.
Ingot no prob trading espinoza for a star sp. Like Fernandez. Also more pieces would be involved on our end for Fernandez or any true ace. But to take a chance on a guy who's been great for only a couple months in his whole sp career is scary. Yes pomeranz is talented, went #5 is former top prospect etc and yes guys like arrieta have also gone from similar situations to have great success and mybe Pomeranz has also figured it out and we are gonna love him this trade and all br wrong. We can only hope.
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Post by tomhouse on Jul 14, 2016 18:38:55 GMT -5
Funny thing about prospects. Drew Pomeranz was the 5th overall pick in the 2010 draft, higher than the Red Sox have selected in a generation, Now, at 27, he's a all-star loser, not worth an 18 year old prospect with tremendous potential who is struggling in the Sally League. Last time the Sox traded a pitcher with a huge upside was Casey Kelly. How'd that work out for the Pads? You guys may be right - Espinosa might be the next Pedro. Or he might never make it due to injury, attitude and a dozen other factors. Look on the bright side, you have 4 of the big 5 left and DD didn't deal 2-3 of those dudes to get Sonny Gray or Julio Teheran. JH wants to win one more championship before he skips the light fantastic. Pomeranz gets him another significant arm, cost controlled for 2 1/2 years. Pretty fair trade if you ask me. DD took a risk, did his job. DD is the guy who got Miggy for . . . "highly touted prospects." Those guys never really panned out except for Miller after his Sox reclamation from the wasteland. Getting Miggy was something even the great Theo Epstein (no sarcasm - he IS great) couldn't pull off. Read this Fangraphs piece on Pomeranz. It is very good. Sullivan gets it. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/drew-pomeranz-now-with-50-more-pitches/He added a cutter. It's easy to throw. It has helped him keep hitters off-balance. That's why he has remained effective. You gotta give to get. This is one of the two ways to use prospects. I like this deal. Now I'll go back to lurking and working. You guys are great. I love this site. Peace out.
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Post by trotfan on Jul 14, 2016 18:39:39 GMT -5
Fleeced no question but don't blame this on Dave blame it on Clay and Erod if they were even league average this team would be up by 8 games right now ....Dave kept Benny ,Devers ,Moncada but we just lost a hell of a player because clay and Erod are dumpster fires ...Dave did what he had to do but it hurts bad . For a chance at making the playoffs you don't trade a potential #1 starter for a #4,starter. The worst part is that he and Wren will likely clean out more of the farm system to acquire a middle reliever type which still is nit going to move the needle much with respect to the Red Sox World Series chances which are quite slim. Yeah I know ...I'm bummed about this myself the rotation is negligible better now .I hope like hell this guy is what our scouts convinced Dave he is .
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Post by jfizznet on Jul 14, 2016 18:40:30 GMT -5
Thank you Clay. Thank you Eduardo, Henry and Joe for making this trade possible.
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jul 14, 2016 18:42:30 GMT -5
First ever post -- so I want to thank everyone here for making my Sox season more entertaining. I have not seen Pomeranz pitch, let me concede in advance. This seems like the sort of trade we might bemoan 4-5 years from now. Still, I suppose I see the Sox -- as a big market team -- operating in smaller periods than the Padres. Three years from now, if and when Espinoza is ready for the big leagues, the Sox will be a different team. I suppose -- as disappointed as I am to see AE go, it will only be a bad trade when he produces at the major league level (and if before then Pomeranz plays a role in a World Series win, it won't be a bad trade at all). But if Dombrowski doesn't get a starter now, he is surrendering on this season, something most fans would not want, I am guessing, especially with Papi retiring, Price not getting younger etc. This means they only really need either Buch or ERod to get it together enough to be a mediocre 5th starter and the staff is solid (fingers crossed). Maybe there was a middle ground -- getting an ok starter for less. But I am not sure that's the case -- meaning, again, it might be that the options were endure the second half with terrible pitching or trade a top prospect. Or, perhaps AE could have gotten a better pitcher -- but I don't know that either, nor would it likely be alone (Devers? Benny?). I guess what I'm saying is that this is probably the best option in a set of tough ones, and there is a difference between a painful trade and a bad one. This is painful. Bad remains to be seen. Welcome to the insanity that is SoxProspects, Mr. Manfred. I believe we have a nice window of opportunity with our core in place (Pedey, Xander, Mookie, JBJ, Shaw, Hanley, etc...) to be extremely competitive within the next few years. A prospect like Espinoza won't be in Boston for a couple more years so to turn him into a potential elite arm like Pomeranz for 'free' for a year and a half or so is a wise move if we want to bring home another championship to Boston soon.
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Post by SALNotes on Jul 14, 2016 18:45:25 GMT -5
SP is expensive now, that's why you groom your own and when you've got a kid with among the highest ceiling in the minors you keep him
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jul 14, 2016 18:46:09 GMT -5
Smarter because we would have still had Espinoza. Some of us can think beyond next week. What does having Espinoza solve through 2018? Nothing. The core is in place for this team to win a couple World Series over the next few years. Trading for a breakout star like Pomeranz helps those chances tremendously. If he pitches like he has this year over the length of the contract then we can extend him or make him a QO and get a draft pick in return...and that is besides giving us a talented arm who can help carry us in he playoffs. I like Porcello, but he's not a guy I would be very confident in pitching in a series deciding playoff game. This is well thought out post and probably nails the rationale for why the trade was consummated. I really was hoping for Espinoza to be a home grown superstar....but it is obvious that DD wants to win now and, we don't know if that directive is coming from Henry et al, either. It is depressing to not see the possibility of Espinosa in a Sox uniform. Tough deal...but I trust the guy with 25 years experience more than most people on this board.
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Post by auger1 on Jul 14, 2016 18:47:02 GMT -5
Thank you Clay. Thank you Eduardo, Henry and Joe for making this trade possible. Upon seeing this trade, I was upset and really really hated it. However, after calming down and looking at Pom's stats, this trade isn't awful. I still think it's bad but it's not anything to lose your mind over. I quoted this because the real reason (and the person that deserves the blame) this trade happened is Clay Buchholz. Not that anyone here needed any more reason to hate the guy, but if he was even below average Dom wouldn't have had to make a trade in this extreme sellers market. You can also point fingers at Joe Kelly. Both of them being complete dumpster fires (and ERod's injury) forced DD's hand
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Post by Guidas on Jul 14, 2016 18:48:52 GMT -5
From Keith Law's response: This is an absolute steal for the Padres, even acknowledging the risks attendant to any 18-year-old pitcher, and to any pitcher who's still in Low-A and probably two years from the big leagues in a best-case scenario and three to four in a reasonable one. Pomeranz is good, but he has no track record of doing what he's doing now prior to 2016;
The full trade assessment is here (Insider): insider.espn.go.com/blog/keith-law/insider/post?id=5376
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jul 14, 2016 18:49:20 GMT -5
So is Pom a number what 3 in American League ? His breaking stuff is as nasty as I've seen and he has a heavy fastball but velocity is meh ....? I just think this can't be the big move yet .....prepare yourself . Pomeranz is essentially the NL version of Rich Hill. He uses his curveball close to 50% of the time, trailing only.....Rich Hill. Only difference between them is Pomeranz is much younger and under contract through 2018. I'd say he's our #2 or 3 starter at the moment. I'll go out on a limb and say this is our final big trade this season. This website might crash for good if DD made another big trade.
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Post by burythehammer on Jul 14, 2016 18:49:25 GMT -5
Have a terrible feeling this is going to be our genertion's Bagwell for Larry Anderson.
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