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Post by jimed14 on Jan 28, 2018 10:17:20 GMT -5
The Red Sox simply cannot afford to make any more big trades. You absolutely need Groome and Chavis in case something disastrous happens like Xander tearing his ACL in July while they're in first place.
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Jose Abreu
Jan 28, 2018 10:40:51 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 10:40:51 GMT -5
The Red Sox simply cannot afford to make any more big trades. You absolutely need Groome and Chavis in case something disastrous happens like Xander tearing his ACL in July while they're in first place. I agree I wouldn't want to give up any of the top four prospects in the Red Sox system.And for the reason you give can definitely happen and you need Blue Chip prospects for the prices are higher at that time. June and July brings the draft and the international signing. The Sox could replace lower level players like Hernandez Raudes Thompson Castellanos and Suarez. The Red Sox need a player like Abreu
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Post by wrangler713 on Jan 28, 2018 14:57:22 GMT -5
Here is my thinking on my offer Think of it like this, would you take Alex Call, Jameson Fisher, and Luiz Martinez from the white sox for JBJ? Thats kind of the same offering you're giving up.
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Jose Abreu
Jan 28, 2018 18:51:29 GMT -5
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Jan 28, 2018 18:51:29 GMT -5
The Red Sox simply cannot afford to make any more big trades. You absolutely need Groome and Chavis in case something disastrous happens like Xander tearing his ACL in July while they're in first place. I agree I wouldn't want to give up any of the top four prospects in the Red Sox system.And for the reason you give can definitely happen and you need Blue Chip prospects for the prices are higher at that time. June and July brings the draft and the international signing. The Sox could replace lower level players like Hernandez Raudes Thompson Castellanos and Suarez. The Red Sox need a player like Abreu Yes, the Red Sox could potentially replace lower level players like Hernandez Raudes Thompson etc through the draft and international free agency.... which tells you all you need to know about their quality. Why would the White Sox want players that they could easily get in the draft, etc? Your logic seems to be this: we don’t need these players, so let’s give them to the White Sox for a really good player because the White Sox really need our bottom (medium) tier players more than we do. And very rarely does that logic ever hold up, although Miami is doing everything in their power to disprove that. Simply put, if you want abreu you have to willing to give up one or two of our top-three prospects, which I’m not willing to do.
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Jose Abreu
Jan 28, 2018 20:21:46 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 20:21:46 GMT -5
Here is my thinking on my offer Think of it like this, would you take Alex Call, Jameson Fisher, and Luiz Martinez from the white sox for JBJ? Thats kind of the same offering you're giving up. Where's the rest of my post.It's missing the part where where we take James Shields contract and possibly Joakim Soria.
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Jose Abreu
Jan 28, 2018 20:24:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 20:24:10 GMT -5
I agree I wouldn't want to give up any of the top four prospects in the Red Sox system.And for the reason you give can definitely happen and you need Blue Chip prospects for the prices are higher at that time. June and July brings the draft and the international signing. The Sox could replace lower level players like Hernandez Raudes Thompson Castellanos and Suarez. The Red Sox need a player like Abreu Yes, the Red Sox could potentially replace lower level players like Hernandez Raudes Thompson etc through the draft and international free agency.... which tells you all you need to know about their quality. Why would the White Sox want players that they could easily get in the draft, etc? Your logic seems to be this: we don’t need these players, so let’s give them to the White Sox for a really good player because the White Sox really need our bottom (medium) tier players more than we do. And very rarely does that logic ever hold up, although Miami is doing everything in their power to disprove that. Simply put, if you want abreu you have to willing to give up one or two of our top-three prospects, which I’m not willing to do. Read my previous post to where I say that we're going to take James Shields contract and possibly Joakim Soria in the deal also.
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Jose Abreu
Jan 28, 2018 20:44:32 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 20:44:32 GMT -5
Darwinzon Hernandez is ranked number 6 in baseball America's Red Sox Top 10 Prospects for 2018. Baseball America has Kervin Suarez best athlete in the system. Ty Buttrey is a major league ready arm especially for the Chicago White Sox. Okay Cedrola is not in the top 10 yet but there's a lot of talk about him right now. It's easy to drop a loaf on a proposed deal .But but all's I hear is oh I'm not going to spend six years a hundred and seventy million dollars on JDM oh I'm not going to give my top prospects up on any players oh but we need a power bat in our lineup.
Here you go; Sox get Abreu and Shields(Sheilds is old 21 million next year but the San Diego Padres pay 10 million of that) White Sox get Darwinzon Hernandez Alex Sherff Cole Brannen Ty Buttrey
About about replacing players through the draft and the international signing period yes we could replace the Thompsons the Hernandezs but also the way the Red Sox draft is they wait for a very good player to drop to him Houck Scherff Groome Chavis Kopech Marrero.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 29, 2018 2:39:15 GMT -5
Darwinzon Hernandez is ranked number 6 in baseball America's Red Sox Top 10 Prospects for 2018. Baseball America has Kervin Suarez best athlete in the system. Ty Buttrey is a major league ready arm especially for the Chicago White Sox. Okay Cedrola is not in the top 10 yet but there's a lot of talk about him right now. It's easy to drop a loaf on a proposed deal .But but all's I hear is oh I'm not going to spend six years a hundred and seventy million dollars on JDM oh I'm not going to give my top prospects up on any players oh but we need a power bat in our lineup. Here you go; Sox get Abreu and Shields(Sheilds is old 21 million next year but the San Diego Padres pay 10 million of that) White Sox get Darwinzon Hernandez Alex Sherff Cole Brannen Ty Buttrey About about replacing players through the draft and the international signing period yes we could replace the Thompsons the Hernandezs but also the way the Red Sox draft is they wait for a very good player to drop to him Houck Scherff Groome Chavis Kopech Marrero. The White Sox aren't looking for a salary dump. They're nowhere near the luxury tax. Their payroll isn't too heavy for them. They are not giving their best player who is cost controlled away for a bunch of lottery tickets. Honestly, would you if you were the White Sox GM? What deal did they make where they traded a quality player did they not get a highly rated top prospect back? The answer is they didn't. The White Sox aren't making that deal. I even doubt that the Red Sox are. They're at 203 million or so. They're not adding Abreu's 13 million and then adding another 20 million on top of that. That's like paying Abreu 33 million and clogging up a roster spot with Shields. It just doesn't make sense. If you were the White Sox GM do you honestly tell me you wouldn't demand Groome and Chavis and others for Abreu? The White Sox would like win, too, and they're not that far away from doing so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 6:58:12 GMT -5
White Sox get Xander Bogaerts Eduardo Rodriguez Darwinzon Hernandez Sam Travis Brian Johnson
Red Sox get Jose Abreu+ player to be named later Sox sign Eduardo Nunez 3/25.5m to replace Bogarts
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 29, 2018 7:37:12 GMT -5
Nunez isn't a major league short stop. He's really bad defensively. And that's a pretty insanely huge overpay.
When it comes down to it, I cannot think of a single trade scenario that the White Sox would even consider accepting that I'd want to make. I wouldn't trade Xander for Abreu straight up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 8:38:33 GMT -5
Nunez isn't a major league short stop. He's really bad defensively. And that's a pretty insanely huge overpay. When it comes down to it, I cannot think of a single trade scenario that the White Sox would even consider accepting that I'd want to make. I wouldn't trade Xander for Abreu straight up. Overpay? Who's the player to be named later? Right now you have Hanley Ramirez and Pablo Sandoval's salary which are insanely huge burdens. Somewhere sometime the Red Sox have to pay a price to straighten this mess out. And IMO that's why Dombrowski is sitting on his hands right now waiting to see what the best deal and best salaries to go along to help the team this year and in the future.And in my posts I always leave room for discussion that's why I put a player to be named later or I put a player as a salary dump. Discussions.I won't argue or detract on this Forum.We all have our opinions speculations and that's what this site is built on. Sox draft a player and in somebody's opinion they speculate five years down the road how that player is going to turn out.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 29, 2018 8:42:53 GMT -5
Nunez isn't a major league short stop. He's really bad defensively. And that's a pretty insanely huge overpay. When it comes down to it, I cannot think of a single trade scenario that the White Sox would even consider accepting that I'd want to make. I wouldn't trade Xander for Abreu straight up. Overpay? Who's the player to be named later? Right now you have Hanley Ramirez and Pablo Sandoval's salary which are insanely huge burdens. Somewhere sometime the Red Sox have to pay a price to straighten this mess out. And IMO that's why Dombrowski is sitting on his hands right now waiting to see what the best deal and best salaries to go along to help the team this year and in the future.And in my posts I always leave room for discussion that's why I put a player to be named later or I put a player as a salary dump. Discussions.I won't argue or detract on this Forum.We all have our opinions speculations and that's what this site is built on. Sox draft a player and in somebody's opinion they speculate five years down the road how that player is going to turn out. An argument can be made that Xander is a more valuable player than Abreu is at the very least it is very close. On top of that giving away E-Rod and his cost control makes this a rather large overpay, making a deal like this for Abreu would be a sideways move at best.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 29, 2018 9:13:58 GMT -5
Not to mention that the Sox are also paying $6.5 million for Mitch Moreland, a 1b as well.
If the Red Sox really thought they'd acquire Abreu, they wouldn't have signed Moreland.
They're not paying Moreland, Hanley and his $22 million, and then adding Abreu and taking on additional salary or whatever.
They're not going to shoehorn him onto the roster.
Right now it's pretty much sign JDM or nothing.
And like others have said trading Xander AND E-Rod and others makes absolutely no sense either. Sometimes team just don't match up and that's the way it is.
You're not going to get something for nothing usually.
In all my years of fandom, dating back to 1980, I've seen the Red Sox make two trades where it was like it was too good to be true.
In the winter of 1987 Don Zimmer got tired of hearing Lee Smith mutter MFer under his breath and had Jim Frey get rid of him at the ridiculously low cost of Al Nipper and Calvin Schiraldi. It's like Frank Robinson said, the Cubs traded a horse for two ponies.
The other ridiculous something for nothing deal was during Turkey Day 2003 when the Sox acquired Curt Schilling for Brandon Lyon, Jorge De La Rosa, Michael Goss, and I can't remember the 4th inconsequential piece.
Theo got to make the deal ordering off a menu. Give the DBacks one of Player A/B, one of Player C/D, one of player E/F, and one of player G/H.
So Theo got to pass on dealing Hanley or Lester - he got to choose, which is unheard of.
The reason for this was that the DBacks owner was mad at Steinbrenner for tampering with the Dbacks' efforts to sign David Wells so they demanded a king's ransom from NY: Alfonso Soriano AND Nick Johnson and accepted way less from the Red Sox.
It was the Red Sox good fortune and Steinbrenner paid for that as the Red Sox beat the Yankees with a lot of help from Schilling.
Those are the only times I've seen the Sox make deals that were too good to be true. It can happen, but hardly ever. The ChiSox don't make any deals unless they get Groome and Chavis and others. Anything less, what's the point?
The best fit for the Red Sox is Martinez. Failing to get Martinez, they could try to get Nunez. He'd help but he is no Martinez. He played well for two months but he's nowhere near Martinez's class as an offensive player. At best he'd get the Sox back to the talent level (minus Addison Reed) that they had last September. If they want to improve beyond that level and keep their farm system intact, JD Martinez IS the guy.
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Jose Abreu
Jan 29, 2018 11:15:16 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 11:15:16 GMT -5
The trade-ideas forum is like playing Tic-Tac-Toe.No one wins. I've only been doing this for a short time and have learned that already. So I have some good news and some bad news for you guys I just bought the Boston Red Sox I'm the owner. First things first no more $12 beers it'll be cut in half it'll be now $6, hot dogs a dollar and I'm going to have Hooters girls selling peanuts. Mondays Tuesdays and Wednesdays bleacher seats center field will be $5. April games we'll have a promotion,heated seat pads. Now that I have your attention here is my proposed lineup starting rotation bullpen and bench. Batting order Mookie Betts RF Andrew Benintendi LF Manny Machado SS Jose Abreu DH Rafael Devers 3b Dustin Pedroia 2b Mitch Moreland 1b Christian Vazquez C Jackie Bradley jr. CF
Rotation Chris Sale David Price Yu Darvish Zack Greinke Jeremy Hellickson
Bullpen Craig Kimbrel Carson Smith Felipe Rivero Tony Watson Matt Albers Raisel Iglesias Tanner Houck
Bench Blake Swihart Eduardo Nunez Marco Hernandez Melky Cabrera
Top 10 Prospects Tanner Houck Alex Sherff Mike Shawaryn Cole Brannen CJ Chatham Bobby Dalbec Travis Lakins Austin Maddox Hector Velazquez Brett Netzer
There you go.
And remember what this forum is titled. Trade Proposal Subforum Go nuts,proposed trade ideas here.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 30, 2018 18:12:32 GMT -5
Overpay? Who's the player to be named later? Right now you have Hanley Ramirez and Pablo Sandoval's salary which are insanely huge burdens. Somewhere sometime the Red Sox have to pay a price to straighten this mess out. And IMO that's why Dombrowski is sitting on his hands right now waiting to see what the best deal and best salaries to go along to help the team this year and in the future.And in my posts I always leave room for discussion that's why I put a player to be named later or I put a player as a salary dump. Discussions.I won't argue or detract on this Forum.We all have our opinions speculations and that's what this site is built on. Sox draft a player and in somebody's opinion they speculate five years down the road how that player is going to turn out. An argument can be made that Xander is a more valuable player than Abreu is at the very least it is very close. On top of that giving away E-Rod and his cost control makes this a rather large overpay, making a deal like this for Abreu would be a sideways move at best. Bogaerts is a more valuable player and it's not really close.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 9:37:17 GMT -5
Jose Abreu stats
2014 36hr 107rbi 317ba 383obp 964ops 994fld% 2015 30hr 101rbi 290ba 347obp 850ops 989fld% 2016 25hr 100rbi 293ba 353ops 802ops 993fld% 2017 33hr 102rbi 304ba 354onp 906ops 993fld%
Xander Bogaerts stats
2013 1hr 5rbi 250ba 320obp 684ops 1.000fld% 2014 12hr 46rbi 240ba 297obp 660ops Shortstop 975fld% 3b 910fld% 2015 7hr 81rbi 320ba 355obp 776ops 984fld% 2016 21hr 89rbi 294ba 356obp 802ops 979fld% 2017 10hr 62rbi 273ba 343obp 746ops 969fld%
The numbers speak for themselves. People can say we already have a first baseman Abreu can be a part-time first baseman against left-handers we're signing JDM basically to be a DH. People can say the White Sox aren't going to trade him .What I'm saying is Abreu is a better value than 6 years of JDM 2 years of Abreu is more valuable than Bogaerts 2 years.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 31, 2018 9:47:47 GMT -5
Last 3 seasons: Abreu's fWAR: 4.1, 1.8, 3.2 Bogaert's fWAR: 3.2, 4.9, 4.4
Xander is 6 years younger so he's a lot more likely to be better over the next 2 years, especially considering how much he was hurt last season.
Plus, if you put Abreu at DH instead of 1B, he'd be worth even less.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 31, 2018 10:29:40 GMT -5
Jose Abreu stats 2014 36hr 107rbi 317ba 383obp 964ops 994fld% 2015 30hr 101rbi 290ba 347obp 850ops 989fld% 2016 25hr 100rbi 293ba 353ops 802ops 993fld% 2017 33hr 102rbi 304ba 354onp 906ops 993fld% Xander Bogaerts stats 2013 1hr 5rbi 250ba 320obp 684ops 1.000fld% 2014 12hr 46rbi 240ba 297obp 660ops Shortstop 975fld% 3b 910fld% 2015 7hr 81rbi 320ba 355obp 776ops 984fld% 2016 21hr 89rbi 294ba 356obp 802ops 979fld% 2017 10hr 62rbi 273ba 343obp 746ops 969fld% The numbers speak for themselves. People can say we already have a first baseman Abreu can be a part-time first baseman against left-handers we're signing JDM basically to be a DH. People can say the White Sox aren't going to trade him .What I'm saying is Abreu is a better value than 6 years of JDM 2 years of Abreu is more valuable than Bogaerts 2 years.
You can't say for sure Abreu is a better value. You don't know what a theoretical trade package would look like. That would change the math. If it's for the guys you mentioned in a deal, then great where do we sign up? The reality is that Abreu is very much likely to cost the Sox their top two prospects. And if that is so (not to mention other talent), then the value is probably not better. JDM costs money and nothing else. Abreu costs long-term top notch talent, not that the White Sox have shown any inclincation to trade Abreu.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Feb 3, 2018 1:05:01 GMT -5
Jose Abreu stats 2014 36hr 107rbi 317ba 383obp 964ops 994fld% 2015 30hr 101rbi 290ba 347obp 850ops 989fld% 2016 25hr 100rbi 293ba 353ops 802ops 993fld% 2017 33hr 102rbi 304ba 354onp 906ops 993fld% Xander Bogaerts stats 2013 1hr 5rbi 250ba 320obp 684ops 1.000fld% 2014 12hr 46rbi 240ba 297obp 660ops Shortstop 975fld% 3b 910fld% 2015 7hr 81rbi 320ba 355obp 776ops 984fld% 2016 21hr 89rbi 294ba 356obp 802ops 979fld% 2017 10hr 62rbi 273ba 343obp 746ops 969fld% The numbers speak for themselves. People can say we already have a first baseman Abreu can be a part-time first baseman against left-handers we're signing JDM basically to be a DH. People can say the White Sox aren't going to trade him .What I'm saying is Abreu is a better value than 6 years of JDM 2 years of Abreu is more valuable than Bogaerts 2 years. These numbers say one thing and one thing only: Abreu hits more home runs than X. Not exactly breaking news. But baseball (in this case player value) is more than number of home runs hit— positional value, defense, contract status (years and money owed), resources (prospects, etc) required to acquire “better” player, etc. As jimed already noted X is more valuable than Abreu, plus you want to move Abreu to half- time DH which will reduce his value even more. One subset of numbers rarely speak for themselves. Context matters.
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Post by p23w on Feb 8, 2018 14:59:58 GMT -5
Abreu's value to the Chisox is more than his stats. Once Red Sox fans come to understand this they will drop the notion of acquiring Abreu for the opening day roster. Of course an arrangement could be made. The cost would be something like 3 of the top 5 RS prospects or 4 of the top 10. Abreu's additional value is directly related to relationship with the best prospect on the White Sox. Wait another year and try again.
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Post by soxjim on Feb 14, 2018 8:51:37 GMT -5
How about Eduardo Rodriguez and Chavis for Abreu?
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 14, 2018 11:36:05 GMT -5
I don't really get the idea of trading valuable members of the 2018 team for Abreu. I know that people blanch at the idea of trading prospects, especially with the system so thin, but a team built to win now is just moving its problems around if it trades present value for present value at another position.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 14, 2018 12:14:21 GMT -5
I don't really get the idea of trading valuable members of the 2018 team for Abreu. I know that people blanch at the idea of trading prospects, especially with the system so thin, but a team built to win now is just moving its problems around if it trades present value for present value at another position. Based on an earlier post I think SoxJim means trading E-Rod and Chavis for Abreu contingent upon the Sox signing Alex Cobb who would take E-Rod's place in the rotation. Originally he threw out the idea of dealing E-Rod for Abreu and I said that I would think the ChiSox would want more than E-Rod for Abreu and that they'd probably want Chavis, too. I have trouble believing they'd make a 1 for 1 E-Rod for Abreu swap when they've been pretty adamant that they don't really want to deal Abreu unless they get a ton for him. I believe he prefers this to simply signing JD Martinez because he wouldn't want to go beyond 5 years $110 million for a DH if need be, and by signing Cobb and dealing for Abreu you have more flexibility. SoxJim, if I'm mistaken, I apologize, but I think the sign Cobb piece of this was part of your intent? Personally, while I think it's an interesting alternative approach, I prefer the Sox hang onto Chavis as I believe they will eventually need him at 2b or LF or 1b at some point soon and he can be productive and very inexpensive. I'm also curious what E-Rod can do with a healthy knee, and while he's getting more expensive, it's nice to have a young starter with his best years ahead of him (I hope) that doesn't cost $20 million/year or so. Also, with Abreu, the Sox would have three guys who are basically 1b and/or DH. With Martinez, even with his deficiencies defensively, I like that if one of the outfielders goes on the 15 day DL, or needs several days off, Martinez can be a viable LF (he can't be worse than Hanley out there, can he? And I've survived the Manny and Greenwell and even Wil Cordero experiences in LF), allowing Moreland to play 1b and Hanley to DH. You can't really do that with Abreu as none of Hanley (as he has proven), Moreland, or Abreu can play the OF. I just think Martinez fits the roster a lot better, and I think it's a lot simpler and we can keep E-Rod and Chavis.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 14, 2018 14:48:04 GMT -5
Right. I'd rather have Martinez, Chavis, and Rodriguez than Cobb and Abreu - especially since the Cobb/Abreu duo would be significantly more expensive in 2018. The former would leave money over to sign an additional piece (a Tony Watson or something) or make an in-season upgrade if necessary.
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Post by soxjim on Feb 14, 2018 23:01:49 GMT -5
I don't really get the idea of trading valuable members of the 2018 team for Abreu. I know that people blanch at the idea of trading prospects, especially with the system so thin, but a team built to win now is just moving its problems around if it trades present value for present value at another position. Based on an earlier post I think SoxJim means trading E-Rod and Chavis for Abreu contingent upon the Sox signing Alex Cobb who would take E-Rod's place in the rotation. Originally he threw out the idea of dealing E-Rod for Abreu and I said that I would think the ChiSox would want more than E-Rod for Abreu and that they'd probably want Chavis, too. I have trouble believing they'd make a 1 for 1 E-Rod for Abreu swap when they've been pretty adamant that they don't really want to deal Abreu unless they get a ton for him. I believe he prefers this to simply signing JD Martinez because he wouldn't want to go beyond 5 years $110 million for a DH if need be, and by signing Cobb and dealing for Abreu you have more flexibility. SoxJim, if I'm mistaken, I apologize, but I think the sign Cobb piece of this was part of your intent? Personally, while I think it's an interesting alternative approach, I prefer the Sox hang onto Chavis as I believe they will eventually need him at 2b or LF or 1b at some point soon and he can be productive and very inexpensive. I'm also curious what E-Rod can do with a healthy knee, and while he's getting more expensive, it's nice to have a young starter with his best years ahead of him (I hope) that doesn't cost $20 million/year or so. Also, with Abreu, the Sox would have three guys who are basically 1b and/or DH. With Martinez, even with his deficiencies defensively, I like that if one of the outfielders goes on the 15 day DL, or needs several days off, Martinez can be a viable LF (he can't be worse than Hanley out there, can he? And I've survived the Manny and Greenwell and even Wil Cordero experiences in LF), allowing Moreland to play 1b and Hanley to DH. You can't really do that with Abreu as none of Hanley (as he has proven), Moreland, or Abreu can play the OF. I just think Martinez fits the roster a lot better, and I think it's a lot simpler and we can keep E-Rod and Chavis. Yes! Yes! Yes! Thank you. Was at work so I couldn't reply. I just want to make a point to you which I'm about to also make with James. I am not arguing which is better. But I am offering an alternative. You and I know others don't think the Sox will get JDM now. So instead of "comparing" -- what do you think of these moves? Do they make the Sox stronger and is the trade a fair one? I'm curious. Not arguing. With trades I have no idea. But I think it seems fair.
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