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Wright getting second opinion on shoulder
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 13:37:45 GMT -5
It is absolutely a move that most managers wouldn't make, one that frankly seems unjustifiable. Maddon's moves may be unorthodox, but there's always a reason behind them. As mentioned, I have yet to hear a single reason to put Wright in over Pomeranz there.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 13:39:49 GMT -5
It is absolutely a move that most managers wouldn't make, one that frankly seems unjustifiable. Maddon's moves may be unorthodox, but there's always a reason behind them. As mentioned, I have yet to hear a single reason to put Wright in over Pomeranz there. With respect, you've heard plenty of reasons. Just none you've agreed with.
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Post by Smittyw on Sept 4, 2016 13:47:03 GMT -5
I think Farrell probably used up his "Well, maybe he knows more than us" benefit of the doubt a couple hundred boneheaded moves ago...but that's just me.
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 13:53:35 GMT -5
It is absolutely a move that most managers wouldn't make, one that frankly seems unjustifiable. Maddon's moves may be unorthodox, but there's always a reason behind them. As mentioned, I have yet to hear a single reason to put Wright in over Pomeranz there. With respect, you've heard plenty of reasons. Just none you've agreed with. I honestly don't think I have. Your reason was, what, that Wright was the pitcher who had pitched two days before? How is that a reason to prefer him over Pomeranz, who wouldn't pitch until three days later? ADD: the other reason you gave is secret Pomeranz injury, which seems implausible. If he's healthy enough to pitch and field his position and hit, he's healthy enough to pinch-run.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 4, 2016 13:57:17 GMT -5
What if Farrell used Pomeranz and he got hurt? Then that's a good move?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 4, 2016 13:58:10 GMT -5
With respect, you've heard plenty of reasons. Just none you've agreed with. I honestly don't think I have. Your reason was, what, that Wright was the pitcher who had pitched next-to-last? How is that a reason to prefer him over Pomeranz, who would pitch three days from Wednesday? So let's say that Pomeranz got hurt instead of Wright. What changes? Do you know what the difference was in the chances of Pomeranz getting hurt and Wright getting hurt? I don't know how that could be argued. However, no pitcher would get hurt if they were told to stand on the base and not slide.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 14:00:24 GMT -5
With respect, you've heard plenty of reasons. Just none you've agreed with. I honestly don't think I have. Your reason was, what, that Wright was the pitcher who had pitched next-to-last? How is that a reason to prefer him over Pomeranz, who would pitch three days from Wednesday? Pomeranz last pitched Thursday, so he would have had his side session on this day. I don't know if he already threw that day, but in extra innings he would have been available for an inning if needed. I'm assuming this isn't an acceptable answer for you but it's another possible explanation.
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 4, 2016 14:00:46 GMT -5
It is absolutely a move that most managers wouldn't make, one that frankly seems unjustifiable. Maddon's moves may be unorthodox, but there's always a reason behind them. As mentioned, I have yet to hear a single reason to put Wright in over Pomeranz there. It's done all the time in NL ball. Not sure why wright was used. Even less sure why he slid head first. But it's all Monday morning quarterbacking.
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 14:04:16 GMT -5
I honestly don't think I have. Your reason was, what, that Wright was the pitcher who had pitched next-to-last? How is that a reason to prefer him over Pomeranz, who would pitch three days from Wednesday? So let's say that Pomeranz got hurt instead of Wright. What changes? Do you know what the difference was in the chances of Pomeranz getting hurt and Wright getting hurt? I don't know how that could be argued. However, no pitcher would get hurt if they were told to stand on the base and not slide. As noted upthread, I am accepting, for the sake of argument, that they needed to use a starting pitcher as a pinch-runner.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 14:04:19 GMT -5
With respect, you've heard plenty of reasons. Just none you've agreed with. I honestly don't think I have. Your reason was, what, that Wright was the pitcher who had pitched two days before? How is that a reason to prefer him over Pomeranz, who wouldn't pitch until three days later? ADD: the other reason you gave is secret Pomeranz injury, which seems implausible. If he's healthy enough to pitch and field his position and hit, he's healthy enough to pinch-run. Secret Pomeranz injury? The Padres are being investigated for not reporting a problem with Pomeranz before the trade. It's not exactly a secret. But as you admit, (even though you call it implausible) it's still another explanation to why he chose one pitcher over another.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 4, 2016 14:07:23 GMT -5
As noted upthread, I am accepting, for the sake of argument, that they needed to use a starting pitcher as a pinch-runner. What if he got hurt?
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 4, 2016 14:07:48 GMT -5
All of this Pomeranz and Wright discussion seems beside the point to me. Why does a pitcher need to run there in any situation? Someone had to take over first base from Papi after that inning anyway, so all you are doing is burning the pitcher for, what exactly? Just use whoever is going to take over first base. Literally any position player on the roster (except Papi) would be a better choice than Wright or Pomeranz.
Am I missing some element of the equation since I wasn't around?
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 14:08:00 GMT -5
Honest question: do you really believe that using Wright over Pomeranz there was close to a justifiable decision?
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 14:09:31 GMT -5
As noted upthread, I am accepting, for the sake of argument, that they needed to use a starting pitcher as a pinch-runner. What if he got hurt? The odds of Pomeranz getting hurt were less than the odds of Wright getting hurt, and the consequences of his getting hurt would have been less severe. This is not judging a decision based on the results. This is judging a decision based on the ex ante logic.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 14:10:56 GMT -5
All of this Pomeranz and Wright discussion seems beside the point to me. Why does a pitcher need to run there in any situation? Someone had to take over first base from Papi after that inning anyway, so all you are doing is burning the pitcher for, what exactly? Just use whoever is going to take over first base. Literally any position player on the roster (except Papi) would be a better choice than Wright or Pomeranz. Am I missing some element of the equation since I wasn't around? Papi wasn't playing first that night. He was removed from the game the night before when he played first because discomfort in his feet. That night he was pinch hitting in the pitchers spot and was the lead runner in a one run game. He needed to be pinch run for.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 4, 2016 14:12:24 GMT -5
No matter who was picked to PR, a coach should have told him not to try to be Ricky Henderson out there and get huge secondary leads. He should be running like Papi. Stand near the base and don't slide unless your life depends on it. Because not getting hurt is the #1 through 10 biggest priorities for a starting pitcher on the base paths. Maybe #11 is scoring a run. i think this is the most important part of the debate, although in practice, it may be difficult to adhere to. The points about stuff happening are true, but the wisdom of this choice deserves condemnation. Of all the guys that could have done that, we are talking about the oldest and with no experience that I am aware of. I think this was managerial malpractice, if not because he has been out 2nd best pitcher (maybe best) for the year. You'd have a hard time convincing me that this was the logical choice.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 4, 2016 14:14:41 GMT -5
Honest question: do you really believe that using Wright over Pomeranz there was close to a justifiable decision? Perhaps more importantly, how big of a difference do you think it makes? If you're arguing that using him was wrong because it led to an injury, why using another comparable guy would be ok? Pomeranz is more "athletic", sure, he has also been more injured than Wright. If you think that no pitcher should be used ever as a pinch runner, that's better. I don't agree with it, but that makes more sense.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 4, 2016 14:15:08 GMT -5
All of this Pomeranz and Wright discussion seems beside the point to me. Why does a pitcher need to run there in any situation? Someone had to take over first base from Papi after that inning anyway, so all you are doing is burning the pitcher for, what exactly? Just use whoever is going to take over first base. Literally any position player on the roster (except Papi) would be a better choice than Wright or Pomeranz. Am I missing some element of the equation since I wasn't around? Papi wasn't playing first that night. He was removed from the game the night before when he played first because discomfort in his feet. That night he was pinch hitting in the pitchers spot and was the lead runner in a one run game. He needed to be pinch run for. Ah, gotcha ... thought someone said he was playing 1B. Well, then PR the pitcher does make some sense, I'll grant that. I'd still agree with jmei that Pomeranz was the better choice, but it's not that egregious an error ...
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 14:15:25 GMT -5
All of this Pomeranz and Wright discussion seems beside the point to me. Why does a pitcher need to run there in any situation? Someone had to take over first base from Papi after that inning anyway, so all you are doing is burning the pitcher for, what exactly? Just use whoever is going to take over first base. Literally any position player on the roster (except Papi) would be a better choice than Wright or Pomeranz. Am I missing some element of the equation since I wasn't around? Ortiz wasn't at first base that game-- he had just pinch-hit for the pitcher and walked. They had just used Hill and Brentz as pinch-hitters earlier that inning, and the only other position players on the bench were Sandy Leon and Hanley Ramirez. It was just the sixth inning, so they wanted to keep one of them on the bench to hit for the pitcher in the eighth/ninth (and they ended up using Hanley Ramirez in that role). I probably would have just kept Ortiz in there (he was the go-ahead run on second base, but there were two outs), but I think Wright over Pomeranz is a worse decision than using a pitcher as a pinch-runner.
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 14:17:47 GMT -5
Honest question: do you really believe that using Wright over Pomeranz there was close to a justifiable decision? Perhaps more importantly, how big of a difference do you think it makes? If you're arguing that using him was wrong because it led to an injury, why using another comparable guy would be ok? Pomeranz is more "athletic", sure, he has also been more injured than Wright. If you think that no pitcher should be used ever as a pinch runner, that's better. I don't agree with it, but that makes more sense. I've not made any claims about the magnitude of the mistake or that it was an mistake because Wright got hurt. I agree that it's not a significant mistake-- certainly far from a fireable offense. But it was a mistake, and I find it crazy that there are so many folks here who steadfastly defend it.
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dd
Veteran
Posts: 979
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Post by dd on Sept 4, 2016 14:20:23 GMT -5
No matter who was picked to PR, a coach should have told him not to try to be Ricky Henderson out there and get huge secondary leads. He should be running like Papi. Stand near the base and don't slide unless your life depends on it. Because not getting hurt is the #1 through 10 biggest priorities for a starting pitcher on the base paths. Maybe #11 is scoring a run. i think this is the most important part of the debate, although in practice, it may be difficult to adhere to. The points about stuff happening are true, but the wisdom of this choice deserves condemnation. Of all the guys that could have done that, we are talking about the oldest and with no experience that I am aware of. I think this was managerial malpractice, if not because he has been out 2nd best pitcher (maybe best) for the year. You'd have a hard time convincing me that this was the logical choice. I apologize if the answer to this has already been reported but I haven't seen it. Do we know that he wasn't told to be careful (possibly with some details on what that means)?
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Post by soxjim on Sept 4, 2016 14:23:31 GMT -5
It was enough that the Red Sox didn't seek compensation so why assume he can't run? He was pitching fine with San Diego while still having to bat, correct? You mean it didn't affect him with San Diego but it is affecting him now with Red Sox? Why are you seeking ghosts? Or are you indirectly implying that the manager couldn't be that stupid to use Wright- so this must be a reason? I'm simply implying that I don't know everything that the manager knows on any given night. Are you implying that you do? I don't believe a word you are saying here and imo you are being deliberately argumentative. On a prior post on this thread you said the following:
Wright was chosen because he was the starting pitcher in the previous night's game, which is absolutely common practice.
Your post here clearly implies that you do know what Farrell's thinking was. Now you are trying a different tact.
And for you to say on a later post you think he should be fired too - I find it beyond belief that you could question other posters for believing this incompetent manager just made another awful move rather than your made-up suggestion that it could be due to the pre-condition San Diego injury. For those of us that believe he is incompetent with all the other moves Farrell made, and see that Pomeranz was running well enough in San Diego, along with Farrell completely breaking away from his managerial style by risking an experience and slow top tier starter, then there should be absolutely no sane reason for you to believe many of us right with the continued incompetence of Farrell regarding this move, rather than you throwing a dart with a potential Pomz injury. After you were initially arguing not an injury but every other manger would have ran him too. You're throwing darts hoping one sticks.
I think it so bizarre that for someone who says they think JF should be fired and you see that this move went against his entire managerial philosophy that you could then try to make up that it might have been because of an injury rather than incompetence. If you truly lost confidence in him as you suggest as a manager (which is why he should be fired), then how can you doubt that he probably just broke away from how he normally manages and just made another idiotic move?
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 4, 2016 14:23:56 GMT -5
Perhaps more importantly, how big of a difference do you think it makes? If you're arguing that using him was wrong because it led to an injury, why using another comparable guy would be ok? Pomeranz is more "athletic", sure, he has also been more injured than Wright. If you think that no pitcher should be used ever as a pinch runner, that's better. I don't agree with it, but that makes more sense. I've not made any claims about the magnitude of the mistake or that it was an mistake because Wright got hurt. I agree that it's not a significant mistake-- certainly far from a fireable offense. But it was a mistake, and I find it crazy that there are so many folks here who steadfastly defend it.
Like the rest of us you have no idea why the choice was made. Wright was once an every day player, no idea of Drew's past. Not sure why you are so strong that it was the wrong move. You said the results didn't influence you. What do you know, that the rest of us don't?
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 14:32:18 GMT -5
I've not made any claims about the magnitude of the mistake or that it was an mistake because Wright got hurt. I agree that it's not a significant mistake-- certainly far from a fireable offense. But it was a mistake, and I find it crazy that there are so many folks here who steadfastly defend it.
Like the rest of us you have no idea why the choice was made. Wright was once an every day player, no idea of Drew's past. Not sure why you are so strong that it was the wrong move. You said the results didn't influence you. What do you know, that the rest of us don't? As far as I can tell, Steven Wright has not ever been a position player in his professional career (including the minors when he was in the Indians system). I don't think he was one in college, either. I'm willing to bet that the number of times that a 32-year-old AL starting pitcher has been used as a pinch-runner can be counted on one hand (if it has even ever occurred at all). If anyone has a Baseball-Reference Play Index subscription and wants to run the search, I'd be much obliged. The reason I feel strongly about this is because it is just about the clearest example of a bad decision (process-wise, not results-wise) that I can remember in recent history. Yet the pro-Farrell folks here still steadfastly defend it. It's emblematic of how political the whole Farrell argument has become. Folks on both sides aren't willing to give an inch.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 14:38:39 GMT -5
I'm simply implying that I don't know everything that the manager knows on any given night. Are you implying that you do? I don't believe a word you are saying here and imo you are being deliberately argumentative. On a prior post on this thread you said the following:
Wright was chosen because he was the starting pitcher in the previous night's game, which is absolutely common practice.
Your post here clearly implies that you do know what Farrell's thinking was. Now you are trying a different tact.
And for you to say on a later post you think he should be fired too - I find it beyond belief that you could question other posters for believing this incompetent manager just made another awful move rather than your made-up suggestion that it could be due to the pre-condition San Diego injury. For those of us that believe he is incompetent with all the other moves Farrell made, and see that Pomeranz was running well enough in San Diego, along with Farrell completely breaking away from his managerial style by risking an experience and slow top tier starter, then there should be absolutely no sane reason for you to believe many of us right with the continued incompetence of Farrell regarding this move, rather than you throwing a dart with a potential Pomz injury. After you were initially arguing not an injury but every other manger would have ran him too. You're throwing darts hoping one sticks.
I think it so bizarre that for someone who says they think JF should be fired and you see that this move went against his entire managerial philosophy that you could then try to make up that it might have been because of an injury rather than incompetence. If you truly lost confidence in him as you suggest as a manager (which is why he should be fired), then how can you doubt that he probably just broke away from how he normally manages and just made another idiotic move?
I guess I don't see how he went against his "entire managerial philosophy." What exactly is his philosophy and how did he entirely go against it? To your broader point I will only say that just because I don't think JF should still manage this team doesn't mean I think that every move he makes - no matter what - is the wrong move. It's interesting that you think differently. But you still never really answered my earlier question. Pomeranz had an injury in San Diego that wasn't bad enough to do anything more than inform MLB. I'm saying that I don't know if it was the cause for keeping him out, and you are. What was the injury and exactly how bad was it? I would like as much detail as possible so I can be as well informed as you are.
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