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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 5, 2016 14:14:33 GMT -5
Not so much Pa(u)ncho...more like Cisco.
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Post by larrycook on Nov 6, 2016 0:21:43 GMT -5
If sandavol plays like he is capable of playing, he has a shot at comeback player of the year next season.
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Post by jmei on Nov 9, 2016 12:18:15 GMT -5
I moved some 1B/DH posts to their own thread.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 14, 2016 11:52:27 GMT -5
I hope Pablo can go back to hitting LHP well enough. This would solve a lot of the issues of whether the Sox need to find a right handed complimentary for third base. I wouldn't want to waste money trying to find that if Pablo can go back to hitting LHP.
This guy was a decent hitter versus LHP at one point in time.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 25, 2016 18:53:56 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on Nov 25, 2016 19:27:23 GMT -5
The "unload him for whatever and sign Turner" idea is an interesting one. Obviously the financial specifics are what make or break it. But I like Turner's odds of being worth $18M a year over Panda's. Of course, if it's a salary dump for an additional $10M a year...IDK if Turner approaches being a $28M player. I suppose the question is, will Turner's contract still be moveable once Moncada/Devers is/are ready?
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Post by rookie13 on Nov 25, 2016 19:55:45 GMT -5
Personally I would love just about any trade that gets Pablo off this team. Include salary, include a decent prospect, I don't care. The Sox have plenty of options, and honestly, for most of this last season I forgot Pablo was even on the roster.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 25, 2016 20:08:45 GMT -5
Personally I would love just about any trade that gets Pablo off this team. Include salary, include a decent prospect, I don't care. The Sox have plenty of options, and honestly, for most of this last season I forgot Pablo was even on the roster. These are the same type of posts people were saying about Hanley last year and boom he became one of the most valuable pieces of the team. I can see Pablo becoming a valuable piece next year. People easily forget about a players potential and ceiling, even if he hasn't reached it in quite a while.
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Post by rookie13 on Nov 25, 2016 20:24:57 GMT -5
Well I wasn't a supporter of getting rid of Hanley;however, I didn't like the Sandoval signing from the minute it happened. That's just my opinion and I could be wrong, and he could still be a positive contribution to this team. I personally don't think he will be, and I think the Sox are better off without him. I hope he proves me wrong, as I see no chance he isn't playing for the Sox next year.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 25, 2016 21:07:59 GMT -5
Personally I would love just about any trade that gets Pablo off this team. Include salary, include a decent prospect, I don't care. The Sox have plenty of options, and honestly, for most of this last season I forgot Pablo was even on the roster. These are the same type of posts people were saying about Hanley last year and boom he became one of the most valuable pieces of the team. I can see Pablo becoming a valuable piece next year. People easily forget about a players potential and ceiling, even if he hasn't reached it in quite a while. I think Hanley and Sandoval always get lumped together and unfairly. Hanley has always been a plus hitter, one of the best in the game. Sandoval has been above average and declining. I always felt, if healthy and not in LF, Hanley would rediscover his stroke and bounce back offensively. Maybe Pablo does that if he keeps the weight off? But how long has he ever done that for? Hanley has a place on this team for the next few years. It's not hard to see him playing 1b most of this year and perhaps giving way to Sam Travis and sliding over to the DH spot. Sandoval makes sense short-term until Moncada is ready, which should be at some point this year. Moncada will be the 3b until Devers, assuming (I hope) that he's not dealt, would take over 3b and push Moncada either into the OF freeing up JBJ for a trade if need be or back to 2b should Pedroia decline and/or get injured. If the Red Sox can save half of that money freeing up about $9 to $10 million/year then that would better allow them to get the DH they want and the setup man they want. Otherwise the Sox will begin the year with Shaw (or Holt) at 3b, Hanley at 1b, and Pablo DHing. And neither Shaw or Holt hit well enough to be a 3b you'd want starting. Pablo doesn't really hit well enough to be a DH. Honestly I didn't like the Sandoval signing when they made it and would be quite happy to see him return to San Fran.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 25, 2016 22:08:35 GMT -5
I can see the Sox trading Pablo by 2018. Right now it just makes zero sense, like it did with Hanley before last season. The Sox need to reestablish at least a little value to make it at least plausible to make it a realistic possibility.
Sure Pablo can keep declining and turn into a butterball again and be absolutely useless but the Sox have to take the chance of at least giving him one more shot if he shows up to camp in shape. If he doesn't well the Sox might have to DH him or DFA him anyways. I can't see any team taking him for anything less than pennies on the dollar.
I know people hate this guy (including myself when he showed up so out of shape) as much as I hated Julio Lugo back in the day (because he was so awful) but there's only one way of maybe making this situation better and that's by playing him. Even if you risk winning for a month to experiment to see what it looks like and I hate saying that. I hate risking wins but it's too much money to mess with to not try at least.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 25, 2016 22:53:45 GMT -5
The "unload him for whatever and sign Turner" idea is an interesting one. Obviously the financial specifics are what make or break it. But I like Turner's odds of being worth $18M a year over Panda's. Of course, if it's a salary dump for an additional $10M a year...IDK if Turner approaches being a $28M player. I suppose the question is, will Turner's contract still be moveable once Moncada/Devers is/are ready? Right now the Sox would have to pay 70-80% of Pablo's entire contract considering his value is at a all-time low. Think 30-35 million a year for Turner in your scenario.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 26, 2016 0:16:51 GMT -5
I can see the Sox trading Pablo by 2018. Right now it just makes zero sense, like it did with Hanley before last season. The Sox need to reestablish at least a little value to make it at least plausible to make it a realistic possibility. Sure Pablo can keep declining and turn into a butterball again and be absolutely useless but the Sox have to take the chance of at least giving him one more shot if he shows up to camp in shape. If he doesn't well the Sox might have to DH him or DFA him anyways. I can't see any team taking him for anything less than pennies on the dollar. I know people hate this guy (including myself when he showed up so out of shape) as much as I hated Julio Lugo back in the day (because he was so awful) but there's only one way of maybe making this situation better and that's by playing him. Even if you risk winning for a month to experiment to see what it looks like and I hate saying that. I hate risking wins but it's too much money to mess with to not try at least. I think if Moncada winds up healthy by spring training and is ready by some point in July, you're talking about squeaking by 3 or 4 months with either Holt or more likely Shaw at 3b. If you're able to save a significant portion of Sandoval's salary and convert what's saved into an upgrade in a different area of need it could be worth it. By 2018, yes, the need for Sandoval isn't too likely, but I think the money saved and reapplied elsewhere for an upgrade can make up for the downgrade from Sandoval to Shaw or Holt. And this doesn't rule out the possibility of a stopgap like Valbuena either.
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Post by telson13 on Nov 26, 2016 0:23:59 GMT -5
The "unload him for whatever and sign Turner" idea is an interesting one. Obviously the financial specifics are what make or break it. But I like Turner's odds of being worth $18M a year over Panda's. Of course, if it's a salary dump for an additional $10M a year...IDK if Turner approaches being a $28M player. I suppose the question is, will Turner's contract still be moveable once Moncada/Devers is/are ready? Right now the Sox would have to pay 70-80% of Pablo's entire contract considering his value is at a all-time low. Think 30-35 million a year for Turner in your scenario. Reference? Or are you just estimating? I don't see them paying 70-80% under any circumstance, unless they got useful prospects back. They have a need at 3b, and you're talking about 40 of 55M owed Sandoval, which is about 5M a year (edit: meaning, the team getting him is paying $5M a year). So basically, a half-time 0.5-1 WAR player. I don't think DD views him that way just yet. I will say, Dombrowski dropped Damian Easley awfully quickly on big money, so it's certainly possible.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 26, 2016 1:01:51 GMT -5
Right now the Sox would have to pay 70-80% of Pablo's entire contract considering his value is at a all-time low. Think 30-35 million a year for Turner in your scenario. Reference? Or are you just estimating? I don't see them paying 70-80% under any circumstance, unless they got useful prospects back. If you're not paying for 70-80% of the contract, then you're not trading him. Unless the Sox threw in some useful prospects, then maybe you could get trade him and include less dollars. How else are you supposed to trade arguably the worst player in baseball two years ago coming off major shoulder surgery last year?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 26, 2016 1:09:45 GMT -5
I can see the Sox trading Pablo by 2018. Right now it just makes zero sense, like it did with Hanley before last season. The Sox need to reestablish at least a little value to make it at least plausible to make it a realistic possibility. Sure Pablo can keep declining and turn into a butterball again and be absolutely useless but the Sox have to take the chance of at least giving him one more shot if he shows up to camp in shape. If he doesn't well the Sox might have to DH him or DFA him anyways. I can't see any team taking him for anything less than pennies on the dollar. I know people hate this guy (including myself when he showed up so out of shape) as much as I hated Julio Lugo back in the day (because he was so awful) but there's only one way of maybe making this situation better and that's by playing him. Even if you risk winning for a month to experiment to see what it looks like and I hate saying that. I hate risking wins but it's too much money to mess with to not try at least. I think if Moncada winds up healthy by spring training and is ready by some point in July, you're talking about squeaking by 3 or 4 months with either Holt or more likely Shaw at 3b. If you're able to save a significant portion of Sandoval's salary and convert what's saved into an upgrade in a different area of need it could be worth it. By 2018, yes, the need for Sandoval isn't too likely, but I think the money saved and reapplied elsewhere for an upgrade can make up for the downgrade from Sandoval to Shaw or Holt. And this doesn't rule out the possibility of a stopgap like Valbuena either. You're just not going to save much by trading Sandoval unless you're looking for pennies on the dollar right now. I do like Valbuena as a possibility however depending on the years and dollars of course. I have a feeling Valbuena will get some dollars because of the lack of third base market this year though.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 26, 2016 3:35:13 GMT -5
Reference? Or are you just estimating? I don't see them paying 70-80% under any circumstance, unless they got useful prospects back. If you're not paying for 70-80% of the contract, then you're not trading him. Unless the Sox threw in some useful prospects, then maybe you could get trade him and include less dollars. How else are you supposed to trade arguably the worst player in baseball two years ago coming off major shoulder surgery last year? Did you notice Andrew Cashner got a 10 million deal? He was coming off a bad year, but very few starters ment he got a huge deal. There are almost no 3B on market. So I could see the Giants a team that knows Sandoval better than anyone taking a 3 year 27 to 30 million risk if he's in shape.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 26, 2016 3:38:43 GMT -5
If you're not paying for 70-80% of the contract, then you're not trading him. Unless the Sox threw in some useful prospects, then maybe you could get trade him and include less dollars. How else are you supposed to trade arguably the worst player in baseball two years ago coming off major shoulder surgery last year? Did you notice Andrew Cashner got a 10 million deal? He was coming off a bad year, but very few starters ment he got a huge deal. There are almost no 3B on market. So I could see the Giants a team that knows Sandoval better than anyone taking a 3 year 27 to 30 million risk if he's in shape. Andrew Cashner was also a starting pitcher and wasn't the worst player in baseball two years ago and not coming off a major shoulder surgery last year. You're pretty much in the wishful thinking group here.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 26, 2016 3:53:34 GMT -5
Did you notice Andrew Cashner got a 10 million deal? He was coming off a bad year, but very few starters ment he got a huge deal. There are almost no 3B on market. So I could see the Giants a team that knows Sandoval better than anyone taking a 3 year 27 to 30 million risk if he's in shape. Andrew Cashner was also a starting pitcher and wasn't the worst player in baseball two years ago and not coming off a major shoulder surgery last year. You're pretty much in the wishful thinking group here. Cashner pitched just over 130 innings and was -.7 bwars, that's just as bad as Sandoval's 2015 season. Sandoval has also been a much better player over his career than Cashner. I mean if you had to bet on who will have a higher war next year who would you pick? I'm going with Sandoval and all projection systems feel the same way. It might be a little wishful thinking, but if one team would do it, it's the Giants. They knew how to keep him ready to play.
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Post by costpet on Nov 26, 2016 7:58:03 GMT -5
If the Giants agree to a 50-50 deal on the salary and throw in a decent reliever, I would jump all over it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 26, 2016 8:12:49 GMT -5
There's also the big question of what Sandoval's future might look like. If you think he will either gain weight again as is his history or think he's in decline, if you get a chance to get rid of a good portion of his contract, you take it.
I'd hate to see the Red Sox stuck with him next season after a 2nd bad year. With 1 bad year, teams are willing to hope for rebound, but with another bad year it gets tougher and the longer he goes the less value he has for the Sox. Sooner or later Moncada will be ready and then Devers down the road. The Red Sox have two stop gap options that aren't overly appealing but aren't much worse than what they received from Sandoval two years ago.
The flip side is that Sandoval stays thin enough and has a reasonably productive season and actually raises his value.
I guess it comes down to how you see him. I personally don't trust him to keep off the weight and I think he is in decline, but others views can differ. Let's face it - if Sandoval is in shape and can replicate what he's been he can give them a serviceable to average or maybe even above average 3b, which is better than what they got on the roster right now, but I think that time is fleeting. Despite his rough initiation I do believe in Moncada.
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Post by Guidas on Nov 26, 2016 11:24:02 GMT -5
If the Giants agree to a 50-50 deal on the salary and throw in a decent reliever, I would jump all over it. This was my exact thought when I heard about the report. It is a position of need, and unless Shaw can address the holes in his swing, it will be a position of need for a year, I don't think Moncada is near ready and may need a full year in AAA, or a bit more to work on his K rate and pitch recognition, and I actually like Devers better long term at 3rd with Moncada finding a spot elsewhere on the field. The stop-gap is a bit of a puzzle but should be relatively easy to find. They can even start with Shaw and pray Moncada figures it out more quickly that I or some others believe with Holt as a short term back up. Much more than 50% and the calculus becomes a bit more interesting. How much are you willing to eat? Given the risks and that it wasn't Dombrowski's guy I can see paying$29-30 million to free up that much salary over the next 4 years, but much more than that and I think they wait and see if he can bounce back, see how Moncada develops and perhaps move Sandoval at the July deadline or next off-season (when the 3rd baseman class is about as unimpressive as it is this year).
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 26, 2016 12:10:22 GMT -5
Personally I would love just about any trade that gets Pablo off this team. Include salary, include a decent prospect, I don't care. The Sox have plenty of options, and honestly, for most of this last season I forgot Pablo was even on the roster. These are the same type of posts people were saying about Hanley last year and boom he became one of the most valuable pieces of the team. I can see Pablo becoming a valuable piece next year. People easily forget about a players potential and ceiling, even if he hasn't reached it in quite a while. And it's also the same type of posts that people were saying about someone like Josh Hamilton who never got better.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 26, 2016 12:14:33 GMT -5
Andrew Cashner was also a starting pitcher and wasn't the worst player in baseball two years ago and not coming off a major shoulder surgery last year. You're pretty much in the wishful thinking group here. Cashner pitched just over 130 innings and was -.7 bwars, that's just as bad as Sandoval's 2015 season. Sandoval has also been a much better player over his career than Cashner. I mean if you had to bet on who will have a higher war next year who would you pick? I'm going with Sandoval and all projection systems feel the same way. It might be a little wishful thinking, but if one team would do it, it's the Giants. They knew how to keep him ready to play. Teams aren't looking at other contracts and comparing them to Pablo's like you are. There's a reason why Cashner only got a one year deal and Texas obviously overpaid for it because of the bad market. You're not getting rid Sandoval for anything more than 3-5 million a year off your payroll or less. That's about all a team should be willing to pay for this guy right now.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 26, 2016 12:16:15 GMT -5
These are the same type of posts people were saying about Hanley last year and boom he became one of the most valuable pieces of the team. I can see Pablo becoming a valuable piece next year. People easily forget about a players potential and ceiling, even if he hasn't reached it in quite a while. And it's also the same type of posts that people were saying about someone like Josh Hamilton who never got better. Well Hamilton was also going through a lot more problems than just baseball at the time and was approaching his mid 30's with a broken down body because of all the past drug prior use in his past. Hamilton was a special case on his own.
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