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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 21, 2013 18:33:36 GMT -5
Chapman is obviously a poor example. They just don't want to use him as a starter for obvious reasons, and there is no way of knowing how he would do. Huh? Why is he a bad example? What "obvious" reasons are there that they don't want him to be a starter, other than that it's really hard to teach a guy how to throw 100 pitches at a time after he's become acclimated to throwing 15 at a time? Really not sure what you're talking about here. Feliz and Ogando got hurt. I guess it's possible that both injuries were related to their move from the bullpen to the rotation. Do you have a logical explanation as to why such a move would increase injury risk? Jumping from 60-70 innings to 200+ doesn't seem problematic to you? Then why do teams bother with ramping up prospects so slowly? Moreover, in a modern one-inning roll, all you're teaching a guy to do is throw max-effort fastballs. Guys don't learn to pace themselves and mix pitches that way, and while I don't know if you can draw a direct connection from that to increased injury risk, it certainly isn't helping. As far as putting RDLR in the pen, there are some who believe that he belongs there anyways. He has a great fastball and slider, but the delivery looks very high effort. He's already torn apart his elbow once, so maybe the idea of him pitching fewer innings isn't the worst idea.Sure, because relief pitchers never get injured. I get that there's a good chance that he ends up in the bullpen, but as long as he has a chance to start, I want to maximize that. I don't want to shove him into a one-inning roll that he'll probably never escape from just because of a momentary need in the bullpen.
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alnipper
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Living the dream
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Post by alnipper on Jun 23, 2013 10:54:04 GMT -5
I see him as our number 3 prospect.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 1, 2013 14:15:04 GMT -5
Something interesting.
Click the RDLR stats page here and get the MLB page? Then The "Boston" where you get what he has "supposedly" done for the team this season and it shows he has pitched in 4 games, with a save already this year.
We know he has not yet pitched for them, just been on the roster as of yet.
This has already been asked am sure, but is there a way the site could reference to something like Baseball reference or another site that is more accurate than MLB for stats?
Not knocking the site at all, just a though.
Thanks.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 1, 2013 15:06:51 GMT -5
Fenway, it baffles me how someone who constantly harps on people providing proof and who rips on major league teams not being logical in the usage of the bullpen would fall back on something like this:
Jumping from 60-70 innings to 200+ doesn't seem problematic to you? Then why do teams bother with ramping up prospects so slowly?
Also, why wouldn't he ever escape the 1 inning role? Just because? Wainwright escaped it just fine. All they have to do it commit to starting him next year. He can throw out of the Sox pen in late August and September if they need him this year and easily go back to starting next year. From someone who complains about us babying pitchers, it's shocking to me that you wouldn't be in favor of such a move.
There are plenty of guys who pitch out of the bullpen down the stretch one year then start the next season. It's completely different than putting him in the pen for a full season. I don't know why we wouldn't want our best pitchers on the pitching staff for the playoffs.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 1, 2013 15:28:56 GMT -5
Something interesting. Click the RDLR stats page here and get the MLB page? Then The "Boston" where you get what he has "supposedly" done for the team this season and it shows he has pitched in 4 games, with a save already this year. We know he has not yet pitched for them, just been on the roster as of yet. This has already been asked am sure, but is there a way the site could reference to something like Baseball reference or another site that is more accurate than MLB for stats? Not knocking the site at all, just a though. Thanks. Those are his spring training stats.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 1, 2013 15:35:32 GMT -5
Obviously it's not impossible to convert a closer/reliever back to starting. But when you put a guy in a roll where he's going to throw 85% fastballs at max effort for 15 pitches at a clip, you're not helping him become a starter. You're at best stalling his development, and really what you're doing is developing him into something else. Part of my problem with how teams treat pitchers these days is everyone is now clustered at two extreme ends of the usage spectrum. Either you're in there to throw 100 pitches or you're in there to throw 15, and I think that lots of players with starter-quality arms get stuck in the bullpen because of it. There's a skillset involved in pitching multiple innings, and you can't learn it pitching one inning at a time. RDLR out of the pen down the stretch? Great idea. But let him pitch 2-3 innings at a time.
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Post by hammerhead on Jul 1, 2013 15:39:01 GMT -5
I agree with the above (rjp) 100% (meaning not Fenway). I want Rubby to be a starter, I think he's going to be a damn good major league starter for a long long long time. I absolutely don't want him pidgeon holed to the bullpen.
That being said, It's absolutely a good idea to call Rubby up as bullpen arm. If the sox think he can help for some 2inning stints at the end of August on then go for it. It will help keep his innings down and slowly give him experience in the major leagues.
That is what you do. Major league teams have used the hot-starting-prospect in relief since the dawn of time, hell in the old days you had to prove yourself as a reliever before you could start.
The only reason it's even a question are the Bard, Joba and Feliz catstrophe's and that had a whole lot more to do with the players being brain dead than anything else.
You simply use the best arms, guys who can get the most outs down the stretch.
It is silly to think that it would hurt Rubby's development to use him in the pen. Or to think that if he's used in the pen he can't ever be a starter ever again.
Derek Lowe and CJ wilson say yes it works, and John Smoltz says damn spankin
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 1, 2013 15:56:23 GMT -5
That is what you do. Major league teams have used the hot-starting-prospect in relief since the dawn of time, hell in the old days you had to prove yourself as a reliever before you could start.They were throwing multiple innings out of the pen back then. Great idea! Teams should think about using it again.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 1, 2013 16:06:21 GMT -5
That is what you do. Major league teams have used the hot-starting-prospect in relief since the dawn of time, hell in the old days you had to prove yourself as a reliever before you could start.They were throwing multiple innings out of the pen back then. Great idea! Teams should think about using it again. Mike Marshall and Bill Campbell style, as in 175-200 IP a year wise? Kidding, but days of relievers going 3-4IP 2-3 days in a row is long done and hard to find.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 1, 2013 16:14:54 GMT -5
They were throwing multiple innings out of the pen back then. Great idea! Teams should think about using it again. Mike Marshall and Bill Campbell style, as in 175-200 IP a year wise? Kidding, but days of relievers going 3-4IP 2-3 days in a row is long done and hard to find. Obviously if you did this today, you wouldn't have guys throwing multiple days in a row, but there's no need for that anyway.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 1, 2013 16:18:23 GMT -5
I would think we'd see De La Rosa come up and help the bullpen in short, not long, stints by the end of the year.
I'm sure the Sox are monitoring his innings really closely and barring an absolute bullpen disaster they would want Rubby to start for as long as he can this season, but by season's end with the innings piling up, the Sox would want to save him for 1 inning stints, and not for longer relief stints than that.
I would think that if he comes up dominating that he might find himself as an 8th inning setup man or not likely but not out of the realm of possibility - the closer role.
I think the Sox would turn to Workman first out of the bullpen perhaps in August and then get De La Rosa up by the end of August. I don't foresee the Sox going all out for Jesse Crain or giving up too much to get a reliever - or I'd hope they don't. They need to get Bailey back to where he was earlier in the year and get another arm to take some of the pressure off of Tazawa and Uehara. I think Workman will get first crack and then De La Rosa will join him later on.
And then by next year, I'd fully expect that De La Rosa will be back to starting.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 1, 2013 16:19:29 GMT -5
Mike Marshall and Bill Campbell style, as in 175-200 IP a year wise? Kidding, but days of relievers going 3-4IP 2-3 days in a row is long done and hard to find. Obviously if you did this today, you wouldn't have guys throwing multiple days in a row, but there's no need for that anyway. Yeah. I do miss 4 man rotations, SP going 7-9IP and teams only really needing 2-3 relievers though. Pitching has done a 180 over the last 3-4 decades in the game, while the hitting part hasn't changed that much.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 1, 2013 16:22:25 GMT -5
Obviously if you did this today, you wouldn't have guys throwing multiple days in a row, but there's no need for that anyway. Yeah. I do miss 4 man rotations, SP going 7-9IP and teams only really needing 2-3 relievers though. Pitching has done a 180 over the last 3-4 decades in the game, while the hitting part hasn't changed that much. I think with the increase in offense and the guaranteed big dollar contracts those days are long gone, but I do wonder how far it will go. 120 years ago teams had two or three starters and a pitcher might go 400 innings. Then it got paired back to where the league leader might top 300. Now 200 innings is a big deal and we're at the 5 man rotations with teams who have tinkered with the idea of using 6 starters (good luck finding quality among that quantity).
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 1, 2013 16:31:09 GMT -5
Yeah. I do miss 4 man rotations, SP going 7-9IP and teams only really needing 2-3 relievers though. Pitching has done a 180 over the last 3-4 decades in the game, while the hitting part hasn't changed that much. I think with the increase in offense and the guaranteed big dollar contracts those days are long gone, but I do wonder how far it will go. 120 years ago teams had two or three starters and a pitcher might go 400 innings. Then it got paired back to where the league leader might top 300. Now 200 innings is a big deal and we're at the 5 man rotations with teams who have tinkered with the idea of using 6 starters (good luck finding quality among that quantity). Umpiring may have had some effect on the offense. Remember when the NL would call the high strike and the AL would call the low strike due to NL's use of the balloon chest protector and AL ump's use of the inside protector? Both leagues also had larger zones, then the game decided to get more offense into the game and offense went up, quality of pitching has gone down some as you stated. I remember also when most pitchers didn't even throw 90mph, A 90-92mph FB was considered good. Rambling some there, but the league could go a long way to parity with fixing the strike zone equaling out the game again to fix the pitching dilemma by eliminating a human umpire from calling balls and strikes and going with either the "fox trax" or some other electronic device. It is past time to implement. Apologies mods if this is off topic and needs moving.
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Post by knuckledown on Jul 2, 2013 7:11:30 GMT -5
I think the Rubby-as-reliever idea has some legs, but aren't we more likely at this point to see him called up for a spot start or two and then move to the bullpen? Similar path to Morales on his way back from injury earlier this year. Long term, I want him to start, but if he can be another live arm available for the 6th-8th innings, I'm in.
Also, wouldn't a middle ground here be for him to replace Mortensen's role as the long reliever/ swingman?
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 2, 2013 8:29:54 GMT -5
He could make a spot start, but Webster has that sixth starter role right now so I hope we don't get to number 7 or 8. I'm hoping no trades are made. I'd like to see them stick to their plans coming into this year. If low level moves are made, then that's all good. I'd rather Ruby in the pen gaining experience. I know Joba and Bard scare people but like was said, mentally they are screwed up. I don't think they would've stayed successful anywhere. I don't know RDL mental fortitude but we have him now so it is what it is. Try it out.
I think experience vs major league hitters again can outweigh30-40 days of not starting even if in one inning stints.Get intregrated into the club house and major league life. Even if not, it's neutral affect on his long term. It's more important to help the big club.
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Post by juanpena on Jul 2, 2013 15:29:15 GMT -5
I would love to see Rubby as a reliever with the big club right now. I think he can help the team both by giving them solid innings and keeping them from burning out Tazawa and Uehara. And if De La Rosa does pitch well in Boston, it lessens the chance of trading prospect(s) for guys like John Axford, Kevin Gregg or Francisco Rodriguez
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Post by knuckledown on Jul 3, 2013 7:18:16 GMT -5
I know Joba and Bard scare people but like was said, mentally they are screwed up. I don't think they would've stayed successful anywhere. I don't know RDL mental fortitude but we have him now so it is what it is. Try it out. There's the elephant in the room. I don't think anybody has an answer.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 3, 2013 9:13:30 GMT -5
I know Joba and Bard scare people but like was said, mentally they are screwed up. I don't think they would've stayed successful anywhere. I don't know RDL mental fortitude but we have him now so it is what it is. Try it out. There's the elephant in the room. I don't think anybody has an answer. Regardless, I don't think someone being a mental time bomb is a reason to not pitch him how you want. I don't buy the notion of " screwing a guy up" by moving his role. You are either a pro or you aren't. If you are, you can adapt and handle it; if you aren't then you're most likely going to unravel in any role.
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Post by knuckledown on Jul 3, 2013 12:19:53 GMT -5
Agreed. Mental toughness is a hard thing to judge and honestly, might be a good thing to know about RDLR before he gets slotted into a rotation spot. Pitch him now, get an idea of what you've got.
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Post by tjb21 on Jul 3, 2013 13:13:00 GMT -5
Regardless, I don't think someone being a mental time bomb is a reason to not pitch him how you want. I don't buy the notion of " screwing a guy up" by moving his role. You are either a pro or you aren't. If you are, you can adapt and handle it; if you aren't then you're most likely going to unravel in any role. I like this a lot and think you're on to something. Either a player has it, or they don't. Every skill can be worked on and refined, to a certain extent, and I don't think placing RDLR in the bullpen for the last 2ish months will devastate his career arc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 12:02:15 GMT -5
RE: Chapman:
Teams are reluctant to move a dominant closer into the rotation regardless of the chances of long-term success. In general decision makers are unlikely to trade a successful course of action for a course of action that could have even greater success. There is no incentive for them to do so and plenty of consequences if the decision does not work out. In Chapman's case, most think that he could start, but there is no way that the Reds are going to let him try and risk reams negative press the first time Chapman's replacement blows a game. Using Chapman assumes that if he were moved to the rotation he would fail, and you have no basis to assume this.
A huge stretch. You are making an apples to oranges comparison between very young arms being ramped up and more mature players. Throwing more innings isn't necessarily more difficult and in many cases hasn't led to injury risk. The greater innings amount is more structured and happens every fifth day. I am sorry I don't see the evidence that Ogando and Feliz would never have been injured had they been starters all along.
Your sarcasm aside, there is a reason why many think that DelaRosa will end up in the pen. DeLarosa's delivery is a high effort delivery that puts more stress on his arm than many other starting pitchers. Some doubt that this delivery will allow him to throw 200 innings a year. That he's already had Tommy John surgery is potential evidence of this.
In short you have presented no evidence of your hypothesis that putting pitchers in the bullpen for a short period prevents them from ever becoming effective starters. All you have presented is anecdotal evidence of two Texas starters who have gotten hurt and one player who was never given the chance to start. In DeleRosa's case, he might not have the delivery to hold up as a starter as it is.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 5, 2013 14:17:14 GMT -5
Chapman and his manager both made it clear that the closers role was their first choice.... Only bring it up to add context to him not being a starter this year. He wants to be a closer. Said he'd do what the team wanted but was clear on his preference.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 5, 2013 14:37:56 GMT -5
I am up for the idea of moving him to the relief role and seeing if his velocity will move back up to the upper 90's and stay there for 2 innings. The Red Sox at this time have multiple SP prospects who hopefully will pan out and take the spots of Lester and Dempster after 2014. Having someone next year who could be a shut down setup guy, with a power arsenal (like Bard was) is a very potent weapon and shouldn't be over looked.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 5, 2013 15:32:32 GMT -5
Chapman and his manager both made it clear that the closers role was their first choice.... Only bring it up to add context to him not being a starter this year. He wants to be a closer. Said he'd do what the team wanted but was clear on his preference. OF COURSE the player wants to be a closer. Yeah, I want to work less and make more money and be told how great and supremely important I am too. And the manager is Dusty Baker, so if you want to hitch you wagon to that star, be my guest.
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