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2016-2017 Red Sox Offseason (Non-Manager) Discussion
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Post by pokeefe363 on Dec 28, 2016 0:09:32 GMT -5
EE signing has helped cool the talk a bit but now we just need Bautista to sign somewhere so everyone will just drop it. They signed Moreland. There is a very slim chance that they sign anything outside of depth. Obviously, the Moreland signing ws a bit underwhelming, but they made the move when they did because they did because they werent willing to pay the price for any bigger upgrades. Between the pick compensation, and the fact that they already got Moreland, Bautista would have to be willing to take waaay under market value. How often do you see guys signed and traded in an offseason? The thing is that Bautista isn't signing anytime soon. He has no market and he's going to have to take a under market contract to even play next year with the draft pick attachment. You wouldn't need to even get rid of Moreland, just slide him to the bench where he probably should be to begin with. You wouldn't even need to DFA anyone on the roster with the 40 man roster being set at 39 with the Buchholz trade last week. Currently Bautista's market is Toronto maybe? Boston maybe? And who knows after that. He can DH, play first base, fill in at the outfield to give the outfielders a day off. There's no harm in signing Bautista other than the draft pick compensation and the lack of payroll mid-season for a trade. Other than that, he's a major upgrade over what the Sox have right now. Most of all, he wants to be here and win with the comments he made with his agent earlier in the offseason. It makes no sense to give up a 1st round pick for a 1-2 year deal for a DH only coming off an awful season at the age of 35. It would be one thing for Encarnacion who is coming off a good year, but Bautista isn't. On top of that, Moreland over Hanley is a rather large defensive upgrade. Hanley was significantly below average last year there and is getting older.
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Post by Coreno on Dec 28, 2016 1:01:10 GMT -5
Pushing Moreland to the bench means you have a really bad bench in terms of versatility.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 28, 2016 1:20:16 GMT -5
I don't think Bautista was awful at the plate at all last year. He had his nicks he had to miss time and play with but he still posted a solid triple slash.
I mean, he can't play the field at all but he can certainly still hit.
None of this is to say I support a move to go out and get him- I just disagree with this narrative that he's coming off of an awful season when we are discussing him as a DH-only guy. It was a down year by his recent standards but it was still pretty damn solid even if the average left a lot to be desired.
Plus him at Fenway is nice. But again, I'm gonna have to stop before I start thinking its a good idea to surrender a pick for a fossil who can't play the field
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2016 3:56:09 GMT -5
Pushing Moreland to the bench means you have a really bad bench in terms of versatility. Brock Holt solves 90% of the problem with anyone on the bench being non-versatile.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2016 4:11:09 GMT -5
The thing is that Bautista isn't signing anytime soon. He has no market and he's going to have to take a under market contract to even play next year with the draft pick attachment. You wouldn't need to even get rid of Moreland, just slide him to the bench where he probably should be to begin with. You wouldn't even need to DFA anyone on the roster with the 40 man roster being set at 39 with the Buchholz trade last week. Currently Bautista's market is Toronto maybe? Boston maybe? And who knows after that. He can DH, play first base, fill in at the outfield to give the outfielders a day off. There's no harm in signing Bautista other than the draft pick compensation and the lack of payroll mid-season for a trade. Other than that, he's a major upgrade over what the Sox have right now. Most of all, he wants to be here and win with the comments he made with his agent earlier in the offseason. It makes no sense to give up a 1st round pick for a 1-2 year deal for a DH only Throw out the word sense when it comes to talking about Dombrowski. All of his moves aren't really sense able, valuable, or geared towards a 5 year projection. Making the Chris Sale deal made no sense when you're trading your best position and pitching prospect for a pitcher in a rotation where you already had 6 starters. His moves are made with one objective and that's to win now. With that in mind- 2017 ZiPS Projections: Bautista: .252/.369/.499, .371 wOBA Moreland: .244/.304/.415, .307 wOBA Right now Bautista is a better option than Moreland and it's not even particularly close, even in 2017. I can guarantee anyone here that Dave Dombrowski won't be looking at the late first round pick as a deterrent to not signing Bautista. The only reason why he might not be able to sign him is because of the CBT. Ohh and Bautista can play first base and I'm sure he can be decent there too. He already has 47 games there. Maybe the Sox don't have enough funds to even be considered a option at this point, I'm not sure but the Clay Buchholz trade should open the door for a move like this if the Sox wanted to go to Bautista on a cheaper one or two year deal. Or maybe I'm completely underestimating his current lack of market later in the offseason. I'll be shocked if he gets anything more than 17.2 million for one year personally and I think he would take less to come to Boston and win. He has already came out and said it this offseason. Just to add one more thing, if the Sox are coming out and trying to win now and settle for a Moreland when there's better options for cheap this off-season, then that would be rather disappointing to say the least. First base is a important position defensively but it's not a position where I would want to use "run prevention" as a upgrade. It's a offensive position almost by design.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 28, 2016 5:56:06 GMT -5
Veteran slugger Jose Bautista is willing to take a one-year contract, according to Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports. There’s something of a catch, though: per the report, “he wants it to be at a higher value than the qualifying offer.”
It seems, then, that Bautista would need to see something greater than $17.2MM on an offer sheet for the 2017 season before he’s willing to give up his pursuit of a lengthier pact — at least at this stage. Notably, the report does not suggest that the organization has shown any movement on its part; at last check, Toronto had yet to indicate a willingness to exceed the value of the QO that it previously extended, and Bautista declined. As Passan puts it, “the next move is the Blue Jays’.” www.mlbtraderumors.com/jose-bautistaEven at $17.2m, we'd be over the cap. I'd prefer not to go there and I don't see any more likely salary dumps that would make it worth the upgrade. That doesn't even include the lost picks. Thanks but no thanks.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 28, 2016 12:30:17 GMT -5
If the Orioles' fans didn't hate him so much, he could have been the next Nelson Cruz/Mark Trumbo in Baltimore & hit 50 bombs there. No way he gets 17.2 mil anywhere. As Pedro said, he would be a huge upgrade over Moreland. Is it enough though to punt the pick & tickle the CBT? I'd do it, but only for a 2/22 deal max.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2016 12:34:34 GMT -5
They clearly are not going over the cap so this is kinda pointless.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 28, 2016 12:54:59 GMT -5
I get the impression that they are done adding to the team with the possible exception of a guy like Trevor Plouffe if he can be had for cheap on a 1 year deal. I am very interested to see where Bautista ends up though, if he absolutely refuses to take a 1 year deal for less than the QO he turned down he may not find a team until after the season starts.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2016 13:18:49 GMT -5
I get the impression that they are done adding to the team with the possible exception of a guy like Trevor Plouffe if he can be had for cheap on a 1 year deal. I am very interested to see where Bautista ends up though, if he absolutely refuses to take a 1 year deal for less than the QO he turned down he may not find a team until after the season starts. Yeah it's not even like it's up to Bautista on what he wants. It's what other teams are willing to offer at this point. If he doesn't want less than 17.2 million, then I guess see you in June maybe?
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Post by Coreno on Dec 28, 2016 13:52:25 GMT -5
Pushing Moreland to the bench means you have a really bad bench in terms of versatility. Brock Holt solves 90% of the problem with anyone on the bench being non-versatile. He really doesn't though. You cant rely on one guy to be your only ML depth at half of the positions.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2016 14:08:30 GMT -5
Brock Holt solves 90% of the problem with anyone on the bench being non-versatile. He really doesn't though. You cant rely on one guy to be your only ML depth at half of the positions. Well you could for a game or two if someone gets injured and then you can call up another outfielder type or infielder type like a Marco Hernandez.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 29, 2016 13:01:48 GMT -5
He really doesn't though. You cant rely on one guy to be your only ML depth at half of the positions. Well you could for a game or two if someone gets injured and then you can call up another outfielder type or infielder type like a Marco Hernandez. We have depth @ C & IF. My only fear is 1 injury to Beni, JBJ, or Betts throws a huge monkey wrench in the plans. There's literally no OF depth @ Pawt. Craig, Junior Lake, Rusney is it. That's pretty thin. While I know we can get help from the outcasts & trades, Joey Batts would almost eliminate that need.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 29, 2016 13:33:00 GMT -5
Well you could for a game or two if someone gets injured and then you can call up another outfielder type or infielder type like a Marco Hernandez. We have depth @ C & IF. My only fear is 1 injury to Beni, JBJ, or Betts throws a huge monkey wrench in the plans. There's literally no OF depth @ Pawt. Craig, Junior Lake, Rusney is it. That's pretty thin. While I know we can get help from the outcasts & trades, Joey Batts would almost eliminate that need. Yeah that's another reason why he's a great option. Depth. I know he looked bad out there defensively in the outfield but Bautista had a turf toe injury I believe that limited his mobility last year and could be the reason why he looked bad out there.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Dec 29, 2016 13:52:38 GMT -5
Plus, you go over the tax limit with payroll and do not get to reset the penalties to the lower level to give greater flexibility next winter and beyond....
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 29, 2016 13:58:49 GMT -5
Plus, you go over the tax limit with payroll and do not get to reset the penalties to the lower level to give greater flexibility next winter and beyond.... Not if you offer a reasonable 12-13 million dollar deal and traded a guy like Abad...that would put you 2-3 million under the threshold.
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 29, 2016 14:03:42 GMT -5
We don't need a team of all all-stars (or former all-stars).
Besides Bautista isn't a fit with Ortiz coming back in June
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 29, 2016 16:00:51 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on Dec 29, 2016 16:24:28 GMT -5
He really doesn't though. You cant rely on one guy to be your only ML depth at half of the positions. Well you could for a game or two if someone gets injured and then you can call up another outfielder type or infielder type like a Marco Hernandez. If it's possible, I actually agree with both of you. I think Holt gives the Sox extraordinary versatility, as he's serviceable just about anywhere but C, for reasonably extended stretches. However, it's clear that he wears down in a starting role, so he can't be leaned on too heavily. I like Hernandez (I think his bat has .800 OPS potential that's not that far off), and he's SS depth as well. So with those two, the team has some great options. But, they're also riddled with CIF questions, positions where neither Holt nor Hernandez provide adequate extended starting options, at least, offensively. And starting either means disaster should there be another extended injury. Given that, I think a 1b-only, roughly average-to-solid 1b who is there largely for his defense/platoon is really unpalatable (meaning Moreland if they signed Bautista). That's an expensive dead roster spot if they signed a big bat, given what would amount to no cap space. OTOH, Castillo is a terrific defensive option in the OF, so if he hits at all...who knows? I'd guess they'll do their best to keep him in AAA to avoid the cap hit, but at least he's some depth. Idk about Bautista. If they could do it cheaply enough to stay under the cap with 4-5M (trade or DFA Abad, please) in reserve, I kind of agree that...well, they've already gone all-in. There is no 5-year plan. It's win in 2017 or '18, or bust. The minor league system is pretty much in tatters, and it's unlikely that the 26th pick would make a significant dent in that. Bautista would probably hit (very) well in Fenway. And he'd have Beltran-like value when the inevitable partial blow-up (or ascendancy of Devers) occurrs in 2018. I really have huge concerns re: the CIF depth, and depth in general beyond the rotation. I get the sense that DD does too, and intends on leaving himself a little leeway $-wise, which means it isn't happening unless it's a Nelson Cruz situation.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 29, 2016 16:29:01 GMT -5
We don't need a team of all all-stars (or former all-stars). Besides Bautista isn't a fit with Ortiz coming back in June Please, please, PLEASE let this be real. Papi come back! (You can blame it all...on...me)
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 29, 2016 16:52:24 GMT -5
We don't need a team of all all-stars (or former all-stars). Besides Bautista isn't a fit with Ortiz coming back in June Please, please, PLEASE let this be real. Papi come back! (You can blame it all...on...me) I've been saying the same thing for a month half jokingly, but hoping that it isn't a joke.
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Post by bruinsfan94 on Dec 29, 2016 18:56:28 GMT -5
What, no faith in Moreland or Pablo? Really hope the Red Sox add another bat. Not asking for someone like Trumbo, but would love them to add Carter, Alverez, Ploufe, Napoli or another cheaper option. A bench of Young, Holt, CV or Leon, and one of those guys would be great. ( Or for someone like Napoli, Moreland on the bench).
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 29, 2016 19:02:44 GMT -5
Yeah but I want a WWE style comeback. I want the Red Sox to be facing the Yankees and it's the bottom of the 9th and the game is tied and Farrell calls a pitch hitter and THE LIGHTS GO OUT and there's a lot of fireworks and Papi just storms the field and hits a walk off HR on the first pitch and the ball travels so hard that it goes back in time and hit Grady Little in the head in 2003 and we win that World Series.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 29, 2016 20:03:40 GMT -5
We don't need a team of all all-stars (or former all-stars). Besides Bautista isn't a fit with Ortiz coming back in JuneStop it.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 30, 2016 0:09:40 GMT -5
Red Sox Stats @redsoxstats 1h1 hour ago Hazen is interested in trading for Christian Vazquez or Blake Swihart according to the Arizona Republic, but their sources say Sox unlikely.
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