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Post by jdb on Jul 22, 2013 12:52:25 GMT -5
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Post by huskies15 on Aug 28, 2013 20:06:52 GMT -5
Barnes getting promoted to AAA. I'm a little bit surprised but for the most part I like his K/9 and I believe that he will become a good part of our rotation or a valuable trade chip. I played against Barnes in high school and played for the same AAU program as him, and that may bias me. I have seen him first hand and his fastball was one of two that I thought was unhittable. The other was that of Devin Burke who flamed out a bit at Duke, but I wish the best for Barnes and I root extra hard for him to make it with the Sox.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Aug 28, 2013 21:32:39 GMT -5
I'm surprised, too, but we're really only talking about a few starts here. He was going to start next season in AAA anyway, so I'm sure the Red Sox wanted him to get a small taste of what the next level is like before heading into the offseason.
Barnes has had a really interesting season. His ERA/WHIP and walk numbers aren't great, but his strikeout rate is still terrific. He's also had several games - at least when I've followed - that he appears to have been struck by some bad luck, although he's given up plenty of hard contact, too. (For people who have seen Barnes this season, has he getting hit hard, been unlucky or a combination?)
In any event, next season is obviously a big one for Barnes. He'll be going on 24 when the year begins and in his third full season of minor league ball. If he has a future as a mid-rotation starter, we'll most likely see him turn some sort of corner next season. (Otherwise, Barnes still has some upside as a reliever, but that's obviously not best case.)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 28, 2013 22:21:43 GMT -5
Well, this technically costs him a regular season start, as he'd have started tonight and the finale for Portland, but instead will just get one start in Pawtucket, but with Pawtucket likely playoff-bound, he'll probably get that second start and maybe a third.
Good opportunity to get him innings in a playoff situation.
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Post by Kevin Pereira on Aug 30, 2013 11:54:55 GMT -5
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Post by jmei on Aug 30, 2013 12:08:48 GMT -5
Great to hear that his curveball flashed at times last night. He really needs that third pitch so hitters can't just sit on the fastball.
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Post by jchang on Aug 30, 2013 21:25:22 GMT -5
Considering the difficulty other recent high prospects have had on reaching Portland, Barnes 2013 season is a success.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 1, 2013 11:06:42 GMT -5
This season at Portland has led me to believe that Barnes' secondary stuff needs tightening up. Hitters sat dead red with two strikes and he served it up. Unfortunately he also left a lot of them up.
I think his change up has gone from awful to decent and that helped his second half out a lot.
If next season he gets the same kind of improvement out of that pitch and sharpens the curve ball, he should be ready to help Boston in the second half.
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Post by brendan98 on Sept 24, 2013 15:05:59 GMT -5
Is anyone else concerned that Barnes' innings pitched decreased from 2012 to 2013? I would have thought that Barnes would throw about 140 innings in 2013, after pitching 120 innings in 2012, but he wound up with 113 innings pitch in 2013, in 25 starts. Is this because he failed to pitch deep into games in a quite a few of his outings in 2013? I think that this could really limit any impact he might make in Boston next year, if he performs well in AAA.
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Sept 25, 2013 12:16:20 GMT -5
Barnes also had 9.1 IP in the playoffs, so that puts him up to 122.2 for the season. Still not really an increase, but he did hit 120 again.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 25, 2013 13:37:55 GMT -5
I don't think his innings total is going to be what keeps him from having an impact in Boston next year ... we'll all be lucky if he makes a couple of spot starts with any success. I think Barnes is a 2015 factor, and some form of extreme depth next year. I mean, hopefully RDLR, Webster, Workman, and Ranaudo are all ahead of him next year on the depth chart, although a couple of them (RDLR and Workman) may be in the bullpen.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Sept 25, 2013 13:48:33 GMT -5
Barnes gave up a lot more hits and walks (WHIP of 1.053 last year, 1.438 this year), so he probably threw a lot more pitches this year. I assume the Sox know this exactly, and are not working out his workload on the back of an envelope. Clicking around on BRef, it looks like 1070 pitches last year and 2164 in the regular season this year, but I may have done that wrong.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 25, 2013 20:32:56 GMT -5
Barnes gave up a lot more hits and walks (WHIP of 1.053 last year, 1.438 this year), so he probably threw a lot more pitches this year. I assume the Sox know this exactly, and are not working out his workload on the back of an envelope. Clicking around on BRef, it looks like 1070 pitches last year and 2164 in the regular season this year, but I may have done that wrong. The teams he was on last year didn't track pitches. The "pitch count" for those starts should equal something like (3*K's + 4*BB's + 1*BIP) C'mon dude, did you REALLY think he threw 1070 pitches in 113 innings? That's less than 10 an inning!
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Sept 25, 2013 20:42:41 GMT -5
Barnes gave up a lot more hits and walks (WHIP of 1.053 last year, 1.438 this year), so he probably threw a lot more pitches this year. I assume the Sox know this exactly, and are not working out his workload on the back of an envelope. Clicking around on BRef, it looks like 1070 pitches last year and 2164 in the regular season this year, but I may have done that wrong. The teams he was on last year didn't track pitches. The "pitch count" for those starts should equal something like (3*K's + 4*BB's + 1*BIP) C'mon dude, did you REALLY think he threw 1070 pitches in 113 innings? That's less than 10 an inning! Ack, actual knowledge always trumps poking around on the internet. But if he pitched the same number of innings and had a lot more baserunners he probably threw a lot more pitches, so his workload grew from 2012 to 2013, and can grow more in 2014, right?.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 25, 2013 21:26:11 GMT -5
Batters faced was 480 last year, 500 this year, so probably not by much.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 26, 2013 6:50:20 GMT -5
Batters faced was 480 last year, 500 this year, so probably not by much. But more encouraging was the fact that he did not appear to "hit the wall" after 90 innings or so this season, as he did in the past two seasons.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Sept 26, 2013 7:09:22 GMT -5
Barnes also pitched much better In the second half.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Nov 4, 2013 9:23:36 GMT -5
Rather than an overall evaluation of Matt Barnes or a general assessment of where he fits in the organization's plans, I have only a very specific question about him. Given the evaluation that has just gone up on him in the Review series, why isn't there a serious push or expectation that he would go to the bullpen? It seems that, with the struggles he has with secondary offerings, he profiles somewhat as a next-generation Bard (minus the peripheral issues), whose best option might be to try to hone one good secondary pitch and move to the pen as a setup/closer type.
Barnes is apparently going to start the season in the Pawtucket rotation. But is he really going to be capable of sustaining consistent success at the major league level as a starter with the quality level of the full arsenal currently at his command? It feels to me as if he's moving through the system faster than his development warrants, considering the pitch quality he will need to be a top-flight major league starter.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Nov 4, 2013 9:44:52 GMT -5
I think it's too early. He has the stamina and delivery to maintain his stuff deep into games, so it's not a situation where his fastball plays up out of the bullpen. And he still has some time to develop his offspeed pitches. They were better over the course of the year.
I do worry about the pace of his development, though. I like guys who have the "ability to manipulate the ball" as the Sox kept saying about Buchholz. I think there's a certain level of fine-motor skills that separate the guys who can pitch from the guys who can just throw hard. Still time on Barnes, for sure, but I worry a little bit that he doesn't have that level of fine-motor control over the baseball.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 4, 2013 10:48:27 GMT -5
This season was not a good one for Barnes, but I think it's too early to write him off as a starter at the major league level ... especially since he showed at least some flashes at the end of the season. I also think it's pretty encouraging that the Red Sox still promoted him at the end of the year.
At UConn, Barnes was a relatively late bloomer - he didn't really come on strong until the second half of his sophomore season, before having an absolutely dominant junior year. While his fastball has always been well ahead of his offspeed stuff, he's proven to be able to pick up secondary pitches pretty quickly.
While I don't think it's fair to attribute all his struggles to him "working on stuff," it's tough to judge a guy in the minor leagues based purely on his numbers (not saying anyone on here is doing that). We don't know how much he was being told to work on certain things, new pitches, etc. At his age, he has less time to perfect his arsenal than a guy like Ranaudo, but I'm still willing to give Barnes another year as a starter before labeling him a future bullpen arm.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 4, 2013 10:55:05 GMT -5
The thing with Barnes is it doesn't matter at this point. When a guy with his stuff has the "chance" to be a starter, you let him work that way until the service clock forces your hand to make a switch. He's way more valuable to the organization as a starter in the minors for several reasons including, but not limited to the following:
- Trade value of a starter or potential starter is WAAAAAAAAAY higher than a reliever
- Starting gives him more opportunity to work on his secondary pitches, which will make him a better relief pitcher down the road if he ends up in that role
He's not on the 40 man roster and doesn't need to be added to it so he's not burning options, therefore you stay patient and let things play out. You can always convert someone to a relief role during the year if the big league squad needs it, but you can't convert them to a starting role.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 4, 2013 11:15:40 GMT -5
Granted Barnes was up and down, but I honestly believe with another year of polish he will be a solid starter. He "grew" a lot this year as a "pitcher". The year before it was too easy too fast for him. He really didn't have to develop his curve or change-up to dominant. This last season he was hit over the head with the idea that he HAS too be able to throw his secondary pitches for quality strikes.
Now if we have this same conversation a year from now, maybe he and the organization may have to consider plan B, but I think we will see a more dominant Matt Barnes in 2014 in Pawtucket.
Can't wait to watch that AAA rotation next season!
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Nov 4, 2013 11:35:50 GMT -5
Rather than an overall evaluation of Matt Barnes or a general assessment of where he fits in the organization's plans, I have only a very specific question about him. Given the evaluation that has just gone up on him in the Review series, why isn't there a serious push or expectation that he would go to the bullpen? It seems that, with the struggles he has with secondary offerings, he profiles somewhat as a next-generation Bard (minus the peripheral issues), whose best option might be to try to hone one good secondary pitch and move to the pen as a setup/closer type. ... Bard walked 78 guys in 75 innings in his one minor league year as a starter. Comparing Barnes to him is like saying Cecchini's so-far-unspectacular power is like Derrick Gibson's.
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Post by taftreign on Nov 4, 2013 12:43:50 GMT -5
Personally I believe Barnes will be best suited to the bullpen. I really like Barnes potential and hope he can put it all together but I worry about his secondaries. I would consider him near the top of the young arms whom I would most likely include in a trade package assuming other organizations believe he can be a solid 3,4 starter in their rotation. He should hold solid value. As for expectations this season I can see him follow a Workman path in which he starts in the rotation but as the season moves along convert to the pen to prep as a 7th, 8th inning arm for the stretch run in Boston.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 4, 2013 13:10:56 GMT -5
I'd say he gets at least one more season as a starter before a bullpen conversion is seriously considered. But yes, it's something that seems considerably more likely than it did a year ago.
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