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2016 Non Red Sox playoff thread
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 22, 2016 11:34:36 GMT -5
Even though Theo was the guy who thought it would be a bad idea if Tito met me as he wanted (not that I knew that at the time), I have to go with the Cubs here. Tito has nothing to prove; what he's done in this post-season just proves his genius at handling pitchers. Really, he and Farrell being BFF is like Albert Einstein being BFF with Paris Hilton. I agree that Tito has nothing to prove, but I don't want to live in a world where Maddon beats him in the World Series. As much as it pains me to root for a Lebron James endorsed team, I really have to go with the Indians on this one.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 22, 2016 15:17:28 GMT -5
For the umpteenth time, we have no idea that the "lowball" offer was in fact that, because we have never heard what the initial offer is in any contract negotiation. They are not made public, because initial offers are not rejected out of hand and then leaked to the press. Lester's side did not make a counter-offer, and instead leaked the Sox initial offer to the press. That means a) he didn''t ever want to sign here, and b) he wanted to make it look like the Sox had screwed up. Stop being such naive suckers, please. You say it wasn't a low ball offer, but 4/70 was reported as an offer, and it was quite low. I said I didn't trust him in this matter (as far as wanting to re-sign here), but apparently your reading skills missed that. The only naive sucker is you in this matter, if you think he wasn't shocked. I mean, wouldn't you be if you were him?
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Post by DesignatedKyle on Oct 22, 2016 21:56:22 GMT -5
very happy for Theo and Rossy
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 22, 2016 22:05:41 GMT -5
Congratulations to the NL Pennant winning Chicago Cubs!!!
I'm so happy for their fanbase! If the Red Sox couldn't walk David Ortiz off into the sunset as winners I'm glad it's the Cubs/Indians, Theo vs Tito, 1908 vs 1948. This is when I get to enjoy being just a baseball fan. I'll be happy with whoever wins the World Series! Hope it's an exciting 7 game thriller, although I think the Cubs will knock the Indians out in 5 games. It's hard to be off that long and it would be really hard for Tito to navigate the series with Kluber, Tomlin, Merritt, and Clevenger as the starters.
Really hope Red Sox ownership is realizing that the best manager they ever had and the best GM they ever had are huge parts of the two organizations opposing each other in the World Series. Theo and Tito should still be here!
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Post by Alonzo on Oct 22, 2016 23:05:40 GMT -5
Really hope Red Sox ownership is realizing that the best manager they ever had and the best GM they ever had are huge parts of the two organizations opposing each other in the World Series. Theo and Tito should still be here! I agree with the fact that Theo should have never been let go. It's sad that he didn't feel comfortable in Boston anymore. Probably due to LL. He's hands down the best GM in baseball. Terry's case has not been that obvious to handle. Seemed like he was burned out after the chicken and beer fiasco season. The players wouldn't have done that sh** if he had the clubhouse under control. So it might have make sense for him to take a time out. BUT if they hadn't burned bridges and started this dreadful smear campaign, there would have been a strong possibillity of a comeback. We thankfully didn't miss a beat by taking advantage of that fluke season in 2013 and the great core of young players...but I feel they could have done better with Theo in charge.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 22, 2016 23:25:44 GMT -5
Really hope Red Sox ownership is realizing that the best manager they ever had and the best GM they ever had are huge parts of the two organizations opposing each other in the World Series. Theo and Tito should still be here! I agree with the fact that Theo should have never been let go. It's sad that he didn't feel comfortable in Boston anymore. Probably due to LL. He's hands down the best GM in baseball. Terry's case has not been that obvious to handle. Seemed like he was burned out after the chicken and beer fiasco season. The players wouldn't have done that sh** if he had the clubhouse under control. So it might have make sense for him to take a time out. BUT if they hadn't burned bridges and started this dreadful smear campaign, there would have been a strong possibillity of a comeback. We thankfully didn't miss a beat by taking advantage of that fluke season in 2013 and the great core of young players...but I feel they could have done better with Theo in charge. Theo's fingerprints are still all over the 2016 team, particularly with that great 2011 draft and having had signed Papi, having brought Bogaerts into the organization, and drafted Pedroia previously. One day his fingerprints won't be on the Red Sox anymore. I'd be nervous as to what a totally Dombrowski built team would look like. Guess we'll find out at some point. Tito did say that his voice wasn't being heard in 2011, but I honestly think that was more on the players and that the collapse was more a byproduct of having absolutely no starting pitching beyond Jon Lester, and it was a teamwide collapse. Bard and Papelbon struggled, and the lineup couldn't get a clutch hit to save their lives. I know it sounds like I'm trying to exonerate Tito, but I honestly believe the collapse was a lot more than "chicken and beer", although it seemed like the team wasn't as tight-knit or as focused as it should have been.
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 23, 2016 0:37:44 GMT -5
Tito flat out lost the 2011 squad, but there was a lot of turmoil in the FO during those days. The amount of mismanagement surrounding Theo and Tito those days is curse worthy (although luckily it was a very short curse).
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 23, 2016 8:08:41 GMT -5
Could not agree more. It had to be Lucchino interfering as always and trying to low ball Lester for some stupid reason. The fact that Henry, who made it clear that he wanted Lester back, didn't have the manhood to tell Lucchino to step aside and finish the deal himself is sad. The same can be side for how Henry dealt with Theo. He should have told Lucchino years ago to stay out of the baseball operations and given Theo free reign like he appears to have in Chicago. Theo should be the Sox Pres. of Baseball Op's with Hoyer, Hazen or BC as the GM. Instead we are stuck with Dombrowski and I am scared as heck that he is going to trade the farm after falling short this year in the playoffs. For the umpteenth time, we have no idea that the "lowball" offer was in fact that, because we have never heard what the initial offer is in any contract negotiation. They are not made public, because initial offers are not rejected out of hand and then leaked to the press. Lester's side did not make a counter-offer, and instead leaked the Sox initial offer to the press. That means a) he didn''t ever want to sign here, and b) he wanted to make it look like the Sox had screwed up. Stop being such naive suckers, please. Try imagining it from Jon Lester's point of view. Ask yourself how you would feel if you have been a reliable 200 innings/year pitcher (which is rare these days), who has pitched mostly like an ace, but has been at his best in the post-season. I'm sure the Red Sox didn't extend a "lowball" offer to David Price to get him to sign and wait for the negotations to occur. I'm sure you'll tell it's apples and oranges. Price was a free agent, free to sign with anybody and Lester was still under contract with the Red Sox, couldn't sign with anybody else until after the season. But it's not apples and oranges to the player. If the Red Sox had made a reasonable starting offer of 5 years $100 million and it got rejected nobody would have thought the lesser of the Red Sox. And I doubt that the figure would get leaked because I think it would have been a legit starting point towards a deal. The deal still might not have gotten done, but it would have told Lester's camp that they were actually serious about wanting to retain his services. But 4 years $70 million is a joke, particularly when you consider how Lester had pitched for the Red Sox. He obviously thought he was worth a helluva lot more and he was right. He went out and pitched as well as he ever had in 2014 and they traded him. Given that they didn't sign him, it made sense to deal him and they ultimately did well in that regard turning him into Cespedes before turning Cespedes into Porcello. The offer was so "lowball" it was obvious that the Red Sox and Lester weren't going to be in the same zipcode so the offer got leaked to show that the Red Sox weren't even remotely serious about retaining Lester. Had the first offer been even reasonable I doubt it gets leaked. Instead it would have lead to further negotiations. As it was I think Lester at one point said 5 years and $110 would have sealed the deal But they still could have signed him in the offseason. Again they didn't think he was worth the money that Theo thought he was worth. I think if they had been willing to match what Theo offered Lester probably would have came back. You can be condescending with the "naive suckers" line if you want but the real naive suckers were the Red Sox. They had two chances to keep this pitcher and they blew it. They lowballed him in the first place and then when they had a chance to bring him back they lowballed him a second time. I'd think by now it's obvious the Cubs have gotten great value in this deal for a guy who was on the wrong side of 30. Don't know if he's a true "ace" but he's certainly the guy who will be selected to pitch the first game of a post-season series, which is pretty damn valuable. I always felt Lester was the Red Sox' version of Andy Pettitte and would age very well. So far he has and the Cubs haven't regretted that contract one iota. In a perfect world Porcello and Lester would be teammates and the guy with a good post season track record would have pitched Game 1 of the ALDS instead. Instead they spent more dollars and years for Price (to be honest, I still would have loved to see them spend the money on Price even if they had Lester and Porcello - you can never have too much quality starting pitching).
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 23, 2016 8:30:55 GMT -5
For the umpteenth time, we have no idea that the "lowball" offer was in fact that, because we have never heard what the initial offer is in any contract negotiation. They are not made public, because initial offers are not rejected out of hand and then leaked to the press. Lester's side did not make a counter-offer, and instead leaked the Sox initial offer to the press. That means a) he didn''t ever want to sign here, and b) he wanted to make it look like the Sox had screwed up. Stop being such naive suckers, please. Try imagining it from Jon Lester's point of view. Ask yourself how you would feel if you have been a reliable 200 innings/year pitcher (which is rare these days), who has pitched mostly like an ace, but has been at his best in the post-season. I'm sure the Red Sox didn't extend a "lowball" offer to David Price to get him to sign and wait for the negotations to occur. I'm sure you'll tell it's apples and oranges. Price was a free agent, free to sign with anybody and Lester was still under contract with the Red Sox, couldn't sign with anybody else until after the season. But it's not apples and oranges to the player. If the Red Sox had made a reasonable starting offer of 5 years $100 million and it got rejected nobody would have thought the lesser of the Red Sox. And I doubt that the figure would get leaked because I think it would have been a legit starting point towards a deal. The deal still might not have gotten done, but it would have told Lester's camp that they were actually serious about wanting to retain his services. But 4 years $70 million is a joke, particularly when you consider how Lester had pitched for the Red Sox. He obviously thought he was worth a helluva lot more and he was right. He went out and pitched as well as he ever had in 2014 and they traded him. Given that they didn't sign him, it made sense to deal him and they ultimately did well in that regard turning him into Cespedes before turning Cespedes into Porcello. The offer was so "lowball" it was obvious that the Red Sox and Lester weren't going to be in the same zipcode so the offer got leaked to show that the Red Sox weren't even remotely serious about retaining Lester. Had the first offer been even reasonable I doubt it gets leaked. Instead it would have lead to further negotiations. As it was I think Lester at one point said 5 years and $110 would have sealed the deal But they still could have signed him in the offseason. Again they didn't think he was worth the money that Theo thought he was worth. I think if they had been willing to match what Theo offered Lester probably would have came back. You can be condescending with the "naive suckers" line if you want but the real naive suckers were the Red Sox. They had two chances to keep this pitcher and they blew it. They lowballed him in the first place and then when they had a chance to bring him back they lowballed him a second time. I'd think by now it's obvious the Cubs have gotten great value in this deal for a guy who was on the wrong side of 30. Don't know if he's a true "ace" but he's certainly the guy who will be selected to pitch the first game of a post-season series, which is pretty damn valuable. I always felt Lester was the Red Sox' version of Andy Pettitte and would age very well. So far he has and the Cubs haven't regretted that contract one iota. In a perfect world Porcello and Lester would be teammates and the guy with a good post season track record would have pitched Game 1 of the ALDS instead. Instead they spent more dollars and years for Price (to be honest, I still would have loved to see them spend the money on Price even if they had Lester and Porcello - you can never have too much quality starting pitching). At the time the 4/70 offer was supposedly made (prior to the 2013 season), Lester was coming off a 9-14 season with a 4.82 ERA. The year before that wasn't close to an ace season either. At a point during the 2013 season, there was discussion about not picking up Lester's 2014 option because he was that mediocre. There is a whole lot of selective memory going on here. The bottom line is that he was nowhere near an ace until after he left the Red Sox and he did sign for the most money and didn't give the Red Sox a discount at all like he always said he would. That is what is certain. Speculating about his feelings being hurt during a contract negotiation is ridiculous when you know for a fact what the outcome was. He took the money and ran. His agents spun the entire situation exactly the way you misremember it. Poor Jon Lester, spurned by the cheapskate Red Sox. And now he gets to beat up on one of the weakest divisions in baseball with no hitting (Price had a higher fWAR this season) with $155 million in the bank. What a hero.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 23, 2016 9:14:46 GMT -5
Try imagining it from Jon Lester's point of view. Ask yourself how you would feel if you have been a reliable 200 innings/year pitcher (which is rare these days), who has pitched mostly like an ace, but has been at his best in the post-season. I'm sure the Red Sox didn't extend a "lowball" offer to David Price to get him to sign and wait for the negotations to occur. I'm sure you'll tell it's apples and oranges. Price was a free agent, free to sign with anybody and Lester was still under contract with the Red Sox, couldn't sign with anybody else until after the season. But it's not apples and oranges to the player. If the Red Sox had made a reasonable starting offer of 5 years $100 million and it got rejected nobody would have thought the lesser of the Red Sox. And I doubt that the figure would get leaked because I think it would have been a legit starting point towards a deal. The deal still might not have gotten done, but it would have told Lester's camp that they were actually serious about wanting to retain his services. But 4 years $70 million is a joke, particularly when you consider how Lester had pitched for the Red Sox. He obviously thought he was worth a helluva lot more and he was right. He went out and pitched as well as he ever had in 2014 and they traded him. Given that they didn't sign him, it made sense to deal him and they ultimately did well in that regard turning him into Cespedes before turning Cespedes into Porcello. The offer was so "lowball" it was obvious that the Red Sox and Lester weren't going to be in the same zipcode so the offer got leaked to show that the Red Sox weren't even remotely serious about retaining Lester. Had the first offer been even reasonable I doubt it gets leaked. Instead it would have lead to further negotiations. As it was I think Lester at one point said 5 years and $110 would have sealed the deal But they still could have signed him in the offseason. Again they didn't think he was worth the money that Theo thought he was worth. I think if they had been willing to match what Theo offered Lester probably would have came back. You can be condescending with the "naive suckers" line if you want but the real naive suckers were the Red Sox. They had two chances to keep this pitcher and they blew it. They lowballed him in the first place and then when they had a chance to bring him back they lowballed him a second time. I'd think by now it's obvious the Cubs have gotten great value in this deal for a guy who was on the wrong side of 30. Don't know if he's a true "ace" but he's certainly the guy who will be selected to pitch the first game of a post-season series, which is pretty damn valuable. I always felt Lester was the Red Sox' version of Andy Pettitte and would age very well. So far he has and the Cubs haven't regretted that contract one iota. In a perfect world Porcello and Lester would be teammates and the guy with a good post season track record would have pitched Game 1 of the ALDS instead. Instead they spent more dollars and years for Price (to be honest, I still would have loved to see them spend the money on Price even if they had Lester and Porcello - you can never have too much quality starting pitching). At the time the 4/70 offer was supposedly made (prior to the 2013 season), Lester was coming off a 9-14 season with a 4.82 ERA. The year before that wasn't close to an ace season either. At a point during the 2013 season, there was discussion about not picking up Lester's 2014 option because he was that mediocre. There is a whole lot of selective memory going on here. The bottom line is that he was nowhere near an ace until after he left the Red Sox and he did sign for the most money and didn't give the Red Sox a discount at all like he always said he would. That is what is certain. Speculating about his feelings being hurt during a contract negotiation is ridiculous when you know for a fact what the outcome was. He took the money and ran. His agents spun the entire situation exactly the way you misremember it. Poor Jon Lester, spurned by the cheapskate Red Sox. And now he gets to beat up on one of the weakest divisions in baseball with no hitting (Price had a higher fWAR this season) with $155 million in the bank. What a hero. I think your memory is selecting some things too. There was a lot of debate about Lester as an "ace". He wasn't a Pedro Martinez type ace obviously, but he was damn good from 2008 thru 2011. His 2012 season was kind of an outlier compared to the rest of his time with the Red Sox, and in 2013, he had a lousy middle part of the season, but after the all-star break started to pitch like the pitcher we see today. He certainly was an ace in the 2013 post-season which was a continuation of his second half season. The question at the time was did you believe in his uptick in the second half of 2013 and his track record from 2008 thru 2011 or is he the 2012 pitcher. I wanted to see them sign him then and that's not hindsight. And the NL beat up the weakest division stuff is excuse making for his success. In 2015 the Pirates, Cubs, and Cards all nearly won 100 games. The Cards were still contenders this year and he does face other NL clubs, and I'm sure he'd be fine against AL teams. And speculating about his feelings isn't that hard. Try putting yourself in his shoes. What would you have thought? He was certainly worth $22 million for 5 years coming off the 2013 season. And that would have been a hometown discount.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 23, 2016 9:44:50 GMT -5
For the umpteenth time, we have no idea that the "lowball" offer was in fact that, because we have never heard what the initial offer is in any contract negotiation. They are not made public, because initial offers are not rejected out of hand and then leaked to the press. Lester's side did not make a counter-offer, and instead leaked the Sox initial offer to the press. That means a) he didn''t ever want to sign here, and b) he wanted to make it look like the Sox had screwed up. Stop being such naive suckers, please. Try imagining it from Jon Lester's point of view. Ask yourself how you would feel if you have been a reliable 200 innings/year pitcher (which is rare these days), who has pitched mostly like an ace, but has been at his best in the post-season. I'm sure the Red Sox didn't extend a "lowball" offer to David Price to get him to sign and wait for the negotations to occur. I'm sure you'll tell it's apples and oranges. Price was a free agent, free to sign with anybody and Lester was still under contract with the Red Sox, couldn't sign with anybody else until after the season. But it's not apples and oranges to the player. If the Red Sox had made a reasonable starting offer of 5 years $100 million and it got rejected nobody would have thought the lesser of the Red Sox. And I doubt that the figure would get leaked because I think it would have been a legit starting point towards a deal. The deal still might not have gotten done, but it would have told Lester's camp that they were actually serious about wanting to retain his services. But 4 years $70 million is a joke, particularly when you consider how Lester had pitched for the Red Sox. He obviously thought he was worth a helluva lot more and he was right. He went out and pitched as well as he ever had in 2014 and they traded him. Given that they didn't sign him, it made sense to deal him and they ultimately did well in that regard turning him into Cespedes before turning Cespedes into Porcello. The offer was so "lowball" it was obvious that the Red Sox and Lester weren't going to be in the same zipcode so the offer got leaked to show that the Red Sox weren't even remotely serious about retaining Lester. Had the first offer been even reasonable I doubt it gets leaked. Instead it would have lead to further negotiations. As it was I think Lester at one point said 5 years and $110 would have sealed the deal But they still could have signed him in the offseason. Again they didn't think he was worth the money that Theo thought he was worth. I think if they had been willing to match what Theo offered Lester probably would have came back. You can be condescending with the "naive suckers" line if you want but the real naive suckers were the Red Sox. They had two chances to keep this pitcher and they blew it. They lowballed him in the first place and then when they had a chance to bring him back they lowballed him a second time. I'd think by now it's obvious the Cubs have gotten great value in this deal for a guy who was on the wrong side of 30. Don't know if he's a true "ace" but he's certainly the guy who will be selected to pitch the first game of a post-season series, which is pretty damn valuable. I always felt Lester was the Red Sox' version of Andy Pettitte and would age very well. So far he has and the Cubs haven't regretted that contract one iota. In a perfect world Porcello and Lester would be teammates and the guy with a good post season track record would have pitched Game 1 of the ALDS instead. Instead they spent more dollars and years for Price (to be honest, I still would have loved to see them spend the money on Price even if they had Lester and Porcello - you can never have too much quality starting pitching). Your brother or Dad's company has a job opening. A buddy of yours says "I'd love to have that job." You and all of your mutual friends think that would be cool, and encourage him to go for it. You get a call from your brother. "Your buddy came in for an interview. Seems like a nice guy. I was willing to pay him a $50K salary, so I offered him $40K, figuring he'd come back with $60K, and we'd settle on $50K. But he didn't. He said "I'll get back to you" and left. That was a week ago and he still hasn't called me. I've literally never had that happen in a job interview. Very strange." Next thing you hear is that your buddy has gone to work for your brother's big new rival company. This was just started by the guy who used to manage your brother's company, but he left because he couldn't get along with your brother's partner (a smart guy but an a-hole). Your buddy and this ex-manager are really tight. Whereas he barely knew your brother. Your buddy starts to tell all your mutual friends what a wicked cheapskate your brother is. "I swear I would have accepted it if they had offered me $55K, but they offered $40K, which I thought was insulting." What do you think happened here? A) Your brother is a wicked cheapskate. B) Your former buddy obviously never wanted to work for your brother's company. He only went in for the interview to make you and your mutual friends happy. And now he's b-sing about an "insulting offer" as if it were a final offer, when in fact he never even gave your brother a counter-offer. Now, you can rewrite this scenario where your brother's initial offer is somewhat lower. What if he'd offered $35K? If your buddy wants the job, he laughs and says, you're kidding, I have to have $75K (since he wants $55K). And your brother says 40 and he says, c'mon, we're still miles apart, I can go to 70, how long is this going to take. Your brother says, OK, 50. Your buddy says 60, and pretty soon they settle on 53, midway between what your brother actually wanted to pay and what your buddy actually wanted to get. There is no such thing as an insulting initial offer in a negotiation you are actually interested in completing. It may be a sign that the sides are too far apart to find common ground, but it is never an insult. (This is true even when the negotiations are being conducted by you personally, let alone by an agent.) There's a used car on sale, no price listed. You hope to get it for $10K. You ask the guy and he says, $14K. You think, really? This guy's insane. But if you actually want the f-ing car, you make him a counter-offer. You say, c'mon, that's crazy, I'll give you $7. You make a counter-offer. It's no more complicated than that.
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 23, 2016 15:15:32 GMT -5
Cubs and Indians, I can't remember a World Series that I'd be fine with either team winning. Rooting for the Cubs. ON Lester, done with the arguments, just going to root for him.
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Post by telson13 on Oct 23, 2016 15:56:17 GMT -5
Yeah, Lester was a solid #2 who had some 1a seasons, but was only ever an "ace" in the postseason, and perhaps bordering on that from 2014 on. That's not to downplay his postseason production, which has been huge, but he was ever that guy consistently in-season.
I think Eric's analogy is accurate. Lester never made any counteroffer, and it's pretty clear that the # was leaked to give him leverage to drive up the Sox's second offer and thus the maximum offer (which ended up being the Cubs). It was 100% business for him, in a completely mercenary manner. He had zero interest in staying in Boston unless they offered the most money. He simply did his best to convince the media and fans that he would, so he'd look like a "good guy," a "team player" who cared about the team. He and his negotiators knew that getting the fans/media on his side would put pressure on the FO to spend, despite his having been basically a 4/5 starter in 2012 and a good 3 in 2013. They knew he was relatively high-risk, and used his recent postseason and his good-guy image to obfuscate fans/media perception of that risk. Obviously, it worked.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Oct 23, 2016 18:02:27 GMT -5
Try imagining it from Jon Lester's point of view. Ask yourself how you would feel if you have been a reliable 200 innings/year pitcher (which is rare these days), who has pitched mostly like an ace, but has been at his best in the post-season. I'm sure the Red Sox didn't extend a "lowball" offer to David Price to get him to sign and wait for the negotations to occur. I'm sure you'll tell it's apples and oranges. Price was a free agent, free to sign with anybody and Lester was still under contract with the Red Sox, couldn't sign with anybody else until after the season. But it's not apples and oranges to the player. If the Red Sox had made a reasonable starting offer of 5 years $100 million and it got rejected nobody would have thought the lesser of the Red Sox. And I doubt that the figure would get leaked because I think it would have been a legit starting point towards a deal. The deal still might not have gotten done, but it would have told Lester's camp that they were actually serious about wanting to retain his services. But 4 years $70 million is a joke, particularly when you consider how Lester had pitched for the Red Sox. He obviously thought he was worth a helluva lot more and he was right. He went out and pitched as well as he ever had in 2014 and they traded him. Given that they didn't sign him, it made sense to deal him and they ultimately did well in that regard turning him into Cespedes before turning Cespedes into Porcello. The offer was so "lowball" it was obvious that the Red Sox and Lester weren't going to be in the same zipcode so the offer got leaked to show that the Red Sox weren't even remotely serious about retaining Lester. Had the first offer been even reasonable I doubt it gets leaked. Instead it would have lead to further negotiations. As it was I think Lester at one point said 5 years and $110 would have sealed the deal But they still could have signed him in the offseason. Again they didn't think he was worth the money that Theo thought he was worth. I think if they had been willing to match what Theo offered Lester probably would have came back. You can be condescending with the "naive suckers" line if you want but the real naive suckers were the Red Sox. They had two chances to keep this pitcher and they blew it. They lowballed him in the first place and then when they had a chance to bring him back they lowballed him a second time. I'd think by now it's obvious the Cubs have gotten great value in this deal for a guy who was on the wrong side of 30. Don't know if he's a true "ace" but he's certainly the guy who will be selected to pitch the first game of a post-season series, which is pretty damn valuable. I always felt Lester was the Red Sox' version of Andy Pettitte and would age very well. So far he has and the Cubs haven't regretted that contract one iota. In a perfect world Porcello and Lester would be teammates and the guy with a good post season track record would have pitched Game 1 of the ALDS instead. Instead they spent more dollars and years for Price (to be honest, I still would have loved to see them spend the money on Price even if they had Lester and Porcello - you can never have too much quality starting pitching). Your brother or Dad's company has a job opening. A buddy of yours says "I'd love to have that job." You and all of your mutual friends think that would be cool, and encourage him to go for it. You get a call from your brother. "Your buddy came in for an interview. Seems like a nice guy. I was willing to pay him a $50K salary, so I offered him $40K, figuring he'd come back with $60K, and we'd settle on $50K. But he didn't. He said "I'll get back to you" and left. That was a week ago and he still hasn't called me. I've literally never had that happen in a job interview. Very strange." Next thing you hear is that your buddy has gone to work for your brother's big new rival company. This was just started by the guy who used to manage your brother's company, but he left because he couldn't get along with your brother's partner (a smart guy but an a-hole). Your buddy and this ex-manager are really tight. Whereas he barely knew your brother. Your buddy starts to tell all your mutual friends what a wicked cheapskate your brother is. "I swear I would have accepted it if they had offered me $55K, but they offered $40K, which I thought was insulting." What do you think happened here? A) Your brother is a wicked cheapskate. B) Your former buddy obviously never wanted to work for your brother's company. He only went in for the interview to make you and your mutual friends happy. And now he's b-sing about an "insulting offer" as if it were a final offer, when in fact he never even gave your brother a counter-offer. Now, you can rewrite this scenario where your brother's initial offer is somewhat lower. What if he'd offered $35K? If your buddy wants the job, he laughs and says, you're kidding, I have to have $75K (since he wants $55K). And your brother says 40 and he says, c'mon, we're still miles apart, I can go to 70, how long is this going to take. Your brother says, OK, 50. Your buddy says 60, and pretty soon they settle on 53, midway between what your brother actually wanted to pay and what your buddy actually wanted to get. There is no such thing as an insulting initial offer in a negotiation you are actually interested in completing. It may be a sign that the sides are too far apart to find common ground, but it is never an insult. (This is true even when the negotiations are being conducted by you personally, let alone by an agent.) There's a used car on sale, no price listed. You hope to get it for $10K. You ask the guy and he says, $14K. You think, really? This guy's insane. But if you actually want the f-ing car, you make him a counter-offer. You say, c'mon, that's crazy, I'll give you $7. You make a counter-offer. It's no more complicated than that. How can you say this for others? It may be true for you, it may be an ideal of yours but you cannot say it for others. People can be insulted by an offer if it's so far apart it's not worth pursuing as it reflects what they think of you. Whether they believe it's your actual value or you are to foolish to realize your worth or at least approximate worth is irrevelant. You'd have to ask yourself do I want to work for someone like this? Lester announced he'd take a hometown discount (probably a mistake on his part) and LL got way to greedy after he heard that.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 23, 2016 18:08:38 GMT -5
At the time the 4/70 offer was supposedly made (prior to the 2013 season), Lester was coming off a 9-14 season with a 4.82 ERA. The year before that wasn't close to an ace season either. At a point during the 2013 season, there was discussion about not picking up Lester's 2014 option because he was that mediocre. There is a whole lot of selective memory going on here. The bottom line is that he was nowhere near an ace until after he left the Red Sox and he did sign for the most money and didn't give the Red Sox a discount at all like he always said he would. That is what is certain. Speculating about his feelings being hurt during a contract negotiation is ridiculous when you know for a fact what the outcome was. He took the money and ran. His agents spun the entire situation exactly the way you misremember it. Poor Jon Lester, spurned by the cheapskate Red Sox. And now he gets to beat up on one of the weakest divisions in baseball with no hitting (Price had a higher fWAR this season) with $155 million in the bank. What a hero. I think your memory is selecting some things too. There was a lot of debate about Lester as an "ace". He wasn't a Pedro Martinez type ace obviously, but he was damn good from 2008 thru 2011. His 2012 season was kind of an outlier compared to the rest of his time with the Red Sox, and in 2013, he had a lousy middle part of the season, but after the all-star break started to pitch like the pitcher we see today. He certainly was an ace in the 2013 post-season which was a continuation of his second half season. The question at the time was did you believe in his uptick in the second half of 2013 and his track record from 2008 thru 2011 or is he the 2012 pitcher. I wanted to see them sign him then and that's not hindsight. And the NL beat up the weakest division stuff is excuse making for his success. In 2015 the Pirates, Cubs, and Cards all nearly won 100 games. The Cards were still contenders this year and he does face other NL clubs, and I'm sure he'd be fine against AL teams. And speculating about his feelings isn't that hard. Try putting yourself in his shoes. What would you have thought? He was certainly worth $22 million for 5 years coming off the 2013 season. And that would have been a hometown discount. OK. I'm either going to tell my agents to get a deal done with Boston or I'm going to say "get the most money and protect my reputation", based on whether staying in Boston is more or less important than getting the most possible money. I wouldn't care one bit what the initial offer is, because this is business and that is an insane amount of money. There are no feelings involved when negotiating on that much money. But then again, Lester's agents never made an offer or counter offer to the Red Sox that they refused at any point in time throughout the entire process. So obviously, 5 years/$110 million was never an option.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Oct 23, 2016 18:56:48 GMT -5
I don't know who in the BC front office was the lead stategist on the Lester contract negotiations, but IMHO, it was one of the most egregious tactical mistakes I have seen in my time following the club. I don't totally trust Lester's response on the matter either, but whomever thought it was a good idea to lowball him, apparently never spent any time around the guy. He's a hardass, any way you slice it. Could not agree more. It had to be Lucchino interfering as always and trying to low ball Lester for some stupid reason. The fact that Henry, who made it clear that he wanted Lester back, didn't have the manhood to tell Lucchino to step aside and finish the deal himself is sad. The same can be side for how Henry dealt with Theo. He should have told Lucchino years ago to stay out of the baseball operations and given Theo free reign like he appears to have in Chicago. Theo should be the Sox Pres. of Baseball Op's with Hoyer, Hazen or BC as the GM. Instead we are stuck with Dombrowski and I am scared as heck that he is going to trade the farm after falling short this year in the playoffs. I take issue with the DDo comments. What is it based on? The only player of consequence he traded that was not blocked is AE. (and he was at least three years away from Boston which is outside the obvious window of contention that we have) The Kimbrell trade despite the slings and arrows of many for the volume/quality of players moved had no role on our team going forward. He dealt excess to land a closer who had the best first 4 years of his career than any closer ever and whose contract was reasonable and under control for 3 years. I believe the front office knew this team could contend this season (ergo the trade for a top notch closer) and in my estimation they should be the favorite to represent the AL in the World Series for the next 2 years.
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Post by telson13 on Oct 23, 2016 19:17:04 GMT -5
I'm not so worried about Dombrowski. Just because he's aggressive, it doesn't mean he's stupid. He made a couple of arguable (eg, defensible) trades for Kimbrel and Pomeranz, both have turned out pretty poorly so far. But both players still have a couple of years, and DD was dealing from a position of significant need/weakness in both cases. He's arguably shored up all of their glaring weaknesses and most of the moderate ones. He's dealing from strength with a young, improving team that has some (actually, a lot of) exceptionally high-end talent just beginning their MLB careers. I don't think he's going to get overly antsy and jump the gun; he's a pretty good talent evaluator and I think he'll be more sanguine with so few holes to fill.
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Post by dnfl333 on Oct 23, 2016 19:19:59 GMT -5
Could not agree more. It had to be Lucchino interfering as always and trying to low ball Lester for some stupid reason. The fact that Henry, who made it clear that he wanted Lester back, didn't have the manhood to tell Lucchino to step aside and finish the deal himself is sad. The same can be side for how Henry dealt with Theo. He should have told Lucchino years ago to stay out of the baseball operations and given Theo free reign like he appears to have in Chicago. Theo should be the Sox Pres. of Baseball Op's with Hoyer, Hazen or BC as the GM. Instead we are stuck with Dombrowski and I am scared as heck that he is going to trade the farm after falling short this year in the playoffs. I take issue with the DDo comments. What is it based on? The only player of consequence he traded that was not blocked is AE. (and he was at least three years away from Boston which is outside the obvious window of contention that we have) The Kimbrell trade despite the slings and arrows of many for the volume/quality of players moved had no role on our team going forward. He dealt excess to land a closer who had the best first 4 years of his career than any closer ever and whose contract was reasonable and under control for 3 years. I believe the front office knew this team could contend this season (ergo the trade for a top notch closer) and in my estimation they should be the favorite to represent the AL in the World Series for the next 2 years. Your delusional if you think the Kimbrel deal was worth an "A" type prospect. Dombrowski's trade grade D- Price was a disaster. Again, the coin could have landed you Cueto for cheaper dollars and thus given you with saved money, the ability to sign a legit #3 arm Dombrowski's free agent grade F Retaining Farrell? Hahaha F
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Oct 23, 2016 20:04:19 GMT -5
I take issue with the DDo comments. What is it based on? The only player of consequence he traded that was not blocked is AE. (and he was at least three years away from Boston which is outside the obvious window of contention that we have) The Kimbrell trade despite the slings and arrows of many for the volume/quality of players moved had no role on our team going forward. He dealt excess to land a closer who had the best first 4 years of his career than any closer ever and whose contract was reasonable and under control for 3 years. I believe the front office knew this team could contend this season (ergo the trade for a top notch closer) and in my estimation they should be the favorite to represent the AL in the World Series for the next 2 years. Your delusional if you think the Kimbrel deal was worth an "A" type prospect. Dombrowski's trade grade D- Price was a disaster. Again, the coin could have landed you Cueto for cheaper dollars and thus given you with saved money, the ability to sign a legit #3 arm Dombrowski's free agent grade F Retaining Farrell? Hahaha F Disagreeing is not merely arguing, can you at least flesh out your side aka try a little.
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